Something to think about re oral only/mainstreaming

faire_jour said:
Wirelessly posted

jillio knows that she has never once responded to me asking for data. She has, in fact, always said exactly what she said this time, as well as saying that i should pay her to do the research, or that she isn't going to spoon feed me.

also, when i post research that shows something different, she claims it is biased.

but, none of that matters because my post was directed at dd who made the claim.

also, grendel, please follow up and let us know if jillio does actually give you any information. Come by, say, once a week and let us know!
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There is a reason that I don't respond to you. Childish and inflaming posts such as this are only one of those reasons.

The discussion prior was between Grendel and myself. Frankly, that discussion is none of your business, and you have virtually no reason to comment other than to try to start another of your childish fights. Grow up, FJ.

Fact: I have responded to numerous posters requests for research. I have emailed whole documents to many posters. I have provided you with the citation information you need in order for you to find that research. You simply don't want to take responsibilty for your own knowledge. You want someone to give it to you without you having to make any effort whatsoever. Something for nothing. Life doesn't work that way.
 
deafdyke said:
So, a big part of the reason why a lot of hearing parents opt for oral only or mainstreaming, is b/c they feel that it's a much better academic enviroment. Yet I was reading Forbidden Signs. They said that 90% of learning at school happens OUTSIDE of the classroom/formal lesson plans.....Would a mainstreamed/oral student have ccess to that "unwritten curricuum?
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as a public school profound deaf student k-12th (no deaf program- meaning no AVT, bi-bi, sign language, etc.).. yes. I did most of my "figuring out" outside of class... especially while doing homework. and more on the internet as time goes by.

This is probably why homeworks is so helpful for both hearing and deaf.
 
kokonut said:
Me, toooo! Man, grew up in the oral-auditory learning environment and I had major, major social deficit where where I gained 1 little league baseball championship title to my name along with 2nd place wrestling, state champion soccer team, drama plays, marching band, symphonic band, marching band competitions, etc..etc...oh...damn, I am so socially, in a major way, effed up!

Pshaw!
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heh.
 
Iam happy for you Sheila, Daredevel, and Kokonut...however that doesn't eliminate the fact that many of us have suffered and still are especially those who end up with language delays and deficits. It seems like as long there are people like those 3, the rest of us who have suffered don't matter. It makes me really sad that nobody seems to take it seriously. Just laugh at us who are f@#cked up for real. Yea, it is funny to you guys but to us, it was a lifetime of pain and suffering and for those who end up with language delays or deficits will contunie to pay the price for the rest of their lives.

Pls do not tell me about that the child should be monitored closely..the real truth is that most mianstremed teachers don't really bother and most parents usually don't want to admit that their child doesn't fit mainstreaming until it becomes way too late. I have seen too much not to believe the rosy picture that is being painted.
 
deafdyke said:
So, a big part of the reason why a lot of hearing parents opt for oral only or mainstreaming, is b/c they feel that it's a much better academic enviroment. Yet I was reading Forbidden Signs. They said that 90% of learning at school happens OUTSIDE of the classroom/formal lesson plans.....Would a mainstreamed/oral student have ccess to that "unwritten curricuum?
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If the child doesn't have full acess to everything at school due to oralism , then it is most likely the child doesn't have full access to language, information, and etc outside of school.

That 24/7 inaccesibility is really really wrong, in my eyes.

If the parents aren't willing to learn sign language or the child can't understand spoken English most of the time, at least by being in a BiBI program, they have full access to everything.

The best case would be a BIBI environment both at home and at school. No risks for any language delays or deficits.
 
GrendelQ said:
Hey, this isn't a cage match between the two of you. There are a few other people here who may not have witnessed the exchange of data you describe (I haven't). I'd like to see this sort of report. I'd especially like to see if there's any comparative data that segments the different educational options and environments (Oral-only, AVT, Auditory Verbal, Cued Speech, Auditory Access/Bilingual, SEE, TC, voice-off bilingual, ASL-only) . Obv. you don't need to post the whole piece, but as much of a reference as you can provide to go on so we can find it ourselves from amidst a lot of research.
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Strange (not at you GrendelQ), where have I advocated oral only? What I have always advocated is that as long as parents make an *informed* decision then I'm fine with it.
 
Daredevel7 said:
Just look at me.

I'm an oral only kid. Isn't it obvious that I am eff'd up?

;)
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I guess I fit there too, and I have been told that I am totally "eff'ed up" I think I am fine, but socially awkward at times. More withdrawn and feel socially inept.
 
faire_jour said:
Can you show me any evidence showing that "most oral only kids have major social deficts" today?
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One of my college ex-boyfriend. I found out few months ago that he was mainstreamed until high school. His marriage doesn't sound good and I feel it is mainly his fault.

Kokonut, Shelia and Daredevil poked fun at this serious subject and it shows that they do have major social deficts. I rest the case.
 
shel90 said:
Iam happy for you Sheila, Daredevel, and Kokonut...however that doesn't eliminate the fact that many of us have suffered and still are especially those who end up with language delays and deficits. It seems like as long there are people like those 3, the rest of us who have suffered don't matter. It makes me really sad that nobody seems to take it seriously. Just laugh at us who are f@#cked up for real. Yea, it is funny to you guys but to us, it was a lifetime of pain and suffering and for those who end up with language delays or deficits will contunie to pay the price for the rest of their lives.
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My joke isn't intended to be sarcastic in terms of "Yea right, oral only screws up kids". It was more intended to make fun of myself. Sometimes I don't think I'm right in the head!

To be honest with you, I think we are doing pretty damn good keeping our mouths shut with the CONSTANT bashing of oral only kids. I mean we've heard it all: We are socially inept, we are delayed, we are f*$'ed up, we are lonely, we live sad and lonely lives, and so on.

I know very well that people have suffered from the oral only routine. However, everyone assumed that it applies for 99% of the group. With the 1% being the so called "super stars". I suspect that's why a lot of us don't say anything, or at least I don't, out of respect for those who do suffer. One little joke and bam we deserve this guilt trip?
 
Daredevel7 said:
My joke isn't intended to be sarcastic in terms of "Yea right, oral only screws up kids". It was more intended to make fun of myself. Sometimes I don't think I'm right in the head!

To be honest with you, I think we are doing pretty damn good keeping our mouths shut with the CONSTANT bashing of oral only kids. I mean we've heard it all: We are socially inept, we are delayed, we are f*$'ed up, we are lonely, we live sad and lonely lives, and so on.

I know very well that people have suffered from the oral only routine. However, everyone assumed that it applies for 99% of the group. With the 1% being the so called "super stars". I suspect that's why a lot of us don't say anything, or at least I don't, out of respect for those who do suffer. One little joke and bam we deserve this guilt trip?
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And when parents mention that we have met plenty of people like you, we are called liars and told that we are "putting down" and ignoring or disrespecting the "deaf perspective". I think you have just as much right to your perspective and experiences as those who had a bad experience. It is no less valid. And yeah, I think it is crap when people insult you (the general you who posted here) and say that oral only people can't read or have huge language or social delays.
 
Buffalo said:
One of my college ex-boyfriend. I found out few months ago that he was mainstreamed until high school. His marriage doesn't sound good and I feel it is mainly his fault.

Kokonut, Shelia and Daredevil poked fun at this serious subject and it shows that they do have major social deficts. I rest the case.
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Really? Do you actually believe that they don't have a right to be ok with who they are? They don't have the right to say that they turned out just fine? Talk about calling a deaf person's experience invalid! I have never seen a bigger demonstration of one person saying that their experience was "right" and anyone who disagrees is "wrong"! I can't believe that you actually said that because they made a joke it proves that oral people have social issues :shock:
 
t has been shown to you time and time and time again. It isn't that the research doesn't support that claim...it is that you simply refuse to accept it. Not only does research support it, anecdote from the deaf population's self reports support it as well. It just doesn't match the rosy pic you want to have of oral only, so you refuse to accept the obvious.
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Thank you jillo.
And there ARE some oral only kids who do well socially with hearing people yes, but it does seem like it's a VERY big near universal problem. I am NOT bashing oral only...simply bringing it up as a major area of concern. I mean even the kids who are very decent at spoken language, may have major social issues.
 
jillio said:
There is a reason that I don't respond to you. Childish and inflaming posts such as this are only one of those reasons.

The discussion prior was between Grendel and myself. Frankly, that discussion is none of your business, and you have virtually no reason to comment other than to try to start another of your childish fights. Grow up, FJ.

Fact: I have responded to numerous posters requests for research. I have emailed whole documents to many posters. I have provided you with the citation information you need in order for you to find that research. You simply don't want to take responsibilty for your own knowledge. You want someone to give it to you without you having to make any effort whatsoever. Something for nothing. Life doesn't work that way.
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What is with your need to interject yourself into virtually many every request for research or studies to back up someone's claim? And its always the same response, that it has already been supplied followed by a nasty comment about the person making the request. The request was NOT directed to YOU and you did not make the claim so there is no need for you to create unnecessary drama or for you to search through your "boxes of articles". If anything, it was NONE of YOUR business.

Who died and made you the gatekeeper of research?

Having heard anecdotal stories from deaf individuals, I too would like to know if there is any research that substantiates the poster's OPINION that "most oral only kids have major social (social pragmatic language deficts)" I am sure if she has it, she would be more than willing to share it with us or does she need your permission to do so?

Rick
 
deafdyke said:
Thank you jillo.
And there ARE some oral only kids who do well socially with hearing people yes, but it does seem like it's a VERY big near universal problem. I am NOT bashing oral only...simply bringing it up as a major area of concern. I mean even the kids who are very decent at spoken language, may have major social issues.
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Prove it.

Do you have any study that shows what you are claiming that "most oral only kids have major social (social pragmatic language deficts)"

BTW can you define what you mean by "major social issues"?

I guess we missed these issues while we were too busy engaging in the hyperscheduling of our kids and of course our 24/7 hyper intensive speech therapy.
 
deafdyke said:
Thank you jillo.
And there ARE some oral only kids who do well socially with hearing people yes, but it does seem like it's a VERY big near universal problem. I am NOT bashing oral only...simply bringing it up as a major area of concern. I mean even the kids who are very decent at spoken language, may have major social issues.
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As I said before DD, do you have anything to back up your claim that "most oral only kids have major social (social pragmatic language deficts)" or is that simply your opinion given as a fact?
 
Buffalo said:
One of my college ex-boyfriend. I found out few months ago that he was mainstreamed until high school. His marriage doesn't sound good and I feel it is mainly his fault.

Kokonut, Shelia and Daredevil poked fun at this serious subject and it shows that they do have major social deficts. I rest the case.
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The problem is this, and without and references or sources to back it up (note the bolded words):

Especially seeing as most oral only kids have major social (social pragmatic language deficts
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Most...and major...? Oh, please. A serious subject with hyperboles and nary a source or reference to back up that claim?

It ain't serious when it comes to over generalizing.
 
I guess not many here see that many deaf children still suffering from this method as a problem?

I guess I must be one of the few who is really really concerned.
 
shel90 said:
I guess not many here see that many deaf children still suffering from this method as a problem?

I guess I must be one of the few who is really really concerned.
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Really? You really believe that you are more concerned than we parents are? Do you actually believe that? That you are more worried about my child's development, happiness, health and future than I am? Do you truly think that you, as a stranger, have more concern than I do as her mother?
 
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