to those BORN with severe-profound hearing loss

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Cloggy said:
Very good point...
I have.. In Denmark, Bangladesh, Greece, Spain, Italy..

When I started to work in Norway, and started to learn the language, I was tired after 12 hour shifts. Dutch and English I can follow without effort, but for Norwegian I needed to focus.. Yes.. it's tiresome..
Nowadays, with my Norwegian improved, I do not have that problem any more..

Like it or not.. very few people know sign language.
If you want to prevent getting tired of listening intensely to a language, the best thing to do is to get 100% familiar with it. And hearing would help with that.
I don't expect people in Greece to speak Dutch to me.. You cannot expect people in USA to "speak" sign language to you..
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Jane B. said:
[/B]

That is a best case scenario; but it takes at least two people that know sign language for that to work.
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BecLak said:
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An unsuccessful try in twisting the point I was making and downright mean! As I already replied to Jane B. That is why accommodation is made to have sign language interpreters[/B].
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BecLak said:
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P.s. you have most likely never had to speech read or go the whole day with everything on mute. I was not referring to learning foreign languages by the way.
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BecLak you take offense at what Cloggy said but it is very true at least in parts of the USA! It has been literally years since I have seen anyone sign in public in the Southern Illinois town where I live. Also, I took an ASL beginning course two different years through the local community college and both times I made NO contacts to continue developing skills and actually use it.

I lost all hearing in my left ear at the age of 5 after an illness. A loss in the right did not become evident until around 40 years ago. At this point the right is also profound and I use a combination of a hearing aid and lip reading with pen & paper always at hand to use if needed. So. . .I am not speaking as someone that does not deal with the issues at hand.

PS I seem to have gotten one of my "quotes" out of order but I have enough else to get to at this time that I hope everyone understands if I do not try to change it now.
 
BecLak said:
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That's why for the most part you have the accommodation of interpreters, but without sign language the Dhh person is lost.
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You are making a strong case against sign language if you really believe that without the accommodation of an ($60/hr, $1000/day) interpreter, DHH people who use sign are "lost."

I neither believe that most DHH require a terp by their sides all day, everyday, nor that communication should ever be limited to any one mode. A DHH person isn't "lost" if he or she has multiple means of communicating (sign, spoken, written languages).
 
BecLak said:
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An unsuccessful try in twisting the point I was making and downright mean! As I already replied to Jane B. That is why accommodation is made to have sign language interpreters.
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BecLak said:
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That's why for the most part you have the accommodation of interpreters, but without sign language the Dhh person is lost.
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With that philosophy that means that "without sign language interpreters the Dhh person is lost.:"
I understand that you want everyone to learn sign language, but that is not realistic. In USA they might first start with "everyone speaking Spanish" before they would start with ASL.. and I think that that is not going to happen.

So.. with "everyone speaking ASL" not being a realistic idea, it's time to accept that ASL is a minority language. And it will stay like that.

Suzanne..
When we heard that Lotte was deaf we immediately started with sign.. because we believed communication is the most important thing in life. We also looked into the future and wanted Lotte to be able to communicate with more people than the small group of people that knew sign language or were willing to learn sign language. Hence, our decision to let her hear with CI...
And expectations are different for each child. It depends on the child, on the parents, on the social system around her, the school etc...
And sure.. An operation is scary, but we decided not to let any fear from our side stand in the way of communication for our daughter.
And - of course she would have had no problem learning sign. Nor would we... but in the end.. no matter how fluent you are.. you are still limited in your communication with the rest of the wereld..
 
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I am definitely not lost without an interpreter. I can always find a way to communicate. And I don't really get tired from it either.
 
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Cloggy said:
BecLak said:
An unsuccessful try in twisting the point I was making and downright mean! As I already replied to Jane B. That is why accommodation is made to have sign language interpreters.
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BecLak said:
That's why for the most part you have the accommodation of interpreters, but without sign language the Dhh person is lost.
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With that philosophy that means that "without sign language interpreters the Dhh person is lost.:"
I understand that you want everyone to learn sign language, but that is not realistic. In USA they might first start with "everyone speaking Spanish" before they would start with ASL.. and I think that that is not going to happen.

So.. with "everyone speaking ASL" not being a realistic idea, it's time to accept that ASL is a minority language. And it will stay like that.

Suzanne..
When we heard that Lotte was deaf we immediately started with sign.. because we believed communication is the most important thing in life. We also looked into the future and wanted Lotte to be able to communicate with more people than the small group of people that knew sign language or were willing to learn sign language. Hence, our decision to let her hear with CI...
And expectations are different for each child. It depends on the child, on the parents, on the social system around her, the school etc...
And sure.. An operation is scary, but we decided not to let any fear from our side stand in the way of communication for our daughter.
And - of course she would have had no problem learning sign. Nor would we... but in the end.. no matter how fluent you are.. you are still limited in your communication with the rest of the wereld..
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It is incredible that you think you can get away with blatantly twisting someone's words! I never said people had to rely on interpreters. . Bottesini nailed it in what she said - you can always find a way to communicate. If people who rely entirely on speech and sound could even put 10% of the effort it takes to make a Dhh person speak and 'hear' into actual communicating with a Dhh person visually or non-verbally, then communication would be fair for all concerned. There are many ways to communicate non-verbally.
 
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BecLak said:
It is incredible that you think you can get away with blatantly twisting someone's words! I never said people had to rely on interpreters. . Bottesini nailed it in what she said - you can always find a way to communicate. If people who rely entirely on speech and sound could even put 10% of the effort it takes to make a Dhh person speak and 'hear' into actual communicating with a Dhh person visually or non-verbally, then communication would be fair for all concerned.
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They want the deaf to communicate their way, which is voice and hearing. No signs. Learn to hear and speak, and the whole world sings.

Now, if the USA can take over the world, we can declare English the official language, world-wide. We already try to impose our laws and ideologies on everyone, so why not?
 
saywhatkid said:
They want the deaf to communicate their way, which is voice and hearing. No signs. Learn to hear and speak, and the whole world sings.
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I wouldn't worry about it. It explains the confusion some have regarding convenience.
 
BecLak said:
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It is incredible that you think you can get away with blatantly twisting someone's words! I never said people had to rely on interpreters. . Bottesini nailed it in what she said - you can always find a way to communicate. If people who rely entirely on speech and sound could even put 10% of the effort it takes to make a Dhh person speak and 'hear' into actual communicating with a Dhh person visually or non-verbally, then communication would be fair for all concerned. There are many ways to communicate non-verbally.
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No one is twisting your words just pointing out how for many, they have found a different way to communicate then unrealistically thinking an interpreter will be tethered to their side 24/7/365 or carrying a pen and paper--they are doing so orally. If that is their preferred method of communicating with the over 99% of the population who also communicates orally, who are you to tell them to do so differently? If you have chosen a different means and it works for you fine, but recognize that people are different.
 
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You don't listen too well for someone who harps about depending on speech, sound, and listening! Just saying.
 
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Believe me, I hear you loud and clear. You are very simple to figure out.
 
Look, the biggest reason I'm learning sign language is so I can have a community of people that I can talk to and shoot the breeze with, without having communication barriers.

It's not so I can talk to my boss. Or my teacher. I don't necessarily need sign language for that, even though it is hard for me to understand them.

It's so I can actually take part in and understand group conversations for the first time in my life. It's so that I'm actually a part of things rather than in a bubble floating along.

I might not be able to have this in all areas of my life, but at least I can have it in one place, among those who are like me.

People are talking about accommodations and whether "everyone" uses sign. Of course not everyone does. That's not the point. It's about quality of life.

Edit: I think one thing that debates like this miss, is the human cycle of life. All our lives go way, way beyond K-12 school. Or college. We are spending a lifetime with deafness. What do we need to be happy? Who do we need around us? Accommodation is one thing, but we need a space to be ourselves and not struggle so damn much to understand and be understood. In my view, that's where the deaf community and sign language comes in.
 
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GrendelQ said:
Right. So then if you were not rendered non-functional when your HA died for a year, why do you assume other students will become non-functional if their FM or CI is out of order for a day or 2 until a new one is overnighted?
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My hearing aid did not die for a year. I chose to go unaided, since I had surgery that improved my hearing. ( canal plasty which then closed up. I am back to pre surgery listening levels...meaning moderately severe, when after the surgery it was mild-moderate) I also managed well since I am a very talented speech reader. Many of my hearing friends have picked it up from me, so we can have "spoken" conversations without even making a sound.
I also have not used an FM since 89, and have done fine.
I am not saying that they will become nonfunctional, but on the other hand we DO have a kid who was trained in AVT. When both of his CIs broke, he was completely and utterly lost. I strongly believe that kids should have the right to a FULL toolbox, so that it really doesn't matter when technology fails, and so they don't have to overnight an FM or a CI or a HA...they can just code switch. And you miss my point....even a kid who is a talented speech reader expends a lot of energy on hearing and speaking. (Functioning as "normal" in other words) Imagine if an oral only kid ALSO had the tool of ASL...they wouldn't have to work so hard, and they could expend energy on CONTENT, rather then saying "boo bee bah" correctly.
 
rick48 said:
No one is twisting your words just pointing out how for many, they have found a different way to communicate then unrealistically thinking an interpreter will be tethered to their side 24/7/365 or carrying a pen and paper--they are doing so orally. If that is their preferred method of communicating with the over 99% of the population who also communicates orally, who are you to tell them to do so differently? If you have chosen a different means and it works for you fine, but recognize that people are different.
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Rick, and the other hearing parents FYI, but the number of Sign only ( no speech ability) people is very small. But with Sign fluency orally trained people can USE a terp. I find it ironic as heck that oral only people say there's " freedom in listening and talking" but then moan and complain bc they can't use terps. besides, aren't oral only people tethered to FM devices, C print, hearing aids/CIs and ORAL terps?!?
 
DeafBadger said:
Look, the biggest reason I'm learning sign language is so I can have a community of people that I can talk to and shoot the breeze with, without having communication barriers.

It's not so I can talk to my boss. Or my teacher. I don't necessarily need sign language for that, even though it is hard for me to understand them.

It's so I can actually take part in and understand group conversations for the first time in my life. It's so that I'm actually a part of things rather than in a bubble floating along.

I might not be able to have this in all areas of my life, but at least I can have it in one place, among those who are like me.

People are talking about accommodations and whether "everyone" uses sign. Of course not everyone does. That's not the point. It's about quality of life.

Edit: I think one thing that debates like this miss, is the human cycle of life. All our lives go way, way beyond K-12 school. Or college. We are spending a lifetime with deafness. What do we need to be happy? Who do we need around us? Accommodation is one thing, but we need a space to be ourselves and not struggle so damn much to understand and be understood. In my view, that's where the deaf community and sign language comes in.
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THIS times a million!!!!!
 
deafdyke said:
Rick, and the other hearing parents FYI, but the number of Sign only ( no speech ability) people is very small. But with Sign fluency orally trained people can USE a terp. I find it ironic as heck that oral only people say there's " freedom in listening and talking" but then moan and complain bc they can't use terps. besides, aren't oral only people tethered to FM devices, C print, hearing aids/CIs and ORAL terps?!?
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Why do you consider having a fingernail-sized piece of technology clipped to an HA or FM or getting a print out of the class notes to be "tethering" a child, but having a grown ASL terp as an intermediary in every casual conversation with other kids or sports situation or classroom environment to be freedom?

You say "but the number of Sign only ( no speech ability) people is very small" -- I believe that's one of the arguments used by those who don't see learning sign as a valuable use of time.
 
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There are many ways to communicate non-verbally without relying on interpreters. It is just that some like to have them in classroom settings, at church, or seminars. I certainly don't have an interpreter following me around everywhere and I know a number of people like me, who communicate very well without one even though they are voice off.
 
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GrendelQ said:
Why do you consider having a fingernail-sized piece of technology clipped to an HA or FM or getting a print out of the class notes to be "tethering" a child, but having a grown ASL terp as an intermediary in every casual conversation with other kids or sports situation or classroom environment to be freedom?

You say "but the number of Sign only ( no speech ability) people is very small" -- I believe that's one of the arguments used by those who don't see learning sign as a valuable use of time.
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WHAT THE EFF?!?! You know very well that I am very much pro bilingualism. I am not arguing for a voice off approach, at all. Being able to use a terp, doesn't mean that a terp is some sort of personal care attendant. FYI the number of kids who use both is pretty high....also, I think a printout of what the instructor says is very valuable. I think C print blows note takers out of the water...
Also, the number of people who speak Dine (Navajo) is quite low, but nobody is arguing that Navajo kids need to be limited to English.
 
deafdyke said:
WHAT THE EFF?!?! You know very well that I am very much pro bilingualism. I am not arguing for a voice off approach, at all. Being able to use a terp, doesn't mean that a terp is some sort of personal care attendant. FYI the number of kids who use both is pretty high....also, I think a printout of what the instructor says is very valuable. I think C print blows note takers out of the water...
Also, the number of people who speak Dine (Navajo) is quite low, but nobody is arguing that Navajo kids need to be limited to English.
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DD- what you are missing is her point. Your response is going 15 different directions... and you didn't answer her question.
 
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