Survey of Bi-Bi programs - Empirical Article

[jillio]

Ya know what's even worse? Doing ANOVAs by hand THEN using Matlab programming to verify your answers. That's just cruel when you KNOW you will also do the easier method too!

OOOO! Cruel and unusual punishment!

 

[jillio]

Ya know what's even worse? Doing ANOVAs by hand THEN using Matlab programming to verify your answers. That's just cruel when you KNOW you will also do the easier method too!

Back on topic: Food for thought - who is more likely to NOT show up on statistics? The deaf kids who are doing well or the ones who are doing bad?

Actually, the ones that are doing bad are more likely to not show up, especially if a self report survey is used. Those responding are most likely doing well, and willing to participate. A lot would be dependent upon the method of participant selection. The most accurrate method, in the case of data such as reading levels, would be a meta-analysis of scores for testing that is required of all students.

 

[deafskeptic]

probably one of those types who write like this

I would hope so. Writing like this is enough to make my head hurt. :P

 

[faire_jour]

More children don't attend bi-bi programs. And children continue to attend TC programs because people are willing to accept the status quo rather than to make the effort to stand up and demand excellence in education for deaf children.

And, it is not just me that claims it. The research supports it, and the literacy rates of deaf children support it, and many many deaf adults support it. Tell me, how do you explain the embarrassingly low literacy rates of deaf children? If my explanation is wrong,as you seem to be suggesting it is, then there must be an alternative explanation. What is it?

Honestly, the reason I nearly chose TC for my daughter was because of the oral component. I want my child to learn to speak. It is as simple as that. The bi-bi school put very little emphasis on spoken language and that made me unhappy. Parents don't choose TC because they believe the status quo is ok, the TC programs offer them something they don't feel like they can get from bi-bi.

 

[Cheri]

Honestly, the reason I nearly chose TC for my daughter was because of the oral component. I want my child to learn to speak. It is as simple as that. The bi-bi school put very little emphasis on spoken language and that made me unhappy. Parents don't choose TC because they believe the status quo is ok, the TC programs offer them something they don't feel like they can get from bi-bi.

Does your daughter have any spoken language skills or a little?

 

[faire_jour]

Does your daughter have any spoken language skills or a little?

She parrots well, and can understand a few dozen very familiar words. She is able to pick out words and phrases when given a few choices. Her therapists say that she is doing all that is possible for her with her loss. That what is coming out (that is largely unintelligable) is exactly what she hears going in. And that her speech isn't going to get better until her hearing improves and thus the CI.

 

[shel90]

Honestly, the reason I nearly chose TC for my daughter was because of the oral component. I want my child to learn to speak. It is as simple as that. The bi-bi school put very little emphasis on spoken language and that made me unhappy. Parents don't choose TC because they believe the status quo is ok, the TC programs offer them something they don't feel like they can get from bi-bi.

U mean u want spoken language in the classroom when concepts are taught?

 

[faire_jour]

U mean u want spoken language in the classroom when concepts are taught?

It is incredibly hard to learn to use a language you are not exposed to. A child can not learn spoken language in 2 hours a week therapy sessions.

 

[shel90]

Ok...imagine yourself in this..


Hearing person...turn the volume off or cut about 50 % of what is being said on the tv and try to lipread everyone in the movies or shows.

Deaf people...turn the captions off on the tv and try to lipread everyone in the movies or shows?

Easy to follow or hard?

That's what happens in an oral only environment.


Now..for the TC approach...

imagine a TV show where the characters arent consistent with one language, speaking English using ASL syntax, using ASL using English syntax, using Spanish with English syntax, or using two languages at the same time, or speaking but dropping the visual language or using visual language but dropping the spoken language.

Hard to get a consistent model of the languages.

For BiBi...one language is used at a time..never mixing them up. More consistent and accurate use of language.

CS...I dont know since I need to learn it and observe it in a classroom setting.

 

[shel90]

It is incredibly hard to learn to use a language you are not exposed to. A child can not learn spoken language in 2 hours a week therapy sessions.

Spoken language at home?

 

[faire_jour]

Spoken language at home?

You are suggesting that a family choose not to learn sign and use only spoken language at home? I thought that you believed that would fracture families and leave the deaf child unable to communicate.

 

[faire_jour]

Ok...imagine yourself in this..
Hearing person...turn the volume off or cut about 50 % of what is being said on the tv and try to lipread everyone in the movies or shows.

The whole point of getting her a CI is to allow better than 50% access to spoken language.

 

[shel90]

Something is not right here; What makes hearing people more qualified than deaf people? Then in that case that means we all should allow doctors, educators, professionals to share their opinions of what they saw in the deaf educational setting too even if that means they support the AGB Association. Ok then have it your way.

Well, u kept saying that everyone has the right to their opinion so which one is it? U are confusing me and that is not an attack but honestly, I am really confused because u got mad at me a while ago about people not having the right to an opinion because they are not teachers...fine, I will respect that and now u are saying the opposite?

 

[shel90]

Excellent point Cheri,

While we are on this subject, how can a hearing person (who has no experience in deaf education) say a program that failed the majority of deaf students because of lack of English skills when the program itself wasn't the problem, it's the teaching. When I mainstreamed, there was no interepters, notetaker, tutor, or any special help. I was so far behind in most of my classes, unable to understand what's being said or taught during class. How can deaf child (who is unable to hear well with hearing aids) understand what the teacher is trying to say 6-7 hours a day with no sign language, I don't see how I am going to learn anything.

Total Communication had absolutely nothing to do with my lack of English skills since I did not attend this program until much later. :roll:

Now, I get a better understanding of why you and Cheri value the TC system.

Ok, if I am reading u correctly..the oral-only approach failed you and Cheri so the TC approach was your "lifesaver"? Help me understand here...thanks!

I dont blame u for your struggles growing up as I went thru the same thing too.

I would choose TC over oral-only only but I just wish the teachers in the TC programs (the ones I have saw) use a consistent language instead of Sim-Comming giving the kids inaccurate models of both languages. That's my big issue with the TC approach.

Like I said, it is probably better for one-on-one situations but to meet the philosophy standards, it is nearly impossible in a large group lesson. Nobody can do oral, ASL, SEE, CS, Sim-com all in one lesson. If they can do it..then they are miracle teachers!

Not mocking or anything...what I have seen in the TC programs I have worked, observed and did my practicums at were like the ones I described above. The kids were lost and confused most of the time.

 

[shel90]

The whole point of getting her a CI is to allow better than 50% access to spoken language.

Good luck!

 

[shel90]

You are suggesting that a family choose not to learn sign and use only spoken language at home? I thought that you believed that would fracture families and leave the deaf child unable to communicate.

Fracture families? Not my words...I said, it would leave the child out a lot.

Not suggesting anyone not to learn sign language. Kinda like use sign language 50% of the time and spoken language the other 50% of the time? Just trying to help you here, that's all.

FYI..lots of deaf people were able to acquire fluency in English before CIs. I am one of them.

 

[faire_jour]

Good luck!

I guess you and I have very different experiences with CI kids. I know dozens who can hear speech down to what is considered "normal hearing". I know several who have parents who use ASL every single day, and then the children finally say "Mom, stop. I can understand your words", kids who are offered both, and then choose speech, because they can access it easily. I know this is not always the case, but it is the hope. Why do you shrug those cases aside? Why is it that your cases are normal and mine are the exceptions? Isn't it possible that it is the other way around? That lots of CI kids are doing well, and you are only seeing the failures, and that is coloring your view?

 

[shel90]

I guess you and I have very different experiences with CI kids. I know dozens who can hear speech down to what is considered "normal hearing". I know several who have parents who use ASL every single day, and then the children finally say "Mom, stop. I can understand your words", kids who are offered both, and then choose speech, because they can access it easily. I know this is not always the case, but it is the hope. Why do you shrug those cases aside? Why is it that your cases are normal and mine are the exceptions? Isn't it possible that it is the other way around? That lots of CI kids are doing well, and you are only seeing the failures, and that is coloring your view?

I have a few studetns with CIs who are able to code switch both languages fine.

I dont like putting any kids for any risks for language delays during their early years. That's my whole point.

I am seeing the failures cuz the parents want oral-only programs for them and when it isnt working, they are referred to our program with ASL as a last resort.

I thought I have explained that several times? As for coloring my view? I have no idea what you are talking about. I never said anything negative about kids getting implanted so what are u trying to get at?

 

[faire_jour]

FYI..lots of deaf people were able to acquire fluency in English before CIs. I am one of them.

My daughter's speech therapist has been in the field for 30 years. She said before CI's about 10% of profoundly deaf kids were able to obtain fluent intelligeable speech, 90% couldn't. Now, with CI's it is reversed. 90% do and only about 10% can't. That is a huge difference in one generation.

 

[shel90]

My daughter's speech therapist has been in the field for 30 years. She said before CI's about 10% of profoundly deaf kids were able to obtain fluent intelligeable speech, 90% couldn't. Now, with CI's it is reversed. 90% do and only about 10% can't. That is a huge difference in one generation.

Ok good for them. I wasnt talking about speech.l...I was talking about both speech and literacy skills in English. Many deaf people I know dont have intelligible speech skills but have high literacy skills in English sooo...if speech is your focus, then were are on different paths of thinking.