Deaf teachers losing jobs because of English

shel90 said:
I grew up orally..I did NOT have full access to communication and language so did so many other deaf people and I continue to see it this day with deaf children coming from oral programs with language delays and deficits. U also see it with new members coming to AD upset about not feeling like they fit in. It still happens! How can that be the untruth? You have been applauding oralism and been critical of the Deaf community and ASL for a long time now so anything u say is gonna be taken with a grain of salt.
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I can only say what I have seen and experienced in my life, just like you can only speak to your experiences.

I have the perspective of a parent who has chosen to raise my Deaf child with ASL and now, a cochlear implant. She has access to speech in a way that you (and many others) obviously did not. She hears, and she hears very well. Many deaf children today are able to hear. You may not believe that, but it is a simple fact. If a child hears, they have access to spoken language. I am not saying it is perfect access, but there is no such thing as perfect. I am simply stating that deaf children today hear. They have very good access to spoken language through audition. They are not lipreading and guessing, they are hearing.

That being said, I personally believe that children with a hearing loss should be given sign from the start. If they don't need it, fine. But it they do, at least they never fell behind.

BUT, the things being said about "oralists", "oral parents", and "oral schools" simply are not true. Parents who choose spoken language are not only interested in speech, they are just as interested in language as a parent who chooses ASL. Good oral school focus on the whole child and their overall development not just their ears and mouth. I have seen it first hand.
 
faire_jour said:
I can only say what I have seen and experienced in my life, just like you can only speak to your experiences.

I have the perspective of a parent who has chosen to raise my Deaf child with ASL and now, a cochlear implant. She has access to speech in a way that you (and many others) obviously did not. She hears, and she hears very well. Many deaf children today are able to hear. You may not believe that, but it is a simple fact. If a child hears, they have access to spoken language. I am not saying it is perfect access, but there is no such thing as perfect. I am simply stating that deaf children today hear. They have very good access to spoken language through audition. They are not lipreading and guessing, they are hearing.

That being said, I personally believe that children with a hearing loss should be given sign from the start. If they don't need it, fine. But it they do, at least they never fell behind.

BUT, the things being said about "oralists", "oral parents", and "oral schools" simply are not true. Parents who choose spoken language are not only interested in speech, they are just as interested in language as a parent who chooses ASL. Good oral school focus on the whole child and their overall development not just their ears and mouth. I have seen it first hand.
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Can I really teach my child to talk?

Yes. Today’s cochlear implants and digital hearing aids allow most children who are deaf and hard of hearing to develop excellent listening and speaking skills. This is the focus of JTC's onsite preschool
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Miss Kat's Deaf journey Next quote from the blogspot, although I imagine that one will come down soon.

I also had the surgeon take a look at Miss Kat's brand new audiogram. He said that he did not feel that she should be a candidate for bilaterals. In fact, he seemed to question her getting the first CI. He said that there are too many benefits to "natural" (better word would be acoustical) hearing to go ahead with a CI on that side. I don't know what I think. I kinda feel like hearing aids are garbage! They have never helped Miss Kat. Maybe that is why I am so concerned about turning the aids up. I feel like they give her nothing but garbled speech. Why would I want to turn that noise up??
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Back to the topic...

Just as well that Deaf teachers lose their jobs cuz it seems that people dont want deaf people to teach their children anyway. Just seems like they would rather have hearing people teach them so they can speak and hear like hearing kids.


Deaf people are OUT!!! :lol:
 
shel90 said:
Back to the topic...

Just as well that Deaf teachers lose their jobs cuz it seems that people dont want deaf people to teach their children anyway. Just seems like they would rather have hearing people teach them so they can speak and hear like hearing kids.


Deaf people are OUT!!! :lol:
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Has anyone here said anything like that?
 
shel90 said:
If they are so right, then how come deaf children of deaf parents are on par with hearing children with literacy skills? Explain that..
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1) A little defensive there. I just thought Buffalo was being a little unfair to tha parents who want their kids to speak saying that they don't give a crap about their education, only their speaking skills. I'm just saying, they chose for them to speak BECAUSE they think that it will help their education, more than signing.

2) To answer your question, that's obvious. You don't need to speak to read. You need language to read. Language was already accessible with fluent ASL signers (the deaf parents).
 
Reba said:
I don't see any correlation there at all.
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Neither do I. If anything people who are Pro CI/curbies are generally pro science at all costs.

I think religious people are more likely to accept. After all it's in this new age of blinding science that oralism has been most of a problem. Science is simply the new 'god'. People believe everything they read about science. I don't.

I don't believe in creatism either but that's beside the point. I believe that man came from Monkey's but god had a hand in it somewhere along the line.

I'll edit that. I am not even sure if man did come from monkeys. I believe there is a lot we as humans don't know. By worshiping science we are just replacing one set of ideas for another. Until mankind actually gets to think for themselves we are all doomed.
 
faire_jour said:
Has anyone here said anything like that?
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No one but let's not delude ourselves here...do u honestly think the CI medical community will encourage parents to put their children under a deaf signer in the educational system? Do u think parents who want oralism are gonna want deaf signers teaching their children? It is already happening IRL with more and more parents requesting hearing teachers for their implanted children even though the instruction is taught via ASL. Now, imagine that for a parent who wants oral-only.

Come on...be realistic...with the attitudes out there against deaf people who don't have speech skills, I wouldn't be surprised.

Deaf people who have no speech skills have always been looked down in society so a hearing teacher is more likely be more respected than the deaf teacher by society in general.

Iam working at a public school now and there have been comments by other staff about my ability to teach because I don't use my voice in the classroom and rely on a terp for meetings. :roll:
 
shel90 said:
No one but let's not delude ourselves here...do u honestly think the CI medical community will encourage parents to put their children under a deaf signer in the educational system? Do u think parents who want oralism are gonna want deaf signers teaching their children? It is already happening IRL with more and more parents requesting hearing teachers for their implanted children even though the instruction is taught via ASL. Now, imagine that for a parent who wants oral-only.

Come on...be realistic...with the attitudes out there against deaf people who don't have speech skills, I wouldn't be surprised.

Deaf people who have no speech skills have always been looked down in society so a hearing teacher is more likely be more respected than the deaf teacher by society in general.

Iam working at a public school now and there have been comments by other staff about my ability to teach because I don't use my voice in the classroom and rely on a terp for meetings. :roll:
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What do you think should happen? If I want my child to learn fluent spoken language (and it is possible for my child) who should teach them that? Where will she get the practice and who will teach her? She needs to have a good language model, just like she does for ASL. She needs opportunities to use it and to have it corrected. Who can do that?

What is your solution? I am trying to be realistic too. I think my child deserves both, and I think that she needs a teacher who is a model of both languages (in bi-bi school that is written English) but for my child it is spoken language. What do you think parents like me should do? Should we just not care about that aspect?
 
faire_jour said:
What do you think should happen? If I want my child to learn fluent spoken language (and it is possible for my child) who should teach them that? Where will she get the practice and who will teach her? She needs to have a good language model, just like she does for ASL. She needs opportunities to use it and to have it corrected. Who can do that?

What is your solution? I am trying to be realistic too. I think my child deserves both, and I think that she needs a teacher who is a model of both languages (in bi-bi school that is written English) but for my child it is spoken language. What do you think parents like me should do? Should we just not care about that aspect?
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Let me ask u this. Would u prefer a hearing teacher who is fluent in ASL than a deaf teacher who has no speech skills but has excellent written English skills in a BiBi program?

If parents want both, then why the requests for hearing teachers over deaf teachers? ASL is our language but we are starting to get pushed out in the programs that use ASL for the sake of spoken English.

Go figure..

Maybe I should tell my brother and other aspiring deaf teachers not to bother with this career for they may face discrimination just like these tests are discriminating them with the section on phonics/audio questions.
 
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faire_jour said:
What do you think should happen? If I want my child to learn fluent spoken language (and it is possible for my child) who should teach them that? Where will she get the practice and who will teach her? She needs to have a good language model, just like she does for ASL. She needs opportunities to use it and to have it corrected. Who can do that?

What is your solution? I am trying to be realistic too. I think my child deserves both, and I think that she needs a teacher who is a model of both languages (in bi-bi school that is written English) but for my child it is spoken language. What do you think parents like me should do? Should we just not care about that aspect?
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Your child has opportunities for spoken language development outside of the school anyway.

Learning the content areas is what counts for education not speech skills. That can be accomplished via ASL. That's where the problem lies.
 
After reading through this thread, thought I'd add something. So far the discussion is focused on english as the primary instigator behind all these issues that are being brought up relating from job pay, layoffs, or pass/fails and so on.

What about mathematics? It is undisputedly an area with a language of its own. Of course you have to get the basics from addition up to algebra 1 down before you can kick off into the other areas.. However is this one of the sections that having ASL is a nice added bonus, but not completely necessary?

I am thinking on the basis of grade schools where there are period sections split between faculty that each specialize in their own educational expertise, like junior high or high school.


I used to be an instructor for a tutoring company during my late highschool / college years, instructing students from K-12 for over 4 years. Yeah, they were all hearing students and none were deaf, but there's one thing I'd like to bring in here: Not all of them spoke english. They had their own native tongues and spoke their own languages, some were just green from overseas or the borders being the first generation of their family to become an American. So I am considering that they, just like deaf children who rely on ASL, are in an area where english communication isn't the main factor of teaching. (What I mean is, I would consider these non-english speakers are just the same as deaf people, because I couldn't communicate with them.)

In the math section, I would usually have no trouble instructing and teaching from addition up until around basic geometry and trigonometry level. Then calculus and beyond is where one really had to be sure the student understood exactly what was going on, and communication is the only key. But, Alg II / Trig / Geo / Calc 1-2-3-4 are generally high school, college level and beyond.

But since the discussion seems to silently focus on PreK/Kindergarten up till around end of elementary, I would assume that advanced mathematics is out of the discussion here.

I guess my point is, that probably anyone could teach math up until a certain extent, although knowledge of ASL will speed up the process? Like, this will be a reason for hearing mathematicians to be able to teach at a deaf school without having full proficiency in ASL.


Reba said:
If teachers aren't up to snuff, the parents need to take action.
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I wanna add a bit on to this part. I was reading somewhere in ASL class about a statistical fact that in deaf society, 90% of deaf children have parents that are hearing. That means the minimum of all deaf children out there, 10% of them can communicate with their parents. I don't know about how many know sign in that 90%, so that is one hindering issue on parent-child social facilitation.
 
naisho said:
After reading through this thread, thought I'd add something. So far the discussion is focused on english as the primary instigator behind all these issues that are being brought up relating from job pay, layoffs, or pass/fails and so on.

What about mathematics? It is undisputedly an area with a language of its own. Of course you have to get the basics from addition up to algebra 1 down before you can kick off into the other areas.. However is this one of the sections that having ASL is a nice added bonus, but not completely necessary?

I am thinking on the basis of grade schools where there are period sections split between faculty that each specialize in their own educational expertise, like junior high or high school.


I used to be an instructor for a tutoring company during my late highschool / college years, instructing students from K-12 for over 4 years. Yeah, they were all hearing students and none were deaf, but there's one thing I'd like to bring in here: Not all of them spoke english. They had their own native tongues and spoke their own languages, some were just green from overseas or the borders being the first generation of their family to become an American. So I am considering that they, just like deaf children who rely on ASL, are in an area where english communication isn't the main factor of teaching. (What I mean is, I would consider these non-english speakers are just the same as deaf people, because I couldn't communicate with them.)

In the math section, I would usually have no trouble instructing and teaching from addition up until around basic geometry and trigonometry level. Then calculus and beyond is where one really had to be sure the student understood exactly what was going on, and communication is the only key. But, Alg II / Trig / Geo / Calc 1-2-3-4 are generally high school, college level and beyond.

But since the discussion seems to silently focus on PreK/Kindergarten up till around end of elementary, I would assume that advanced mathematics is out of the discussion here.

I guess my point is, that probably anyone could teach math up until a certain extent, although knowledge of ASL will speed up the process? Like, this will be a reason for hearing mathematicians to be able to teach at a deaf school without having full proficiency in ASL.




I wanna add a bit on to this part. I was reading somewhere in ASL class about a statistical fact that in deaf society, 90% of deaf children have parents that are hearing. That means the minimum of all deaf children out there, 10% of them can communicate with their parents. I don't know about how many know sign in that 90%, so that is one hindering issue on parent-child social facilitation.
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Did you know that ASL is the better language to use when teaching math because it relies on spatial orienation just like math does?
 
faire_jour said:
Not true at all. I just spent 3 weeks at an all oral school. It is a very good school with very well respected professionals. EVERY SINGLE day we learned about language. Our children were in language rich environments with teachers who were very skilled in teaching spoken LANGUAGE to deaf children. My daughter had 3 LANGUAGE assessments done. They never ever did rote speech work, they couldn't have cared less about articulation. They wanted receptive and expressive language.

When was the last time you spent that much time at an oral deaf school? I was there on Monday.
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I obviously have seen more oral schools than you, no need to put my knowledge down, thank you. It's folklore and even more folklore you are describing here. The style you are describing is actually the what they have done in many oral schools for years, but with your limited experience you are impressed, and the teachers know that. That's a part of the game in oral schools, to impress hearing parents, and less focus on what children want if they truly could choose themselves. The philosophy of oral education got flaws, but like in the example of climate change, people like you aren't gonna belive it got flaws even if research are pulled up.

So, gonna tell us more folklore tales?
 
faire_jour said:
I can only say what I have seen and experienced in my life, just like you can only speak to your experiences.

I have the perspective of a parent who has chosen to raise my Deaf child with ASL and now, a cochlear implant. She has access to speech in a way that you (and many others) obviously did not. She hears, and she hears very well. Many deaf children today are able to hear. You may not believe that, but it is a simple fact. If a child hears, they have access to spoken language. I am not saying it is perfect access, but there is no such thing as perfect. I am simply stating that deaf children today hear. They have very good access to spoken language through audition. They are not lipreading and guessing, they are hearing.

That being said, I personally believe that children with a hearing loss should be given sign from the start. If they don't need it, fine. But it they do, at least they never fell behind.

BUT, the things being said about "oralists", "oral parents", and "oral schools" simply are not true. Parents who choose spoken language are not only interested in speech, they are just as interested in language as a parent who chooses ASL. Good oral school focus on the whole child and their overall development not just their ears and mouth. I have seen it first hand.
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Here we go, more folklore... First you state that you only can say what you have seen, like others can say what they have seen, then you say that all deaf children today can hear, don't lipread and guessing, and are hearing.

Guess it means I am a psycotic who is having imaginative visions when I met deaf children with cochlear implant that struggle to rely on speech and listening alone, and want to ditch their CI when it's no hearies around and prefer to talk with deaf people instead of hearing people.
 
flip said:
Here we go, more folklore... First you state that you only can say what you have seen, like others can say what they have seen, then you say that all deaf children today can hear, don't lipread and guessing, and are hearing.

Guess it means I am a psycotic who is having imaginative visions when I met deaf children with cochlear implant that struggle to rely on speech and listening alone, and want to ditch their CI when it's no hearies around and prefer to talk with deaf people instead of hearing people.
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U are psycotic and need help! :lol:
 
faire_jour said:
What do you think should happen? If I want my child to learn fluent spoken language (and it is possible for my child) who should teach them that? Where will she get the practice and who will teach her? She needs to have a good language model, just like she does for ASL. She needs opportunities to use it and to have it corrected. Who can do that?

What is your solution? I am trying to be realistic too. I think my child deserves both, and I think that she needs a teacher who is a model of both languages (in bi-bi school that is written English) but for my child it is spoken language. What do you think parents like me should do? Should we just not care about that aspect?
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Let's be realistic. Bi-bi schools got speech therapy and hearies around. It's deaf children with decent speech in bi-bi schools, talking in phones etc. The truth is that bi-bi schools does not stop deaf children from developing speech, and deaf children will learn speech if they are capable to do so. I even know a deaf guy from deaf family that have decent speech, attending a state deaf school with shit speech therapy. But parents sometime blame bi-bi schools when their children show lack of speech development on par with other more oral competent deaf people or even hearing people. They put their children in a mainstream school or oral deaf school, but this seldom helps. Some children just don't develop "state of the art" speech, due to different issues like you describe in your blog, and if they don't do in a bi-bi school, just forget it. Sometimes one have to accept that everytime their child open the mouth in the future, they are gonna sound like a inhabitant living in duckberg or perhaps an alien speaking an unnameable language.

It does no one good to be a manic about the deafness of a child.
 
Two things to add here,

firstly Nasiho's comments on the 9 of 10 deaf students begin from hearing parent/sfamily, - this not only shows the strain of child-parent communication due to this barrier, but also it explains why there is overwhelming 'insistence' of parents wanting/need their child/children to their 'mothers tongues'. what is needed there is a fresh research findings to demonstrate why this has itself contributed to the enormous emotional strain on the deaf child/childern due to family pressure to conform to normalcy of 'spoken languages'.
Secondly, Shel's most recent post about ASL being well suited to use for teaching mathematics, well in formal school when students are young and maths being relatively easy, then yes ASL is superior but I hate to say, as sophistication of
mathematics raises in a high school but more usually beyong high school into college/technical institutes and university levels, you would see discussions of mathematics become increasingly reliant on elusive complex english words. These highly evolved mathematical concepts are not independent of an equally highly evolved English words used for descriptive semiotics but also to embody discourses holding mathematical concepts. But again ASL/signs is not to be underestimated as well as underminded when importance of cognitive development of students are discussed even debated. It is extraordinary that parents fails to comprehend the relevance of their children to have access to LEARNING at an age-appropriate pace alongside their hearing counterparts. Far too many hearing educators (and d/Deaf?) resonate their parent's concerns with false promises of a better long-term effect held in the matter of the mislead concepts of 'communication', what then is communication when we fail to provide d/Deaf students/children an appropriate mode to actually tap their intellectual developement? Sign language (dont forget d/Deaf people dont only exist in America !,GRRR )/ASL is often mistakenly seen as an easy way out, it is NOT, d/Deaf students are still going to be subject to be bombardment by the 'normal' conventions of voice/hearing mode of communications. But when we see d/Deaf to possess a well-developed intellect although not taught in conventional mode (spoken English, and/or signed English) it automatically becomes apparent that its not a case of what manual/labour work can 'we source them'. Rather, it becomes 'what work' while can we secure and yet we are faced with more challenges of enforcing 'accomodations' in workplaces as the variety of jobs has widened unprecedentedly due more d/Deaf students possessing intellectual capability than in the past. Hearing society have to catch up with reality of there is More educated d/Deaf people. I am not sure if I am being clear here, but it also seems perplexing on the why are we now experiencing MORE struggle in the arena of politics as it is a reflection of society with tighter workforces, put differently, to make more room for their Hearing childrens future ?? I admit this seems radical, even flawed but it's hard not to wonder about this.
 
Grummer, basically you are saying that the general hearing society want to keep deaf people as oppressed as they can so they dont have to compete with them in the workforce? Trying to make sure that I interpret your post correctly. Thanks!
 
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