District files appeal against deaf student

[deafdyke]

It's an oralist dream to be mainstreamed with little help via sign but it was a nightmare for me. The oralists decided that I could be mainstreamed in the fourth grade. I will admit that not all of my problems were due to being deaf. My ADHD caused problems as well but I didn't know I had it till I was 28.

You know, one thing I don't understand. Why is it that oralists view 'terps as a "crutch", but yet the oral accomondations that oral folks use aren't a "crutch?"
You might not have ADD/HD.........ADD-like behvaoir is VERY common in oral dhh kids. However its not real ADD. Its more that they expend a lot of energy on speech and hearing, so they tend to act out. Put an oral kid in an ASL/TC program and ADD/HD is very rare in those types of programs.
Jackie, I reread the article. It says in the article that the classroom set up is the traditional "teacher in front, with students in rows" set up. One VERY simple solution, that would not cost so much is changing the seating arrangment from tradtional, to "discussion circle" based. That way your daughter could see what students are saying! It's a simple but effective way that costs absolutly nothing! Why are you so resistant to low tech solutions?

 

[deafskeptic]

Yes, I agree that it's normal for deaf to have ADD like behavior but my behavior regarding school didn't change even when I went to deaf school. Most deaf children seem to calm down once they are placed in a setting that they can thrive in.

It's not normal for deaf to have problems with with organization; they don't lose things like ATM cards 13 times in a year or forget to turn off car lights like five times a year.

Another sign is that they're easily distracted. My terps have told me they could tell when I'm wearing my hearing aid (this was before I got implanted) because sounds as well as movements would distract me.

Another sign is a low frustration level and that has landed me in Civil court once. I was late to work and I got fed up with the slow traffic and jerked my car to the left lane and I was following too closely and wrecked my dad's favorite car. My dad ended up with a lawsuit. I never knew the outcome as I was afraid to ask.

Some adders will put things in the wrong place; I remember I put the dishes in the fridge and my cornbread salad in the cabinet. I was pissed off when I found it in the cabinet after searching for it for an half hour. Or they'll leave food out when they meant to put it in the fridge. I've certainly done that more times than I care to remember.

I have a tendency to overact in some situations. I've learned to avoid or to mimalize such situations.

My parents think I need to take anger management classes. I disagree as no one else ever have said that to me. However, my parents have a way of ignoring me when they're bent on doing something.

The last time they went shopping with me, I told them I needed to eat first as I'm diabetic. They said they'd get something to eat on the way. 3 hours later, my stomach is hurting and I'm starting to feel shakey. I had to ask several times over for something to eat. I was also stressed out as I was having problems with my recruiment and it was getting painful. I got a small bar but I'm afraid I also lost it. My parents told me that my behavior was disgraceful.
I don't visit my parents very often as I know from experince that they'll ignore my boundries and expect me to be able to function just like them.

The problems I've listed are more typical of ADD; most deaf don't have these problems. These are not typical deaf behavior at all.

If a deaf person has bad mood swings, I'm sure many will think think it's due to being deaf when it could be Bipolar. You cant' just say all deaf have that problem. You have to make sure that it's not typical of a deaf person to have this problem.

The doctor who dx'ed me had to rule out both thyroid and deafness first to arrive at this dx.

 

[jillio]

Yes, I agree that it's normal for deaf to have ADD like behavior but my behavior regarding school didn't change even when I went to deaf school. Most deaf children seem to calm down once they are placed in a setting that they can thrive in.

It's not normal for deaf to have problems with with organization; they don't lose things like ATM cards 13 times in a year or forget to turn off car lights like five times a year.

Another sign is that they're easily distracted. My terps have told me they could tell when I'm wearing my hearing aid (this was before I got implanted) because sounds as well as movements would distract me.

Another sign is a low frustration level and that has landed me in Civil court once. I was late to work and I got fed up with the slow traffic and jerked my car to the left lane and I was following too closely and wrecked my dad's favorite car. My dad ended up with a lawsuit. I never knew the outcome as I was afraid to ask.

Some adders will put things in the wrong place; I remember I put the dishes in the fridge and my cornbread salad in the cabinet. I was pissed off when I found it in the cabinet after searching for it for an half hour. Or they'll leave food out when they meant to put it in the fridge. I've certainly done that more times than I care to remember.

I have a tendency to overact in some situations. I've learned to avoid or to mimalize such situations.

My parents think I need to take anger management classes. I disagree as no one else ever have said that to me. However, my parents have a way of ignoring me when they're bent on doing something.

The last time they went shopping with me, I told them I needed to eat first as I'm diabetic. They said they'd get something to eat on the way. 3 hours later, my stomach is hurting and I'm starting to feel shakey. I had to ask several times over for something to eat. I was also stressed out as I was having problems with my recruiment and it was getting painful. I got a small bar but I'm afraid I also lost it. My parents told me that my behavior was disgraceful.
I don't visit my parents very often as I know from experince that they'll ignore my boundries and expect me to be able to function just like them.

The problems I've listed are more typical of ADD; most deaf don't have these problems. These are not typical deaf behavior at all.

If a deaf person has bad mood swings, I'm sure many will think think it's due to being deaf when it could be Bipolar. You cant' just say all deaf have that problem. You have to make sure that it's not typical of a deaf person to have this problem.

The doctor who dx'ed me had to rule out both thyroid and deafness first to arrive at this dx.

Gonna have to agree with you on this dx. And, hope I don't offend, but the behavior I see as shameful is that of your parents, not you.

 

[deafskeptic]

I'm not offended. I thought my parents were the ones out of line.

 

[deafdyke]

Oh definitly............I'm not one of those people who think ADD/HD doesn't exist. Just that its a lot less common then lots of people think. It's good that your doc ruled stuff out before giving you that dx. He sounds like a good doc....a lot of times docs will just leap on the most likely dx without really investigating alternative possibilties.
It does sound like you're one of the ones who do legitimatly have it. (you know, how there are cases where you look at someone and think "oh they could have it, but then a lot of "normal" people have those tendancies as well) I didn't know your back story that's all.

 

[Cloggy]

.............. And, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." ............

The shortest distance between two point ... is under construction....

 

[SJCSue]

Well, pek, situations such as this are so infuriating that it is indeed tempting. However, I suspect that, based on the way that jackie has handled herself here, with all of her contradictions and inability to support her postion in a rational manner, any thinking judge will see right through her. I'm certainthe school district already has, or they wouldn't be appealing. They aren't going to appeal a case they don't feel they can win. Besides, I really don't see the need to lower myself to the same juvenile tactics and attempts at intimidation that have been made by rick and jackie. There are more effective ways to accomplish advocacy than resorting to school yard bullyng and name calling. I prefer to abide by ethical standards, and accomplish change the way it is effective.......through intelligent presentation of the facts, and by having enough knowledge to refute those who question the methodology.

Jillio, when you hold yourself to high ethical standards, you show the world what you believe.

Rick and Jackie: Schoolyard bullying and name calling will NOT make people think highly of you.

 

[SJCSue]

Haven't been on AD much due to no Internet access at my new home due to some signal problems. the tech was supposed to come yeaterday but got delayed so he will come on Monday.

Anyways, I went thru the recent posts thru my pager...slllloooowww but I had the time this evening..lol!

Welcome Back, Shel!

 

[jillio]

Jillio, when you hold yourself to high ethical standards, you show the world what you believe.

Rick and Jackie: Schoolyard bullying and name calling will NOT make people think highly of you.

Thanks, Sue!

 

[jag]

I am from a working class family and all of my extended family is working class. And I do not expect my kids to go an Ivy League college. We are thinking Cal State or UC system.

I am so sorry that both my husband and I have worked so hard to try to get out of the working class. It is like we have one foot in and one foot out.

Jackie when did working class exclude the middle class. I'm concidered in the higher income catagory of my state for tax purposes, but I do have to work, so I am working class. Of course in my state anyone making over 62,500/yr is concided to be high income, nothing like being so rich. And I wouldn't be surprised if many here actually make more then my family has. And neither myself nor my husband have gone to college.

As you all can see I do not concider working class to be a reason to excuse my lack of education nor a reason for what I concider my success. Is it good to climb the ladder of success. YES. go for it. But don't forget that class warfare is very rediculous. IMO What I live on comfortably in CA might be concidered working class, so who would make the determination? We can all achieve if we work at it. This includes those deaf children who fall into the catagory of their parents not making sure they were educated in their LRE WITH the appropriate accomodations. Parents are a big part of the success but not necessarily the only reason. Determination and hard work are also necessary.

 

[Sweetmind]

First of all, I would like to say Hello to Jillo and thank you again for your support. Thank you again Shel90! thank you so much for understanding. this topic makes me so angry, I just had to say something. We got no breaks after all the fighting for Deaf children's rights. Hearing people think they know everything and won't listen to us. Why do they always have to control our lives? We have good hearts and minds. How dare people take our visual language away from us?? That is telling us that they don't understand what communication really means to them. We are different from them. So What? Cant we just accept our deafness? Is that a problem? Because of their attitudes, I grew up hating myself for being deaf, I was unable to let myself be "Deaf". It took a long time for me to realize that it is ok to be deaf.

Second of all, In my earlier post, I referred to the term stupid when describing sounds. What I meant was all the noise pollution in the hallways and such, of the schools. How dare hearing people think that we, deaf people, can hear everything with a device? That turns me right off. They cant fix our deafness. That's the way it is. Live with it!

I believe in a two way street. I believe the children have the right to real communication that works with them well. ASL and English Signed with voices or without it. It doesn't matter anymore. Let deaf children adapt on their own, naturally. That's positive of being deaf to feel in their own heart, not yours.

Bi Bi language is a very good choice for many learning disabilities that we might have but not know it. They are still young. there must be a reason they cant understand oral only. Give the kids a break and give them their liberty and freedom of deaf identity. Thats why i put my quote. If you don't understand my quote which is on the bottom of my page, I ll tell you. It s not just for Deaf children but it helps many hearing children to have a good attitude about our deafness that is all it matters. However, I m outspoken for any Deaf children's rights as long as I live.

Hearing people Can, Can, Can but they Can't seem to make a positive difference for Deaf children/people. Hearing people say that Deaf children/people Can't, Can't, Can't. But, we seem to be the only ones who are able to make that difference! I must remind you, I am NOT referring to "ALL hearing people", just the ones who are prejudiced and discriminate(d) against us.n They failed to accept us and our deafness completely from the day one for many years.

The last thing I want to say.. Don't expect deaf children to depend on materialistic things so much because they need human contact, eye contact, and physical contact. Person to person; not 3rd person. So that way Deaf children can express their own feelings from their heart without any conformity or force.

Thank you!!

Sweetmind

"Pure, Simple, Natural, Honest Total Communication; loving bonds between Deaf and Hearing people in this diverse world." Fact of Sweetmind's Beliefs in Natural Method: ASL. It tells you that there is "two way street" for Hearing and d/Deaf people.

 

[jillio]

First of all, I would like to say Hello to Jillo and thank you again for your support. Thank you again Shel90! thank you so much for understanding. this topic makes me so angry, I just had to say something. We got no breaks after all the fighting for Deaf children's rights. Hearing people think they know everything and won't listen to us. Why do they always have to control our lives? We have good hearts and minds. How dare people take our visual language away from us?? That is telling us that they don't understand what communication really means to them. We are different from them. So What? Cant we just accept our deafness? Is that a problem? Because of their attitudes, I grew up hating myself for being deaf, I was unable to let myself be "Deaf". It took a long time for me to realize that it is ok to be deaf.

Second of all, In my earlier post, I referred to the term stupid when describing sounds. What I meant was all the noise pollution in the hallways and such, of the schools. How dare hearing people think that we, deaf people, can hear everything with a device? That turns me right off. They cant fix our deafness. That's the way it is. Live with it!

I believe in a two way street. I believe the children have the right to real communication that works with them well. ASL and English Signed with voices or without it. It doesn't matter anymore. Let deaf children adapt on their own, naturally. That's positive of being deaf to feel in their own heart, not yours.

Bi Bi language is a very good choice for many learning disabilities that we might have but not know it. They are still young. there must be a reason they cant understand oral only. Give the kids a break and give them their liberty and freedom of deaf identity. Thats why i put my quote. If you don't understand my quote which is on the bottom of my page, I ll tell you. It s not just for Deaf children but it helps many hearing children to have a good attitude about our deafness that is all it matters. However, I m outspoken for any Deaf children's rights as long as I live.

Hearing people Can, Can, Can but they Can't seem to make a positive difference for Deaf children/people. Hearing people say that Deaf children/people Can't, Can't, Can't. But, we seem to be the only ones who are able to make that difference! I must remind you, I am NOT referring to "ALL hearing people", just the ones who are prejudiced and discriminate(d) against us.n They failed to accept us and our deafness completely from the day one for many years.

The last thing I want to say.. Don't expect deaf children to depend on materialistic things so much because they need human contact, eye contact, and physical contact. Person to person; not 3rd person. So that way Deaf children can express their own feelings from their heart without any conformity or force.

Thank you!!

Sweetmind

And you are welcome, sweetmind.

 

[deafdyke]

jag,
the only reason why class even came up is b/c its a FACT that those with more money tend to be more sucessful and to have the abilty to channel more resources into their kid's educations. Like even a "working class" family with OK private insurance will be more sucessful then a working class family with state insurance.

 

[pek1]

Are you out of your mind?

And another case of the pot calling the kettle black!

 

[pek1]

You know, one thing I don't understand. Why is it that oralists view 'terps as a "crutch", but yet the oral accomondations that oral folks use aren't a "crutch?"

Because people like jackie and rich think their way is better.

Jackie, I reread the article. It says in the article that the classroom set up is the traditional "teacher in front, with students in rows" set up. One VERY simple solution, that would not cost so much is changing the seating arrangment from tradtional to "discussion circle" based. That way your daughter could see what students are saying! It's a simple but effective way that costs absolutly nothing! Why are you so resistant to low tech solutions?

See my prior comment. Seriously. On another note, they would have to set up an exploratory committee to write up a feasibility study for this. Then it has to go to review. Then back to the committee to tweek it because of things in the study that the committee doesn't like (besides all of it). This could take years, if not decades. In other words, she and others like her are hostile to it, because it is something they didn't think of first and they're mad about it and will not make it part of the policy.

 

[deafdyke]

LOL Pete. I quite agree with you. It's basicly the whining oral only people do about how wonderful it is to function without "depending" on a 'terp. But yet, in their next breath they complain and moan b/c oral folks don't get accomondation simliar or equalivant to 'terps.
You know a BIG part of why I am anti-oral only, is b/c of the pyschological damage that can and does happen in this methodology. Sure, its not blatently abusive, like in the old days. However the "healthy normal" mentality is STILL there. Sign is STILL seen as "only for oral failures" , or "special needs" AG Bell types are nominally "OK" with Sign, but then they start yapping on and on about how wonderful it is that their child doesn't have to depend on a 'terp.

 

[deafskeptic]

:roll: Why do they have to be an @ss about simple solutions, Pek1?

I remember the inside of MSSD well; all the classrooms were in an octagonal shape to make it easier to arrange desks in a circle so students could face each other. I remember getting lost in the building my first few days there LOL.

I wonder if KDES is built the same way?

 

[pek1]

The reason why I support on the Bi-Bi method is because of my own experiences with the oral program and my knowledge is also influenced by the tales that my classmate have told me about their problems with the oral only approach. I shall cite my own experience with being mainstreamed. It's an oralist dream to be mainstreamed with little help via sign but it was a nightmare for me. The oralists decided that I could be mainstreamed in the fourth grade. I will admit that not all of my problems were due to being deaf. My ADHD caused problems as well but I didn't know I had it till I was 28. I will cite examples of what being mainstreamed was like for me.

When I entered public school in the 4th grade, I was the only deaf child in that school. At first, everything went well. Toward the end of the fourth grade, my homework sessions ended up in screaming fests because my parents were concerned that I be up to par with my hearing peers. They'd tell me that me that I was setting up myself for failure and that I was throwing away my future. I tended to lose homework a lot and stuff. My parents resented the fact that my brother and sister didn't need as much help as I did and they called me a lazy child who didn’t want to succeed.

Every summer, I had to have a tutor come to me and she'd give me homework so I could be up to grade in public school. I felt like I had no freedom at all. I had to go to college. It wasn’t negotiable.

By the fifth grade, my mother told me it was already too late for me to get into a good college because my grades were poor and that I was failing stuff. She'd tell me that I had no future. I talked to my teacher if I was doing ok in English class, as I hadn't seen any F in my class even though my mother said I was failing it. My teacher told me I was doing fine in it. Even my teacher's reassurances weren’t convincing; I thought the only future I had was to be a bum.

By the sixth grade, I didn't do my homework as it was not worth the trouble and stress that I went through. It's not worth being screamed at every night or not being allowed a break. When I did do my homework, I refused to let my parents help.

Because of my ADHD, writing was difficult for me. If you have trouble focusing on stuff, writing by hand can be an ordeal. My resource teacher was big on make sure our papers was perfect in grammar and spelling and every time I misspelled something, I had to redo the whole paper by hand. This was before computers were widely used. I consider computers a godsend. Writing on paper is like writing on stone tablets for me.

I got so far behind that I had to repeat the 6th grade, I had to repeat it and not only that, I didn't get to go the good middle school like the smart deaf kids. I wanted to go to my sister's middle school. I stayed at that middle school for only 3 months before going to deaf school.

I remember my Spanish class well because it was such a nightmare. There was another guy with a moderate hearing loss and I had to wear the phonic ear. I loved Phonic Ear in the 4th grade but now I hated it, as I wanted to be like everyone else in the sixth grade. Anyway, the whole class was done in Spanish with little visual aid. I remember my Spanish teacher wanted to know why I couldn't learn Spanish when the other deaf guy could learn it. I pointed out that he could hear better than me. She pointed out that I wore the phonic ear and that I should be able to hear just fine with it. I had no answer for her. I thought all the problems I had with school was my own fault.

Going to my parents for help was the last thing I'd do. They say that they tried to get help for me and stuff but I find it hard to believe as I was made to believe that it was all my fault.

I keep thinking that if I hadn't had ADHD, mainstream would have been a cakewalk for me despite my deafness but I wonder.

I do not want any deaf child of mine to go through what I went through. It's not worth it. My family still thinks I didn’t try hard enough.

I hope jackie and rich read this and cry. This is what they both support and it could have triggered you to commit suicide. My own experience wasn't that bad, but I have been called lazy, before the incompetent doctors/audiologists misdiagnosed my own hearing loss, long last, before my fifth grade year.

Why deaf/hoh are forced to learn to speak foreign languages is beyond me. I tried both Swedish and Danish and failed them both. Fortunately, they weren't taken for college credit! The teacher that said that to you was incompetent and needs to return to school herself to learn how hearing and learning affects the deaf/hoh child. Obviously, she wasn't paying attention that day when they covered it at the undergraduate level.

Your family, specifically your parents. This is so sad. I don't believe for one minute they "tried" to get help for you. I hope rick and jackie see this and it makes them question, deep down, if their method is the best method for deaf/hoh children, especially their own. I don't believe it is, based on not only my own experience, but the experiences of several other deaf/hoh people on alldeaf. By fifth grade, that comment was way too early to make by your mother, as she doesn't know. I know my parents were helping me one time with math and my dad got mad at me because I couldn't understand it that he slapped me hard on the back. To this day, I despise math and believe it shouldn't have to be a required class in college.

But, to blame yourself, honey, is not your place. YOU (capital letters used for emphasis) did the best you could under the circumstances and you've proven people like jackie and rick wrong, as well as all other oralists. None of this is your fault and you are not to blame yourself. This blame goes first to your parents who allowed you to be in an oralist setting (which is what jackie and rich like and what they enjoy seeing deaf/hoh students struggle), your teachers, the school and the school district. Last, but not least, your doctors are also at fault for not catching this. Your audiologist should have been aware of this. A reason for not being so is probably something the educators enjoyed keeping it from him/her.

 

[deafskeptic]

Thank you, Pete. I've had problems with bouts of depressions since grade school days and some of have been so bad that I used to wonder if I'd live to be 40. Problems with depression and Bipolar runs in my family; several members of my family have been hospitlized for it.

Both of my parents have worked in the medical field; my dad is a retired doctor and my mom was a nurse before she married my father.

They've known I was deaf since I was 9 mo old. I do not recall many visits with my audiologist though. My parents are not very flexible about things and I think that's what caused a lot of problems for me.

 

[jillio]

And another case of the pot calling the kettle black!

Seems to be an epidemic!