Deaf teachers losing jobs because of English

[Reba]

Ok, I was a bit unclear. Let me explain again.

Some people here don't get it when Shel90, a scholar of modern deaf education, try to explain how ASL and english skills are connected in deaf ed. It's perhaps not totally accurate, but I will label those who disagree with Shel09 as "oralist" for simplificy. Proof supporting what Shel90 is saying here, have been pulled up houndreds of times, perhaps thousands, on alldeaf. Still oralists here claim this is false, because they see and belive something else. Research on deaf ed is getting more correlative for each year, pointing in the direction that Shel90 is explaining here.

We see the same thing happening when climate researchers try to explain the average american that they got evidence, and 90 percent of researchers agree with each other, showing human activities are the reason the climate is changing. Still, less than half of the americans belive this to be true, no matter how many pages of proof researchers pull up.

Oralist refusing to listen to bilingual research is a typical problem in science, showing the challenge of informing average joe about findings in science. Sciences of medicine, physics, religion, psychology, health etc etc battle with the same challenges.

I understood you perfectly the first time.

Your statement, "Could be interesting with a survey checking if oralists are more prone to belive in creationism and oppose climate changes than those who favor real bilingual education" is irrelevant to this topic.

I believe in Creationism but I'm no oralist. I've been a long-time supporter of ASL. I've also read posts from strong CI/oralist supporters who are strong evolutionists. There is no connection.

The only conclusion I drew from your post was that you have a beef with oralists, Creationists, and climate change skeptics, so you tried to kill three birds with one stone.

 

[Grummer]

Grummer, basically you are saying that the general hearing society want to keep deaf people as oppressed as they can so they dont have to compete with them in the workforce? Trying to make sure that I interpret your post correctly. Thanks!

yep, but its not THAT simple

 

[shel90]

yep, but its not THAT simple

What is simple anyway?

 

[Reba]

...I think Reba didn't get it because she is very religious and most likely believe in Creationism over Evolutionism.

I "got it"--I just don't agree. Religion and belief in Creationism have nothing to do with whether or not one is an oralist.

Let's not forget it was "religious" men who established the schools for the deaf in America, using ASL as their primary means of communication and education. It's when the secular and political "experts" got involved in deaf education that the oralists gained power.

It was the very "scientific" AGB who promoted oralism.

 

[Grummer]

This is why from time to time, when you (or anyone) see me post, I always try to refer back to the needs of redefining the meaning of 'd/Deaf rights'.
As I see it, the struggles we face as d/Deaf people is not confined in education, this is a mislead assumption to think otherwise. We got to think 2 steps ahead, life is like a game of Chess.

 

[shel90]

And the oralists refused to listen to the deaf people who was on the receiving end of deaf education.

You got a good analogy to what is going on with Deaf Education.

I think Reba didn't get it because she is very religious and most likely believe in Creationism over Evolutionism.

I agree.

 

[shel90]

Let's be realistic. Bi-bi schools got speech therapy and hearies around. It's deaf children with decent speech in bi-bi schools, talking in phones etc. The truth is that bi-bi schools does not stop deaf children from developing speech, and deaf children will learn speech if they are capable to do so. I even know a deaf guy from deaf family that have decent speech, attending a state deaf school with shit speech therapy. But parents sometime blame bi-bi schools when their children show lack of speech development on par with other more oral competent deaf people or even hearing people. They put their children in a mainstream school or oral deaf school, but this seldom helps. Some children just don't develop "state of the art" speech, due to different issues like you describe in your blog, and if they don't do in a bi-bi school, just forget it. Sometimes one have to accept that everytime their child open the mouth in the future, they are gonna sound like a inhabitant living in duckberg or perhaps an alien speaking an unnameable language.

It does no one good to be a manic about the deafness of a child.

Thank you!!!

My brother was put in intensive oral training like I was but without success. Is it the end of the world? Look at where he is now...I think not!

 

[Grummer]

I understood you perfectly the first time.

Your statement, "Could be interesting with a survey checking if oralists are more prone to belive in creationism and oppose climate changes than those who favor real bilingual education" is irrelevant to this topic.

I believe in Creationism but I'm no oralist. I've been a long-time supporter of ASL. I've also read posts from strong CI/oralist supporters who are strong evolutionists. There is no connection.

The only conclusion I drew from your post was that you have a beef with oralists, Creationists, and climate change skeptics, so you tried to kill three birds with one stone.

Would you kindly explain briefly where are those words ?
creationism
evolutionists
climate changes
climate change skeptics

actually, Im wondering how does this relates to different opinions regarding what ought to be d/Deaf education?
is this attempting to connection religion, ideology and what way does these shapes 'our' understanding of deaf education ?

Thanks

 

[flip]

I understood you perfectly the first time.

Your statement, "Could be interesting with a survey checking if oralists are more prone to belive in creationism and oppose climate changes than those who favor real bilingual education" is irrelevant to this topic.

I believe in Creationism but I'm no oralist. I've been a long-time supporter of ASL. I've also read posts from strong CI/oralist supporters who are strong evolutionists. There is no connection.

The only conclusion I drew from your post was that you have a beef with oralists, Creationists, and climate change skeptics, so you tried to kill three birds with one stone.

Ok, not sure if I am that into killing animals, but nice metaphor, and I you propably are right, no connection.

The creationism was perhaps a bad example, as it's many levels of creationism and ways of mixing it with evolution and hard science. Climate changes is more straight forward and a better example on a situation where scientists and the average joe are on two different planets.

 

[Reba]

Would you kindly explain briefly where are those words ?
creationism
evolutionists
climate changes
climate change skeptics

actually, Im wondering if you meant those in literal or as in a sense according to describing differing stances TODs have upon oral education/CI/ASL (sign languages)?
Thanks

Those words were first brought up by flip in this post:

AllDeaf.com - View Single Post - Deaf teachers losing jobs because of English

My point was that I disagree with flip. I don't think believing in Creationism or evolution has anything to do with the oralism vs. ASL debate. It's :topic:

 

[Grummer]

I understood you perfectly the first time.

Your statement, "Could be interesting with a survey checking if oralists are more prone to belive in creationism and oppose climate changes than those who favor real bilingual education" is irrelevant to this topic.

I believe in Creationism but I'm no oralist. I've been a long-time supporter of ASL. I've also read posts from strong CI/oralist supporters who are strong evolutionists. There is no connection.

The only conclusion I drew from your post was that you have a beef with oralists, Creationists, and climate change skeptics, so you tried to kill three birds with one stone.

Would you kindly explain briefly where are those words ?
creationism
evolutionists
climate changes
climate change skeptics

actually, Im wondering if you meant those in literal or as in a sense according to describing differing stances TODs have upon oral education/CI/ASL (sign languages)?
Thanks

 

[shel90]

Speaking of off-topic...probably a good idea to get back on topic?

 

[doubletrouble]

I obviously have seen more oral schools than you, no need to put my knowledge down, thank you. It's folklore and even more folklore you are describing here. The style you are describing is actually the what they have done in many oral schools for years, but with your limited experience you are impressed, and the teachers know that. That's a part of the game in oral schools, to impress hearing parents, and less focus on what children want if they truly could choose themselves. The philosophy of oral education got flaws, but like in the example of climate change, people like you aren't gonna belive it got flaws even if research are pulled up.

So, gonna tell us more folklore tales?

What FJ is saying is not "folklore" but the truth. My son had been in an oral program since he was 3 months old until he was 4 and the focus of the school was LANGUAGE- not articulation. What you have stated and seen, could have been from years ago ( I am only assuming this, because I remember my parents telling me how it was when they were growing up ) but this is not the case now- at least in the schools that I have been involved in. My son still sees a speech therapist- but it has NOTHING to do with articulation and speech- but more of vocabulary and language. This has been going on since he's been 5 years old. I could care less how well he spoke, and so do many of the other parents that I have met through the years.

In so far as a teacher not passing the test (getting back to the topic on hand) if the teacher cannot pass, then he/she should not be teaching.

 

[flip]

Thank you!!!

My brother was put in intensive oral training like I was but without success. Is it the end of the world? Look at where he is now...I think not!

That's the great secret among deaf people, decent ASL skills is really all one need

 

[shel90]

What FJ is saying is not "folklore" but the truth. My son had been in an oral program since he was 3 months old until he was 4 and the focus of the school was LANGUAGE- not articulation. What you have stated and seen, could have been from years ago ( I am only assuming this, because I remember my parents telling me how it was when they were growing up ) but this is not the case now- at least in the schools that I have been involved in. My son still sees a speech therapist- but it has NOTHING to do with articulation and speech- but more of vocabulary and language. This has been going on since he's been 5 years old. I could care less how well he spoke, and so do many of the other parents that I have met through the years.

In so far as a teacher not passing the test (getting back to the topic on hand) if the teacher cannot pass, then he/she should not be teaching.

What about teachers who pass but cant teach?

 

[flip]

What FJ is saying is not "folklore" but the truth. My son had been in an oral program since he was 3 months old until he was 4 and the focus of the school was LANGUAGE- not articulation. What you have stated and seen, could have been from years ago ( I am only assuming this, because I remember my parents telling me how it was when they were growing up ) but this is not the case now- at least in the schools that I have been involved in. My son still sees a speech therapist- but it has NOTHING to do with articulation and speech- but more of vocabulary and language. This has been going on since he's been 5 years old. I could care less how well he spoke, and so do many of the other parents that I have met through the years.

In so far as a teacher not passing the test (getting back to the topic on hand) if the teacher cannot pass, then he/she should not be teaching.

No, it's folklore, not truth. It's proved. I talked about vocabulary and language, not articulation, like you think. It's been vocabulary and language for decades. Articulation ended most places in the seventies, at the same time sign languages had a comeback into deaf ed in the western world.

 

[Reba]

... Climate changes is more straight forward and a better example on a situation where scientists and the average joe are on two different planets.

That won't work either. There are scientists and "average joes" on both sides of the climate debate. It's not so much a difference of science as it is a difference of political perspective.

Either way, it's still :topic:.

 

[Grummer]

I actually know of a woman (pretty old like 50-60yo)just passed all her studies, and is a qualified teacher but she is USELESS, even had this old fashioned dracion attitude, I'm debating with myself whether I should go there and say my piece that is to say 'YOU have No right to be teacher how dare you ... who passed you?!" I am going to the Ministry of Education to take this matter further" its just un-fuck-believable that they want to wind back the clock to like 50 years!
bitch !!

im gonna get rid of her.

 

[shel90]

I actually know of a woman (pretty old like 50-60yo)just passed all her studies, and is a qualified teacher but she is USELESS, even had this old fashioned dracion attitude, I'm debating with myself whether I should go there and say my piece that is to say 'YOU have No right to be teacher how dare you ... who passed you?!" I am going to the Ministry of Education to take this matter further" its just un-fuck-believable that they want to wind back the clock to like 50 years!
bitch !!

im gonna get rid of her.

I am telling you..there are people out there that have passed this test with flying colors but cant teach and people who are excellent teachers who are unable to pass this test.

There are also issues with test-taking anxiety in which can cause people to fail. That has to be taken into consideration also.

There is one Deaf guy I know who is a GREAT teacher but English is his 4th language after Quebec sign language, French, ASL! To me, I think he has a LOT more to offer to the Deaf students than someone who is monolingual.

His English isnt perfect BUT he has taught students and has brought their English levels up so many grade levels that he recieved an award. He is someone I would look up than some hearing teacher who can pass the test but cant teach!

It would be a shame if he got let go because of some test that doesnt really measure his true skills as a teacher. :roll:

 

[Reba]

Would you kindly explain briefly where are those words ?
creationism
evolutionists
climate changes
climate change skeptics

actually, Im wondering if you meant those in literal or as in a sense according to describing differing stances TODs have upon oral education/CI/ASL (sign languages)?
Thanks

See my post #210.