Should ASL be Banned from Deaf Ed programs?

[rockdrummer]

Because of the restistance and stereotypings against ASL as "broken" English, parents preference for oral-only, and so on. Too much resistance out there but it is a lot better back then.

Do some hearing kids fail and and some succeed in developing spoken language?

Ok you didn't answer my question about your method proving 100% success. I will take that as a no.

But I will answer your question to the best of my ability. I don't know if hearing kids fail in developing spoken language nor am I aware of any competing methods for teaching spoken language to hearing kids. I also am not aware of controversy surrounding how hearing kids are taught spoken language. When I've tried to make comparisons between Spanish and English in the context of language development, I get corrected that it doesn't apply because you can't compare how a deaf child learns language to that of a hearing child. Please correct me if I am wrong but isn't that exactly what you are doing when you ask such a question in this context?

 

[shel90]

Ok you didn't answer my question about your method proving 100% success. I will take that as a no.

But I will answer your question to the best of my ability. I don't know if hearing kids fail in developing spoken language nor am I aware of any competing methods for teaching spoken language to hearing kids. I also am not aware of controversy surrounding how hearing kids are taught spoken language. When I've tried to make comparisons between Spanish and English in the context of language development, I get corrected that it doesn't apply because you can't compare how a deaf child learns language to that of a hearing child. Please correct me if I am wrong but isn't that exactly what you are doing when you ask such a question in this context?

Sorry for not answering your question. My bad.

So far, all of the kids who have been referred to this method always have improved..never falling back but many of them perform at lower grade levels due to what happened during their earlier years for not having the access to language in order for their language to develop at an age appropriate level. I can say yes, it has proved to give all kids regardless of the dB loss they have the opportunity to acquire language fully, not partially.

Hearing kids have full access to any spoken language whether it is Spanish, English, French and they develop a strong first language before entering school. Deaf children cant access spoken language fully like hearing kids so that's where by providing a visual language comes in. When deaf children do not have a full access to language during their formative years, then u know what happens.

 

[jillio]

By exposing the kids with a language that is fully accessible to them using their eyes. Spoken English is not fully accessible to them as ASL is because spoken English is meant to be processed auditorally while ASL is not. So by, providing all deaf children a full acess to language using their strongest sense (their eyes), they are guaranteed to develop a strong first language like hearing kids are guaranteed to develop a strong first language through spoken language (we know hearing kids can develop a strong first language through a visual language too) and then capitalize on that strong first language to acquire the 2nd language which is English in the written form and in a lot of cases, in the spoken form as well so that way those who werent able to pick up orall skills can have a strong first language already.

Bingo!

 

[Daredevel7]

I've noticed that "strongest sense of the deaf = eyes" is used a lot. Therefore, ASL must be MUCH easier, however one thing is neglected. You still use your eyes for lipreading. And ASL actually requires MORE visualization/memory than lipreading, since you'd have to visually memorize signs (thousands of them) whereas in spoken English, you only have to memorize what each letter LOOKS like when spoken (dozens). True that you'd have to basically decode if its a t, d, z, etc.

Just pointing out that, spoken language is not simply all ears.

 

[jillio]

I've noticed that "strongest sense of the deaf = eyes" is used a lot. Therefore, ASL must be MUCH easier, however one thing is neglected. You still use your eyes for lipreading. And ASL actually requires MORE visualization/memory than lipreading, since you'd have to visually memorize signs (thousands of them) whereas in spoken English, you only have to memorize what each letter LOOKS like when spoken (dozens). True that you'd have to basically decode if its a t, d, z, etc.

Just pointing out that, spoken language is not simply all ears.

And lipreading alone leads to errors in communication. Too many sounds appear to be the same on the lips. The words "milk" and "beer" actually lipread exactly the same. Additionally, lipreading is only effective for an approximate 30% accurracy rate, is not effective in situations in which communication is greater than a 1 on 1 ratio, is not effective at a distance of more than 5-6 feet, and requires optimal lighting to achieve even a 30% accuracy rate.

ASL does not have these problems.

And, in spoken language, you have to memorize millions of phoneme/morpheme combinations that create millions of words representing millions of concepts.

 

[sirena rossa]

Too many sounds appear to be the same on the lips. The words "milk" and "beer" actually lipread exactly the same.

this may be a bit off topic... but... "milk" and "beer" ????! those do not lipread the same way at all. what makes u say that? they are completely different letters altogether. i even just looked at myself in the mirror while saying them! lol. and um.... im sorry they do not look the same cuz of an L vs. an R. the words "bat" and "mat" do look the same though.

 

[jillio]

this may be a bit off topic... but... "milk" and "beer" ????! those do not lipread the same way at all. what makes u say that? they are completely different letters altogether. i even just looked at myself in the mirror while saying them! lol. and um.... im sorry they do not look the same cuz of an L vs. an R. the words "bat" and "mat" do look the same though.

Yes, they are completely different letters. The only reason they look different to you is because you already have knowledge of what you are saying. Let someone say them unexpectedly and out of context, and you will have no idea which one has been said when relying on lipreading alone.

The letter "R" and the letter "L" cannot be distinguished through lipreading alone, because the placement of the vocal mechanisms are not visable when one articulates the sound of said letters. The fact that you included them in indication that you were not relying on lipreading to discriminate between the 2 words, but were relying on audition, auditory memory, and the knowledge of the word you were pronouncing.

 

[Cheri]

And lipreading alone leads to errors in communication. Too many sounds appear to be the same on the lips. The words "milk" and "beer" actually lipread exactly the same. Additionally, lipreading is only effective for an approximate 30% accurracy rate, is not effective in situations in which communication is greater than a 1 on 1 ratio, is not effective at a distance of more than 5-6 feet, and requires optimal lighting to achieve even a 30% accuracy rate.

ASL does not have these problems.

And, in spoken language, you have to memorize millions of phoneme/morpheme combinations that create millions of words representing millions of concepts.

I totally disagree, ASL DOES have that problem there are many deaf people who signs different as other deaf people much as of the vocabulary is different. Also, There are many different sign languages in use throughout the world, I've met many people their signs are different from another deaf person, I've seen deaf people who were confused with ASL because they sign in Exact English, and deaf people who would confused with Exact English too because they sign in ASL...I also know there are deaf people out there that will read lips to understand a deaf person's signs. I'm one of them, and I know Liebling is another one too.

 

[jillio]

I totally disagree, ASL DOES have that problem there are many deaf people who signs different as other deaf people much as of the vocabulary is different. There are many different sign languages in use throughout the world, I know that for matter of fact, because I've met many people their signs are different from another deaf person, I've seen deaf people who were confused with ASL because they sign in Exact English, and deaf people who would confused with Exact English too because they sign in ASL...I know there are deaf people out there that will read lips to understand a deaf person's signs. I'm one of them, and I know Liebling is another one too.

But you see, Cheri, SEE is not ASL. If I speak English to a Spanish speaking person, they will not understand what I am saying, either. SEE is English, ASL is not.

While there are regional differences in some ASL signs, the regional difference are minor variations. They can be equated to the differences in accents found between regions in the U.S. A person from the South pronounces many words with a slight variation from the way someone fromt he North would pronounce them. But they are still the same word, and still represent the same concept, so that communication between English speakers from various areas is still facillitated. The same with ASL.

And, you are talking about regional differences in signs, and I am talking about the difference between lipreading alone and the language of ASL. They are very different concepts. The problems you have listed are not inherent to ASL. Someone who signs SEE is using the English language, not ASL. Of course there will be confusion. You still have 2 different languages between ASL and SEE. It is still ASL and English.

 

[Cheri]

this may be a bit off topic... but... "milk" and "beer" ????! those do not lipread the same way at all. what makes u say that? they are completely different letters altogether. i even just looked at myself in the mirror while saying them! lol. and um.... im sorry they do not look the same cuz of an L vs. an R. the words "bat" and "mat" do look the same though.

No; they do not look the same, I don't know what Jillio is talking about, I can understand the different between milk and beer.. Sometimes I wouldn't pay attention to the begin of the letter sound, like p(ail), b(ail), and m(ail). I would ask--- you mean mail? no? you mean pail??

 

[jillio]

No; they do not look the same, I don't know what Jillio is talking about, I can understand the different between milk and beer.. Sometimes I wouldn't pay attention to the begin of the letter sound, like p(ail), b(ail), and m(ail). I would ask you mean mail?

You are still missing the point. The letter "P", "B", and "M" can be speechread, because placement is visable. However, the letter "B" and "M" are made using exactly the same placement, and the only way to distinguish the two is through hearing the air flow as it is directed through the vocal mechanisms. That you cannot see. So if you are relying on vision alone, you cannot see the difference. Likewise, the letters phonemes "ilk" and the phonemenes "eer" are not visable at all. Therefore, if you are relying on vision alone, the only thing that can be seen in either word is the placement of the lips that form the letter "B" and the letter "L". They are identical. So the two cannot be differentiated through vision alone. To discriminate between the two, one must have some degree of audition to do so, or one must have an additional visual cue such as a sign that would allow for discrimination.

 

[imdeafsowhat]

I didn't read any posts because I wanna answer before reading anything, I dunno why I just do.

Yes, ban teh ASL from the deaf programs but do not refrain the sign language class, only refrain the deaf from that class if they have the ability to sign.

That way, everyone would be benefitted with the ability to sign and talk. But that's just me, also a reason why I read no posts.

 

[AlleyCat]

You are still missing the point. The letter "P", "B", and "M" can be speechread, because placement is visable. However, the letter "B" and "M" are made using exactly the same placement, and the only way to distinguish the two is through hearing the air flow as it is directed through the vocal mechanisms. That you cannot see. So if you are relying on vision alone, you cannot see the difference. Likewise, the letters phonemes "ilk" and the phonemenes "eer" are not visable at all. Therefore, if you are relying on vision alone, the only thing that can be seen in either word is the placement of the lips that form the letter "B" and the letter "L". They are identical. So the two cannot be differentiated through vision alone. To discriminate between the two, one must have some degree of audition to do so, or one must have an additional visual cue such as a sign that would allow for discrimination.

I completely, totally, utterly disagree with the bolded statement, as did a couple others here already. Where are you getting your information? Only if someone were mumbling or talking sloppily could I see this happening. There is definite different lip movement with these letters. I just asked my roommate to do "milk" and "beer" (as per your example in a previous post) -- we did this 10 times and he randomly switched between the two words so I didn't know which was coming, I got it right TEN out of TEN times. There was a clear and definite difference between the two. To my eye, the "L" in milk is very distinguishable, as was the "R" in beer.

 

[Jiro]

I completely, totally, utterly disagree with the bolded statement, as did a couple others here already. Where are you getting your information? Only if someone were mumbling or talking sloppily could I see this happening. There is definite different lip movement with these letters. I just asked my roommate to do "milk" and "beer" (as per your example in a previous post) -- we did this 10 times and he randomly switched between the two words so I didn't know which was coming, I got it right TEN out of TEN times. There was a clear and definite difference between the two. To my eye, the "L" in milk is very distinguishable, as was the "R" in beer.

try doing it with a random stranger. If you were at bar, you would obviously know the bartender will be asking you "do you want a beer?" If you were at diner, you would be expecting to be asked if you want a milk/drink. sometimes you would not be able to see the tongue movement to pronounce beer and milk. sometimes a person pronounces milk/beer too fast for you to catch a SMALL distinction.

I just tried talking to myself - "Hey do you want a beer?" and "Hey do you want a milk?" I can see that my lips move very similar for both milk and beer at rather fast speed.

 

[imdeafsowhat]

try doing it with a random stranger. If you were at bar, you would obviously know the bartender will be asking you "do you want a beer?" If you were at diner, you would be expecting to be asked if you want a milk/drink. sometimes you would not be able to see the tongue movement to pronounce beer and milk. sometimes a person pronounces milk/beer too fast for you to catch a SMALL distinction.

I just tried talking to myself - "Hey do you want a beer?" and "Hey do you want a milk?" I can see that my lips move very similar for both milk and beer at rather fast speed.

You're blind then.

I can see the tongues and teeth and I know how to pronounce the words. I would simply mimic what he said and in a bar, I would've guessed beer, because they don't serve milk, unless I was in a food store and a guy said milk, i still would understand it.

No freaking similar in those words. If you said beer and bear, there's the similar pronunciation in those words. It's how you pronounce it, not how you look at it.

 

[Sosie]

I just vote NO!
I agree with some of ADers here. I think all deaf children should learn ASL. Period.
Again, I vote NO!!!!

 

[Jiro]

You're blind then.

I can see the tongues and teeth and I know how to pronounce the words. I would simply mimic what he said and in a bar, I would've guessed beer, because they don't serve milk, unless I was in a food store and a guy said milk, i still would understand it.

No freaking similar in those words. If you said beer and bear, there's the similar pronunciation in those words. It's how you pronounce it, not how you look at it.

but a deaf can't hear those pronunciation. They LOOK at it... duh

 

[Angel]

I completely, totally, utterly disagree with the bolded statement, as did a couple others here already. Where are you getting your information? Only if someone were mumbling or talking sloppily could I see this happening. There is definite different lip movement with these letters. I just asked my roommate to do "milk" and "beer" (as per your example in a previous post) -- we did this 10 times and he randomly switched between the two words so I didn't know which was coming, I got it right TEN out of TEN times. There was a clear and definite difference between the two. To my eye, the "L" in milk is very distinguishable, as was the "R" in beer.

You're absolutely correct, I did the same by asking both of my hearing sons to do "milk" and "beer" and we did it several times I still got it right..

 

[rockdrummer]

You're absolutely correct, I did the same by asking both of my hearing sons to do "milk" and "beer" and we did it several times I still got it right..

I believe from posts that I see from all sides that there is much that is touted to be fact that is actually subjective. Your empericle evidence supports that. Just my opinion for what it's worth.

 

[imdeafsowhat]

We all are entitled to our own opinion. One would simply add their own to one's opinion.