Deaf teachers losing jobs because of English

[Daredevel7]

What FJ is saying is not "folklore" but the truth. My son had been in an oral program since he was 3 months old until he was 4 and the focus of the school was LANGUAGE- not articulation. What you have stated and seen, could have been from years ago ( I am only assuming this, because I remember my parents telling me how it was when they were growing up ) but this is not the case now- at least in the schools that I have been involved in. My son still sees a speech therapist- but it has NOTHING to do with articulation and speech- but more of vocabulary and language. This has been going on since he's been 5 years old. I could care less how well he spoke, and so do many of the other parents that I have met through the years.

In so far as a teacher not passing the test (getting back to the topic on hand) if the teacher cannot pass, then he/she should not be teaching.

Actually, not even back then..... I have some old speech therapy tapes that I should put on youtube eventually to show you what happens during specch therapy when I was 3-5 years old. But this is a typical game for when I was about 3:

"Here are 3 blocks, this orange one is mommy, the blue one is abu (my grandmother), the red one is papa, which one does not belong?"

"Papa!"

"Why?"

"Because he is a boy!"

My speech was not perfect, but she didn't correct me on it until I was older. Not every speech therapy session is about articulation. Even when I was older, my speech therapist made me write essays about WHATEVER I wanted and read them out loud. She taught me idioms and random stuff like that. I am not saying most speech therapists are like that. I suspect my 2 speech therapists are not common, but just trying to show that speech therapy doesn't always have to be about articulation.

 

[naisho]

Oh my, I hope the direction of this thread is not steering towards one of those same ol' same old topics again. again..

Those are doomed to proceed in loop-da-loop circles forever.


We gotta focus on the teachers at stake (that means shel and dbg!) , not whether oral or asl methods are better .

 

[flip]

That won't work either. There are scientists and "average joes" on both sides of the climate debate. It's not so much a difference of science as it is a difference of political perspective.

Either way, it's still :topic:.

WARNING, OFF TOPIC POST:
97 percent of climate researchers agree human activities are to blame for changes. It's a myth researchers disagree. It's only true for average joes.
Surveyed scientists agree global warming is real - CNN.com
This is similar to the debate on bilingualism. Average joe keep on thinking oralism is something no one knows for true is ok or not. Bilingual researchers ditch it.
END OF OFF TOPIC POST.

 

[shel90]

Oh my, I hope the direction of this thread is not steering towards one of those same ol' same old topics again. again..

Those are doomed to proceed in loop-da-loop circles forever.


We gotta focus on the teachers at stake (that means shel and dbg!) , not whether oral or asl methods are better .

Thanks!


So back to my questions I recently posted...

What about teachers who arent fluent in ASL in which students arent getting the proper model of language in the classroom setting?

What about teachers who pass but have no idea what it means to teach?

Someone mentioned that some people use teaching as a fall-back career if their primary career doesnt work out. That means we get people who arent really into it coming into the teaching field and screwing up the kids.

Pls dont tell me about administrators observating them...that is a joke also! Some administrators dont even know ASL themselves either. :roll:

 

[Daredevel7]

Okay okay, back to topic. Personally, I think deaf people who are teaching ASL should not have to be certified. However deaf people who are teaching everything should be certified.

Also I support a pay increase for the teachers!!!!

 

[shel90]

Okay okay, back to topic. Personally, I think deaf people who are teaching ASL should not have to be certified. However deaf people who are teaching everything should be certified.

Also I support a pay increase for the teachers!!!!

I probably would vouch for certification in ASL/Deaf culture instead of not being certified.

 

[Grummer]

I am telling you..there are people out there that have passed this test with flying colors but cant teach and people who are excellent teachers who are unable to pass this test.

There are also issues with test-taking anxiety in which can cause people to fail. That has to be taken into consideration also.

There is one Deaf guy I know who is a GREAT teacher but English is his 4th language after Quebec sign language, French, ASL! To me, I think he has a LOT more to offer to the Deaf students than someone who is monolingual.

His English isnt perfect BUT he has taught students and has brought their English levels up so many grade levels that he recieved an award. He is someone I would look up than some hearing teacher who can pass the test but cant teach!

It would be a shame if he got let go because of some test that doesnt really measure his true skills as a teacher. :roll:

I believe you, I understand, i knew that, this sort of thing is common, not only to teaching, but anything, surely there are talented people out there. Many of whom do not know what their real talents are, or where it lies. I have a 'friend' who is a hard nut on computers but he is useless - does not have paitence for people and yet he want to think about teaching people how to use computers all the while keeps insulting me as a noob, retard, too lazy to learn (wtf im a post grad student simply dont have TIME to be on PC doing PC-related stuff I am only happy to use it like a ordinary person would, im no longer interested in games, cracking, or any of the geek stuff. it is not likely he will pursue it now but still i dont like the idea of him doing that as it is in no way he got what it takes to RELATE to people in order to teach. (this brings back to the argument of ASL (sign languages) and speech in classrooms) the contents has to be accessible but THAT i mean , not dumbed down accessible (which is also now a common practise - real sad that one).

so we have like a doer, teacher, thinker, types of people.
One might know the subject so well but can't teach - simple and people got to realise that.

I cant teach,used to be able too but back then i was so involved in whatever i was doing, now im more leveled about things and lost the passion so now i cant teach, i just shrug. it weird how it happens.

 

[Daredevel7]

I probably would vouch for certification in ASL/Deaf culture instead of not being certified.

That works too.

 

[Reba]

...What about teachers who arent fluent in ASL in which students arent getting the proper model of language in the classroom setting?

That is a problem. I observe deaf adults who sign what they call ASL but it is not. When I ask them where did they learn to sign, they say in mainstream school from their teachers and terps.

It's very sad. They attend deaf functions (like silent dinners), and the older ASL crowd correct the signing of the mainstream graduates (some do so gently, some not so nice).

Except at the state school for the deaf, very few of the deaf kids here even meet a fluent ASL deaf adult until after they graduate from high school.

 

[Daredevel7]

Except at the state school for the deaf, very few of the deaf kids here even meet a fluent ASL deaf adult until after they graduate from high school.

That's pretty sad and most likely very significant for most deaf kids' education.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

That is a problem. I observe deaf adults who sign what they call ASL but it is not. When I ask them where did they learn to sign, they say in mainstream school from their teachers and terps.

It's very sad. They attend deaf functions (like silent dinners), and the older ASL crowd correct the signing of the mainstream graduates (some do so gently, some not so nice).

Except at the state school for the deaf, very few of the deaf kids here even meet a fluent ASL deaf adult until after they graduate from high school.

*shudders*

I remember being told "SEE" and "cued speech" is "ASL" while growing up in mainstream and that my way was wrong. I only knew this was wrong because I was raised on ASL (in school)/PSE (with my parents) until my parents moved to another city, then the only school that would accept deaf kids were one of an oralist method. Man, those manual systems screwed up a lot of kids. I was one confused child when my family moved.

Nothing is wrong with SEE and cued speech, but they need to be EXPLAINED to the students how those modules work and what their purposes are. I didn't get a breakdown of how SEE and cued speech worked until my final year of high school. Only then everything made more sense why I was treated as inferior by "interpreters" when the "interpreters" themselves can't even tell the difference between SEE and ASL. It was only after I was explained the differences between SEE, ASL and cued speech that I was able to keep ASL straight in my head.

Anyway, I was eventually told by the Deaf culture that the way I was taught before my parents moved when I was 13 was the right way and the school system in the new city was teaching the wrong way. It ticked me off back then, and it still ticks me off now. No wonder why kids are so awkward when they get out of high school.

 

[faire_jour]

Let me ask u this. Would u prefer a hearing teacher who is fluent in ASL than a deaf teacher who has no speech skills but has excellent written English skills in a BiBi program?

If parents want both, then why the requests for hearing teachers over deaf teachers? ASL is our language but we are starting to get pushed out in the programs that use ASL for the sake of spoken English.

Go figure..

Maybe I should tell my brother and other aspiring deaf teachers not to bother with this career for they may face discrimination just like these tests are discriminating them with the section on phonics/audio questions.

In a bi-bi program, I would expect them to figure out a way to make spoken language a part of the program for those who benefit. Ignoring it or saying 15 minutes a week in therapy is enough, just isn't realistic. You need fluent language models for both languages, and with today's technology that included the spoken aspect of English. I would expect the teacher with no spoken language skills to be prepared with a plan on how to implement that piece, perhaps by dual teaching or having a hearing aid in the class.

I don't know all the answers, but obviously you don't have a plan either.

 

[faire_jour]

Here we go, more folklore... First you state that you only can say what you have seen, like others can say what they have seen, then you say that all deaf children today can hear, don't lipread and guessing, and are hearing.

Guess it means I am a psycotic who is having imaginative visions when I met deaf children with cochlear implant that struggle to rely on speech and listening alone, and want to ditch their CI when it's no hearies around and prefer to talk with deaf people instead of hearing people.

I never said all deaf children. But many do. That is why Deaf school enrollment is going down. 95% of parents of deaf children want their children to learn to speak and listen, they may also want ASL too, but regardless of other factors, parents want spoken language. Why do you think that Deaf schools aren't getting more enrollment? Because the kids are listening and speaking and the Deaf schools are not willing to support that.

Yes, there is a percentage of kids with CI's who get little benefit. There are many factors that go into that. One factor is support and the opportunity to use the benefit. If a CI user is in a voice off enviroment, they aren't going to see a lot of benefit from the CI, and often will stop using it, because what it the point? It is a lot of work, and they don't need to do it, so they stop.

 

[faire_jour]

Let's be realistic. Bi-bi schools got speech therapy and hearies around. It's deaf children with decent speech in bi-bi schools, talking in phones etc. The truth is that bi-bi schools does not stop deaf children from developing speech, and deaf children will learn speech if they are capable to do so. I even know a deaf guy from deaf family that have decent speech, attending a state deaf school with shit speech therapy. But parents sometime blame bi-bi schools when their children show lack of speech development on par with other more oral competent deaf people or even hearing people. They put their children in a mainstream school or oral deaf school, but this seldom helps. Some children just don't develop "state of the art" speech, due to different issues like you describe in your blog, and if they don't do in a bi-bi school, just forget it. Sometimes one have to accept that everytime their child open the mouth in the future, they are gonna sound like a inhabitant living in duckberg or perhaps an alien speaking an unnameable language.

It does no one good to be a manic about the deafness of a child.

How does one develop good language? You must be around fluent users, and have the opportunity to use it and see it modeled all day long. You need to have mistakes corrected naturally and go through the developmentally appropriate stages of language. Right?? How does that happen for spoken language in a bi-bi school? It doesn't. Speech is worked on for very short periods of time with varing degrees of success. Language is a whole different game. You need exposure and use to become fluent in ANY language, and that includes spoken English.

 

[faire_jour]

That's the great secret among deaf people, decent ASL skills is really all one need

This is blantly untrue. You MUST have good English skills to function in the world. If you can't read or write but can sign beautifully you will never get a job.

 

[faire_jour]

Okay okay, back to topic. Personally, I think deaf people who are teaching ASL should not have to be certified. However deaf people who are teaching everything should be certified.

Also I support a pay increase for the teachers!!!!

I think if you are teaching, you need to be a teacher, and that includes passing the test. Can a hearing teacher who signs great (maybe an awesome CODA) who isn't certified teach too, as long it is just ASL?

 

[shel90]

In a bi-bi program, I would expect them to figure out a way to make spoken language a part of the program for those who benefit. Ignoring it or saying 15 minutes a week in therapy is enough, just isn't realistic. You need fluent language models for both languages, and with today's technology that included the spoken aspect of English. I would expect the teacher with no spoken language skills to be prepared with a plan on how to implement that piece, perhaps by dual teaching or having a hearing aid in the class.

I don't know all the answers, but obviously you don't have a plan either.

I have already stated different ideas in many other threads. Apparently, you havent read them. Oh well.

 

[shel90]

How does one develop good language? You must be around fluent users, and have the opportunity to use it and see it modeled all day long. You need to have mistakes corrected naturally and go through the developmentally appropriate stages of language. Right?? How does that happen for spoken language in a bi-bi school? It doesn't. Speech is worked on for very short periods of time with varing degrees of success. Language is a whole different game. You need exposure and use to become fluent in ANY language, and that includes spoken English.

That brings back to my question before..how did deaf children of deaf parents achieve fluency in English?

 

[shel90]

I never said all deaf children. But many do. That is why Deaf school enrollment is going down. 95% of parents of deaf children want their children to learn to speak and listen, they may also want ASL too, but regardless of other factors, parents want spoken language. Why do you think that Deaf schools aren't getting more enrollment? Because the kids are listening and speaking and the Deaf schools are not willing to support that.

Yes, there is a percentage of kids with CI's who get little benefit. There are many factors that go into that. One factor is support and the opportunity to use the benefit. If a CI user is in a voice off enviroment, they aren't going to see a lot of benefit from the CI, and often will stop using it, because what it the point? It is a lot of work, and they don't need to do it, so they stop.

That is blantly untrue..

 

[faire_jour]

That brings back to my question before..how did deaf children of deaf parents achieve fluency in English?

Spoken English? I don't know. You would have to ask them. But the truth is, to learn a language, you must be around fluent users and have the opportunity to learn it and use it.