Should ASL be Banned from Deaf Ed programs?

[Babyblue]

Just to throw some humor in this.

I do a lot of lip reading and I had a guy sitting next to me in a bar.

I have posted this a while back before

Anyways he offered me a Michelob beer

He asked me if I wanted a Michelob. I got totally offended

I told him hell no! I don't want to make love with you!

He said no! No! The beer.


I was embarrassed.

He was offering to buy me a drink

So try lip reading

Michelob and make love


Elephant ears also is similar lip reading to I love you.

ASL is a language. One of a kind.

For A person that doesn't acknowledge it is still in denial.

 

[Deaf Mortgage]

Anybody know vaccum means???

 

[shel90]

I completely, totally, utterly disagree with the bolded statement, as did a couple others here already. Where are you getting your information? Only if someone were mumbling or talking sloppily could I see this happening. There is definite different lip movement with these letters. I just asked my roommate to do "milk" and "beer" (as per your example in a previous post) -- we did this 10 times and he randomly switched between the two words so I didn't know which was coming, I got it right TEN out of TEN times. There was a clear and definite difference between the two. To my eye, the "L" in milk is very distinguishable, as was the "R" in beer.

Would be easy in an one on one situation to be able to distinguish the difference and I think u can cuz you already have a strong language foundation. Young children who are still in their formative years of language development may have more difficulty with this.

 

[shel90]

I've noticed that "strongest sense of the deaf = eyes" is used a lot. Therefore, ASL must be MUCH easier, however one thing is neglected. You still use your eyes for lipreading. And ASL actually requires MORE visualization/memory than lipreading, since you'd have to visually memorize signs (thousands of them) whereas in spoken English, you only have to memorize what each letter LOOKS like when spoken (dozens). True that you'd have to basically decode if its a t, d, z, etc.

Just pointing out that, spoken language is not simply all ears.

According to research, the best lip readers usually get 30% of what is being said around them and that is in ideal settings.

Lipreaders are able to increase that percentage in an one-on-one situation and for the young child still developing language, being put in a classroom full of hearing kids talking at once, it is impossible to catch everything that is being said by lipreading alone. Misunderstandings tend to happen and the teachers would have to constantly stop the lessons to rephrase what the deaf child misses or just keep on going allowing the deaf child to be completely lost to what is happening in the classroom.

 

[sirena rossa]

You are still missing the point. The letter "P", "B", and "M" can be speechread, because placement is visable. However, the letter "B" and "M" are made using exactly the same placement, and the only way to distinguish the two is through hearing the air flow as it is directed through the vocal mechanisms. That you cannot see. So if you are relying on vision alone, you cannot see the difference. Likewise, the letters phonemes "ilk" and the phonemenes "eer" are not visable at all. Therefore, if you are relying on vision alone, the only thing that can be seen in either word is the placement of the lips that form the letter "B" and the letter "L". They are identical. So the two cannot be differentiated through vision alone. To discriminate between the two, one must have some degree of audition to do so, or one must have an additional visual cue such as a sign that would allow for discrimination.

Agreed on the letters P, B, & M.
but how is "ilk" and "eer" the same visually??? the placement of the lips and tongue are SOOO different with the letters B & L. with B the lips are closed. with L the tongue touches the roof of the mouth. i cannot understand how u can say those words look like! lol.
I have a question, how much do u rely on lip-reading and how much do u rely on hearing the sound, in order to understand whats being said? Just wondering... for me, i would say its like 90% lip-reading and 10% hearing the person's voice.

 

[shel90]

this may be a bit off topic... but... "milk" and "beer" ????! those do not lipread the same way at all. what makes u say that? they are completely different letters altogether. i even just looked at myself in the mirror while saying them! lol. and um.... im sorry they do not look the same cuz of an L vs. an R. the words "bat" and "mat" do look the same though.

That's because you have established a strong L1 language...

and you are doing it on an one-on-one situation which isnt ideal out in the real world.

 

[sirena rossa]

P.S. What if the person has a Boston accent and so the R in "beer" is dropped and it becomes Bee-ah! is that easier to lipread?

 

[shel90]

Agreed on the letters P, B, & M.
but how is "ilk" and "eer" the same visually??? the placement of the lips and tongue are SOOO different with the letters B & L. with B the lips are closed. with L the tongue touches the roof of the mouth. i cannot understand how u can say those words look like! lol.
I have a question, how much do u rely on lip-reading and how much do u rely on hearing the sound, in order to understand whats being said? Just wondering... for me, i would say its like 90% lip-reading and 10% hearing the person's voice.

One on one situations, it is easy to lipread that but in a room full of hearing people talking or debating, being able to lipread that becomes difficult.

 

[Jiro]

Anybody know vaccum means???

 

[Jiro]

Agreed on the letters P, B, & M.
but how is "ilk" and "eer" the same visually??? the placement of the lips and tongue are SOOO different with the letters B & L. with B the lips are closed. with L the tongue touches the roof of the mouth. i cannot understand how u can say those words look like! lol.
I have a question, how much do u rely on lip-reading and how much do u rely on hearing the sound, in order to understand whats being said? Just wondering... for me, i would say its like 90% lip-reading and 10% hearing the person's voice.

wow 90%??? You must be a gifted one then. Mine is... i'd say 60% hearing, 40% lip-reading.

 

[shel90]

P.S. What if the person has a Boston accent and so the R in "beer" is dropped and it becomes Bee-ah! is that easier to lipread?

I dont care if one misunderstands or can understand in social situations. This is in the educational setting where learning takes place for these children and for them to not understand what is being said around them just like their hearing counterparts are able to is what caused a lot of delays for many many deaf children.


You and I got lucky...I loved to read so that helped me but I still missed out on developing other skills like the ability to debate, get into engaging discussions and etc.

My deaf 4th graders today had a great discussion about the first 2 steps of the writing process and all was in ASL. Nobody was left out and have to work hard at trying to catch what others were saying. Everyone was able to participate freely.

 

[shel90]

wow 90%??? You must be a gifted one then. Mine is... i'd say 60% hearing, 40% lip-reading.

I think she meant she relies on lipreading 90% of the time. When lipreading, it is about 90% for me too which is why I end up with headaches after lipreading all day. I am glad I dont need to lipread 24/7 like before.

 

[Daredevel7]

I think she meant she relies on lipreading 90% of the time. When lipreading, it is about 90% for me too which is why I end up with headaches after lipreading all day. I am glad I dont need to lipread 24/7 like before.

I also rely on mostly lipreading. About 90% also. Anyone could say "Ug, Ive been _____ all day." Whether it be lipreading, watching people sign, listening, reading, jumping on trampolines.....

 

[sirena rossa]

I dont care if one misunderstands or can understand in social situations. This is in the educational setting where learning takes place for these children and for them to not understand what is being said around them just like their hearing counterparts are able to is what caused a lot of delays for many many deaf children.


You and I got lucky...I loved to read so that helped me but I still missed out on developing other skills like the ability to debate, get into engaging discussions and etc.

My deaf 4th graders today had a great discussion about the first 2 steps of the writing process and all was in ASL. Nobody was left out and have to work hard at trying to catch what others were saying. Everyone was able to participate freely.

ya know what else really helped me as a kid? reading the closed captioning on TV thanks to those , i read fast!

 

[sirena rossa]

I think she meant she relies on lipreading 90% of the time. When lipreading, it is about 90% for me too which is why I end up with headaches after lipreading all day. I am glad I dont need to lipread 24/7 like before.

Yep, thats right Shel90 - i meant 90% on lipreading
that sucks u got headaches... too much of anything isn't good for anyone, haha.

 

[shel90]

ya know what else really helped me as a kid? reading the closed captioning on TV thanks to those , i read fast!

Yea, my students do the same with the captioning when we have movie days.

 

[shel90]

Yep, thats right Shel90 - i meant 90% on lipreading
that sucks u got headaches... too much of anything isn't good for anyone, haha.

Yea, that's why I couldnt believe how much easier life has gotten for me when I became fluent in ASL and became a part of the Deaf community. Now, I have a good balance of both and I wish I had that growing up instead of being constant frustrated from misunderstandings, missing out on what someone across from the room said, missing out when people are debating or discussing at a rapid pace, and miscommunication causing others to get frustrated with me making it feel like it was my fault.

 

[AlleyCat]

That's because you have established a strong L1 language...

and you are doing it on an one-on-one situation which isnt ideal out in the real world.

Totally understand what you're saying -- as far as children not having established strong lip-reading skills yet.

However, as far as a one-on-one situation in the real word, if I'm in a group or school setting, that's where the sign language interpreter comes into play for me. So lipreading (for me) doesn't apply as much, and when I am indeed lipreading, it is usually a one-on-one situation and that is where I do see the difference in "milk" and "beer". I think I get what you are saying, though -- for those who rely on lipreading in a big setting rather than sign, it is very easy for many words to get mixed up.

 

[shel90]

Totally understand what you're saying -- as far as children not having established strong lip-reading skills yet.

However, as far as a one-on-one situation in the real word, if I'm in a group or school setting, that's where the sign language interpreter comes into play for me. So lipreading (for me) doesn't apply as much, and when I am indeed lipreading, it is usually a one-on-one situation and that is where I do see the difference in "milk" and "beer". I think I get what you are saying, though -- for those who rely on lipreading in a big setting rather than sign, it is very easy for many words to get mixed up.

Exactly and that happens to so many deaf children in the educational setting by being in a classroom full of hearing kids and who do not know ASL.

At least if they are going to be mainstreamed, by having an ASL terp is a whole lot better than being oral-only and missing out on what is being taught, said, or dicussed. That's why so many of our older students who got referred to our program fell so far behind.

 

[Daredevel7]

Even though I don't know ASL, I think banning ASL definitely denies people their right to learn and it CAN have repercussions. I doubt ASL will EVER be truly banned. Yes, they may take it out of certain classrooms while they are trying to teach them oral speech, but it will NEVER not be an option in a class or otherwise. Otherwise... that's when you know it's bad.