Trilingualism

[WeeBeastie]

To ilustrate the point...

Suppose I sign this:

And I don't know English. I rely on an interpreter.

I happen to be in New Jersey. Would the interpreter call it "pop" or "soda"?

Okay, let say I am in Texas with a Texan interpreter.

Is that sign translated as "pop" or "soda"?

Same sign. Two different translated words.

In Texas, I believe it would be called a 'coke'.

See this visual

I have also seen that sign used for the term 'soft drink' and when referring to Kool Aid type drinks (when not referring to a specific brand).

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

In Texas, I believe it would be called a 'coke'.

See this visual
I have also seen that sign used for the term 'soft drink' and when referring to Kool Aid type drinks (when not referring to a specific brand).

for the correction.

 

[CJB]

This is my point. That is confusing and why can't there be a standard sign for country.

I am not talking about different countries. I get that there will be differences between coutries. What I am talking about is within the USA there are differences depending on the region.

There are regional differences in spoken English within the U.S. You vs. y'all, turn on/off the lights vs. cut on/off the lights, I might be able to, I might could, I'm getting ready to, I'm fixing to, freeway vs. highway. The list goes on and on.

Languages, whether signed or spoken, will always have variations. Doesn't matter if you're talking about different regions of the same country, different countries with the same language, or different languages. Languages rarely have a word that has a complete one-to-one translation with another word from another language.

You can try to fight it but in the end it's probably easier just to learn the most variations possible so you can understand the widest group of speakers possible.

 

[jillio]

I disagree. I am not talking about synonyms. I am talking about the same word with the same definition in the same context. Different signs. WHY?? It's confusing.

English poses the same difficulty. Why should it be so much more difficult in ASL than in any other language?

 

[A]

In Texas, I believe it would be called a 'coke'.

See this visual

I have also seen that sign used for the term 'soft drink' and when referring to Kool Aid type drinks (when not referring to a specific brand).

yes, why don't everyone just call it soda?

 

[WeeBeastie]

yes, why don't the everyone just call it soda?

Because they don't want to? Why should they?

I really like the regional dialects around the country. It gives the language a dramatic flair and uniqueness. How boring would it be if every talked the same?

 

[A]

exactly

 

[CJB]

yes, why don't the everyone just call it soda?

While we're at it, why don't the Icelandic and Aboriginees and and Turkish and Javanese and Luxembourgish call it soda too?

 

[A]

While we're at it, why don't the Icelandic and Aboriginees and and Turkish and Javanese and Luxembourgish call it soda too?

yeah. Do they have anything against the American way of pronouncing it? of course, I'm just teasing.

 

[Anij]

Out east, they call it a Chesterfield.
Out west, they call it... a couch.

Right but those are two different words. That is not what I am talking about. Same word, same context - different signs.

ACTUALLY - it's ONE object, one sign, and two English words for the exact same thing ... basically the exact same "problem" as you find with regional ASL.

In truth - for MOST ASLERs - having a few words (comparatively) were there are 1,2 or 3 different signs that are indicators of a single object/English word - just isn't a "problem" - it's exactly the same issue that hearing people have with spoken/written word variations.

If there's confusion about what a word, or sign MEANS - then it's usually easy to clarify (by using the sign in a sentence, fingerspelling, using another sign that means the same, or similar thing and explaining the subtle difference ... basically you do in ASL exactly what hearing people do with English ALL the TIME.

Hearing people visiting parts of the USA will be confused if someone talks about a "buggy" - because most other places it's called a "shopping cart", however it's not as if this causes a communication breakdown, because people just say "sorry I'm not from here -what is a buggy ?" and the other person will say something like "when you go grocery shopping etc it's the thing you put the food in and push around" (miming pushing a cart)....then the "visitor" says to make sure they understand " Oh - a shopping cart, that you pick up in the parking lot or near the entrance of the stores ?".


To think - or expect that ANY language - at least a LIVING language will be IDENTICAL throughout it's user group is unrealistic ... instead of thinking of variances as a negative - instead see them as PROOF that ASL is a healthy living language - and the regional differences provide an opportunity to learn MORE about OUR language & the share our signs !

 

[CJB]

ACTUALLY - it's ONE object, one sign, and two English words for the exact same thing ... basically the exact same "problem" as you find with regional ASL.

In truth - for MOST ASLERs - having a few words (comparatively) were there are 1,2 or 3 different signs that are indicators of a single object/English word - just isn't a "problem" - it's exactly the same issue that hearing people have with spoken/written word variations.

If there's confusion about what a word, or sign MEANS - then it's usually easy to clarify (by using the sign in a sentence, fingerspelling, using another sign that means the same, or similar thing and explaining the subtle difference ... basically you do in ASL exactly what hearing people do with English ALL the TIME.

Hearing people visiting parts of the USA will be confused if someone talks about a "buggy" - because most other places it's called a "shopping cart", however it's not as if this causes a communication breakdown, because people just say "sorry I'm not from here -what is a buggy ?" and the other person will say something like "when you go grocery shopping etc it's the thing you put the food in and push around" (miming pushing a cart)....then the "visitor" says to make sure they understand " Oh - a shopping cart, that you pick up in the parking lot or near the entrance of the stores ?".


To think - or expect that ANY language - at least a LIVING language will be IDENTICAL throughout it's user group is unrealistic ... instead of thinking of variances as a negative - instead see them as PROOF that ASL is a healthy living language - and the regional differences provide an opportunity to learn MORE about OUR language & the share our signs !

 

[rockdrummer]

*sighs*

Do you have a second fluent language? Other than English?

I am working on ASL but am not yet fluent. Starting to learn a second language this late in my life is hard enough without the additional challenges of the lack of structure and consistency that ASL poses.

 

[rockdrummer]

It's exactly the same. a sign *is* a word.

An everyday example for me would be siging 'cereal'. We have 2 signs for it and we use them interchangeably. There's no confusion. Same with 'pizza'.

Why do you have two signs for it if it is the same word, same definition and same context?

 

[rockdrummer]

If you want to add more confusion, I never understood why we have so many signing method for the deaf. Cue, SEE, PSE, etc.

I wouldn't worry about "accent" signing. No one else really have a problem with it.

I have a thread titled "why so many signing systems" so I am in part with you on that. However, I do understand "the intent" behind some of them and I also understand how some have evolved.

 

[shel90]

If you want to add more confusion, I never understood why we have so many signing method for the deaf. Cue, SEE, PSE, etc.
I wouldn't worry about "accent" signing. No one else really have a problem with it.

Blame those who think they can manipulate a language to fit their own language. That's why those systems failed.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

Wirelessly posted

*sighs*

Do you have a second fluent language? Other than English?

I am working on ASL but am not yet fluent. Starting to learn a second language this late in my life is hard enough without the additional challenges of the lack of structure and consistency that ASL poses.

Ah, I was hoping if you know Spanish or German.. French et cetera, I could explain it better.

 

[shel90]

I am working on ASL but am not yet fluent. Starting to learn a second language this late in my life is hard enough without the additional challenges of the lack of structure and consistency that ASL poses.

ASL is consistent and has structure. It will never follow English's rules.

 

[WeeBeastie]

Why do you have two signs for it if it is the same word, same definition and same context?

Because there are 2 signs for it. We learned one locally and the other from the Signing Time series. Signing Time is based on the west coast, so there is some regional variation to the signs presented, for this specific sign I've seen it used pretty widely.

Is it so terrible to expand one's vocabulary? If you expect standardization in ASL, I'm assuming you feel the same about English.

Are you this adverse to variation in other aspects of your life?

 

[WeeBeastie]

I am working on ASL but am not yet fluent. Starting to learn a second language this late in my life is hard enough without the additional challenges of the lack of structure and consistency that ASL poses.

How are you learning ASL? It really sounds like you could use some assistance.

If you are not learning structure and rules of the language, you're just learning words. Without syntax, grammar, classifiers and proper expression, you're only learning a fraction of the skills needed.

 

[Anij]

Why do you have two signs for it if it is the same word, same definition and same context?

For the same reason that ALL languages do including English, French, Spanish etc.... it's just an aspect of the language.


It seems that you are seeing this issue of having more than one sign for a single object/item/expression etc as a "problem" unique to ASL, and something that is an indicator that ASL is less developed, less refined or lacking in some way - however I can honestly tell you this is NOT at all the case. In fact if you study linguistics you'll find that ALL languages have the exact same "issue" of "multiple names" for objects/expressions etc.


ASL for example has 2 signs that both mean CEREAL, BIRTHDAY, EMAIL etc for the exact same reasons that English has two words (spoken&written) that means:
couch/chesterfield
soda/pop
cart/buggy
thong/flip-flop/sandal


These "quirks" are present in ALL language- and occur in part because healthy languages develop in multiple locations simultaneously - so occasionally a groups of native users in one location will create a slang/new word for an object that happens to have a different word/sign somewhere else. This isn't a problem, it's simply a variation.

If you are teaching/learning with a young child (since this seems to be a concern of yours) - when you talk about that object you simply explain that it has two signs, and that both are proper but some people prefer one way and others prefer another. It's honestly not that "big" a deal. In fact it's an OPPORTUNITY to explain how many people use ASL and how just like in the hearing world their are different accents and different slangs for things ... ASL is exactly the same.

If you are playing a game, or memory recall activities involving:
1)pictures or objects
2)names of objects
3)the ASL sign for the object

If a certain "thing" has more than one ASL sign, ask for both. So for CEREAL if the student/child signs back CEREAL (1), then the person leading the activity (teacher, parent, friend etc) simply says something like "right, there are two signs for C+E+R+E+A+L (fingerspelling cereal) do you remember what the other sign is?" . Then the student/child signs the 2nd ASL sign for CEREAL (2) if they know it, if not the leader shows the other sign, then has the student/child repeat back both signs to help "lock it" in their memory.

For a student learning the language - it's only going to be frustrating if they - or their teacher have decided to MAKE is frustrating, if instead they decide that it is an opportunity to learn more about ASL as a growing language then honestly - it CAN be FUN.

FWIW - Although I've been Hoh since birth, I didn't learn the language of ASL (I knew thousands of signs, but not the LANGUAGE until I was almost an adult) and this mindset makes a tremendous difference in not only how well you learn, but also how you understand the language ... being open-minded and not trying to make ASL into a "form of English" makes a huge difference. Honest.