Considering implant for your child

[Jezie]

Nope. They only become this so-called "cultural or linguistic minority" by deprivation of both a sense and their natural culture. Their natural culture is the one they are born into within their family.

A tiny group of Deafies salivating over an infant born into the world with a broken sense, hungry to grab them from their families and natural culture to make them like them is creepy. Their lack of or limitation in that sense doesn't automatically make them one of yours anymore than an adult going deaf does. There are ways to prevent their being sucked into a culture that depends on inability to interact with the world at large, just like becoming religious can be staved off by education.

I'm for full access for children born or going deaf. They can decide as they get older if they want to be part of or even like your world. They'll have that choice versus just defaulting because they have no choice.

This is a great thread! Any parent with half a brain reading it is going to do everything they can for their child to access world at large versus handing them over to deaf adherents that use cultish "logic."

It really is bizarre that a "late-deafened" individual shows no signs of ever having actually been that and is one of those being loudest about "culture"... a culture you were never born into and is not really yours... which explains the loud protesting whereas one who actually was born into it would be more likely to have a live and let live approach.

Curious... childern as a whole are generally consider "ours" in one way or another... we as a society are or often feel responsible for childern... maybe its the whole "it takes a village" adage... but it does stand to reason that one would feel that a child is part of his or her society or identity if they are born or obtain a classifying freature of it .... hmm really does not surprise me woth how much better African Americans fair compared to other minorities....

 

[hoichi]

But, Deaf babies aren't yours. We can just educate those parents about our subculture. But, if they don't want ASL, then there is nothing that we can do.

It's little weird to claim Deaf babies are your children.

If your refering to me, im using standard language any minority group does. When we state our people , (any minority group), its not literally using a property defination. As in. People are actually mine. So on
Im not the first to use this language in regards to sign being a birthright for our culture and people...its stretches back a fair ways actually...you can even find it in nad literature. And british Deaf literature too.
Its not ncommon.or rare for minority groups to actually use possesive terms such as this.."our people", "our children", "our language", "our culture"...ive never used nor will i ever use mine,or my..( in regards to babies or children) for obvious reasons...but i have used and do use my people in reference to Deaf, and my language and our language in reference to sign
Even the secular state uses terms such as this as well in a number of ways..
Its not that rare..

 

[dogmom]

Some years ago, my parents and I were having a conversation, in which the topic of bagels came up. I don't recall how we got to it and or the immediate preceding sentence to the following but what I remember <and how this post relates to hoich's above> is that my mom said "they aren't ours anymore, Moishe".
Moishe is my dad's Jewish name.
That is the bagels aren't "ours" - as in the cultural, ethnic definition.
Most people in the U.S. now know what bagels are and you don't have to go to Chicago or N.Y. to get them
But it's an example - one of many that has taken place in my experience - of "peoplehood"
like Deaf are a cultural group...Deaf being the people of the eye in most instances

 

[shel90]

Nope. They only become this so-called "cultural or linguistic minority" by deprivation of both a sense and their natural culture. Their natural culture is the one they are born into within their family.

A tiny group of Deafies salivating over an infant born into the world with a broken sense, hungry to grab them from their families and natural culture to make them like them is creepy. Their lack of or limitation in that sense doesn't automatically make them one of yours anymore than an adult going deaf does. There are ways to prevent their being sucked into a culture that depends on inability to interact with the world at large, just like becoming religious can be staved off by education.

I'm for full access for children born or going deaf. They can decide as they get older if they want to be part of or even like your world. They'll have that choice versus just defaulting because they have no choice.

This is a great thread! Any parent with half a brain reading it is going to do everything they can for their child to access world at large versus handing them over to deaf adherents that use cultish "logic."

It really is bizarre that a "late-deafened" individual shows no signs of ever having actually been that and is one of those being loudest about "culture"... a culture you were never born into and is not really yours... which explains the loud protesting whereas one who actually was born into it would be more likely to have a live and let live approach.

Inability to interact with hearing people? You just demoralized a group of people who have been able to purchase cars, homes, go out in the community, and raise hearing kids with success. You have a audist view.

 

[ambrosia]

Meh, that wasn't an "article". It was an opinion piece, more like a blog. It was full of bias and unsubstantiated opinion. No evidence, no research, just anecdotes, we know this guy, there's a couple of cases. Poo on that.

I saw someone wondering about people who implanted early. I have an ancedotal case for that. I'm a massage therapist, when I was going to school for it my loss was severe in one ear, profound in the other. I did not use an aid in my profound ear, only my severe one. There was a guy in my class that was Deaf and had a CI. At the time (2007) he was maybe 24-26. So now he'd be about 33-35. Anyway, he used an interpreter, but he communicated with us well. Not sure exactly how old he was but he didn't really have a typical deaf accent, he had one, but not the recognizable deaf accent you usually hear so I think he got it fairly young, elementary age maybe. Later on we ended up working at the same place, at this point I had lost more hearing and was relying more heavily on lip reading. He would see/hear me trying to have a conversation with coworkers and he would tell me everyday, EVERY DAY, that I needed to get a CI.

He loved his and highly recommended.

 

[hoichi]

Meh, that wasn't an "article". It was an opinion piece, more like a blog. It was full of bias and unsubstantiated opinion. No evidence, no research, just anecdotes, we know this guy, there's a couple of cases. Poo on that.

I saw someone wondering about people who implanted early. I have an ancedotal case for that. I'm a massage therapist, when I was going to school for it my loss was severe in one ear, profound in the other. I did not use an aid in my profound ear, only my severe one. There was a guy in my class that was Deaf and had a CI. At the time (2007) he was maybe 24-26. So now he'd be about 33-35. Anyway, he used an interpreter, but he communicated with us well. Not sure exactly how old he was but he didn't really have a typical deaf accent, he had one, but not the recognizable deaf accent you usually hear so I think he got it fairly young, elementary age maybe. Later on we ended up working at the same place, at this point I had lost more hearing and was relying more heavily on lip reading. He would see/hear me trying to have a conversation with coworkers and he would tell me everyday, EVERY DAY, that I needed to get a CI.

He loved his and highly recommended.

No one has claimed the article isnt an opinion piece..
Not sure why thats an issue,
Obviously in regards to bias, or opinion oriented web sights... ci companies are biased they after all are a bussiness with a product line to peddle...
As all bussiness exist again obviously to make a profit, im sure the stock holders in ci corps certainly would agree.
We Deaf dont see the drive, push and manipulation towards assimiliation in our best interests, we have always resisted and opposed it, seeing it exactly for what it is..."oralisms final solution"....we do not see it at all in the best interests for our babies implanted against there will..it certainly IS very much in the interests and profit of the ci corps, not us..
My interests is with my people, our future, wich is our babies and our young, not in feeding conpanies profit margins..my interest is in the preservation and advancment of my culture and our language..that are constantly attacked and threatened by ci and rhe professionals peddling it....the assimilation is a travesty and the future will look back on it as such....
Yeah i get it..
Your a new ci adherent..
Meh

 

[ambrosia]

Hiochi man I love you, even though this an area we will never in a million years agree on, but I gotta say.......you're the who said it was "balanced". That was about as far from balanced as you could get.

 

[hoichi]

Hiochi man I love you, even though this an area we will never in a million years agree on, but I gotta say.......you're the who said it was "balanced". That was about as far from balanced as you could get.

Ah.......(blushes).... your too kind ambrosia....thank you girl....
(Lights joint)
Indeed we wont agree in this issue CI....all cool..well i thought the article was balanced....but i know to others it msy seem a bit extreme...its certainly not more.extreme then the push to implant...if anything the stand not to early implant is a more moderate stand then the rush to implant.
Good to see....
As always...

 

[Jane B.]

Ah.......(blushes).... your too kind ambrosia....thank you girl....
(Lights joint)
Indeed we wont agree in this issue CI....all cool..well i thought the article was balanced....but i know to others it msy seem a bit extreme...its certainly not more.extreme then the push to implant...if anything the stand not to early implant is a more moderate stand then the rush to implant.
Good to see....
As always...

Not surprising but we don't seem to agree about what "balanced" means to each of us.

In the context of an article I think of a "balanced" one as giving information about both sides of an issue.

 

[soutthpaw]

Not surprising but we don't seem to agree about what "balanced" means to each of us.

In the context of an article I think of a "balanced" one as giving information about both sides of an issue.

Hoichi's view is about as balanced as that of the Tea Party!

 

[hoichi]

Hoichi's view is about as balanced as that of the Tea Party!

Or.those who peddle ci to scared parents, or those who rush to implant early...
Indeed

 

[soutthpaw]

Or.those who peddle ci to scared parents, or those who rush to implant early...
Indeed

Yes, that would be the other end of the extremist point of view from yours.

 

[hoichi]

Yes, that would be the other end of the extremist point of view from yours.

Every psotion is extreme. Dont lie to yourself, its just different shades of extreme..
My position and i am in no way alone, is for the best interests of the child and our culturr...
You have ci, your an adherent to ci.....you used to teach oral how to speak to our kids...your in no position to attempt to paint yourself a moderet here..(roll eyes)..

 

[soutthpaw]

So being that you never learned ASL, your statement is biased and unsubstantiated. You have no knowledge of life with visual language. You don't seem to be aware of the process of natural language acquisition. Nor the limitations of mapping CI's for infants and young children.
While I'm not saying don't implant your child. I am saying don't use or expect a CI to replace the Natural Language of the Deaf.
3 choices should exist
ASL
ASL+ non-invasive assistive listening devices (hearing aids)
ASL +CI.

Note: ASL would be replaced by the sign language used where the child lives.

CI without sign language should never be an option for infants our young children!

The problem with extremists, yourself included is Extremists label anyone that does not 100% adhere to their POV as an extremist and enemy of their cause, rather ironic don't you think. Please explain how my own post above in response to HOH-Me demonstrates my extremism?

Every psotion is extreme. Dont lie to yourself, its just different shades of extreme..
My position and i am in no way alone, is for the best interests of the child and our culturr...
You have ci, your an adherent to ci.....you used to teach oral how to speak to our kids...your in no position to attempt to paint yourself a moderet here..(roll eyes)..

As you demonstrate again, you fail to understand basic definition of English words. You completely fail to try and understand the issues from any other prospective than your own. You are a dreamer in fantasy land. I guarantee I have taught and convinced more families to use ASL with their Deaf children and infants than you have or ever will. I taught in DHH programs. I have counseled families with Deaf children regarding CI including those referred to me by the surgeon who did my CI. Every parent I talked to walked away with a through understanding of the Natural Language of the Deaf, it's benefits and the process of language acquisition. Also I refused my CI until my Surgeon allows me to educate him in Deaf culture and the importance of ASL!
I taught through Galladuet's Shared Reading Project. Teaching families how to use and read stories to their children in ASL. I have a BA in Deaf Studies. I'm sure that makes me a Audist. WRONG, it makes me well educated and informed on the issues.
What I present to families is a caring and compassionate understanding of their situation. Then present a strong case for ASL while discouraging early CI surgery. I put them in touch with other Deaf who experienced the struggle of growing up without ASL and how a whole new world opened up to then when they learned to sign. But I do this by not making them, the medical community, and CI companies the enemy.

Believe it or not you hurt our cause more than you help it. You attack anyone that does not 100% follow your ramblings. You completely disregard the feelings and struggles of the family and thus drive them away with hate instead of bringing them in with cimpassion where we can actually mold and influence their beliefs and POV.

You know nothing about my kids and my family so shut the Hell up. I do not tolerate attacks or innuendos of my children not who acquired their natural language!
Attack me if it gets your rocks of be leave my family out of it . Fried a few to many brain cells I think. Try responding when you are not high as a kite.

 

[hoichi]

[

The problem with extremists, yourself included is Extremists label anyone that does not 100% adhere to their POV as an extremist and enemy of their cause, rather ironic don't you think. Please explain how my own post above in response to HOH-Me demonstrates my extremism? .

Kinda like how your trying to paint me an extremeist...your post drips with irony....

As you demonstrate again, you fail to understand basic definition of English words. You completely fail to try and understand the issues from any other prospective than your own. You are a dreamer in fantasy land. .

Which words have i failed to understand? Your just rambling ad hominum....try engaging my ideas,not the land you think i inhabat or not.....

I guarantee I have taught and convinced more families to use ASL with their Deaf children and infants than you have or ever will..

How do you know this gaurantee? Can you deminstrate this? Pls do show and demonstrate it...meh

I taught in DHH programs. I have counseled families with Deaf children regarding CI including those referred to me by the surgeon who did my CI. Every parent I talked to walked away with a through understanding of the Natural Language of the Deaf, it's benefits and the process of language acquisition. Also I refused my CI until my Surgeon allows me to educate him in Deaf culture and the importance of ASL! .

Alright....(roll eyes)

I taught through Galladuet's Shared Reading Project. Teaching families how to use and read stories to their children in ASL. I have a BA in Deaf Studies. I'm sure that makes me a Audist. WRONG, it makes me well educated and informed on the issues.
What I present to families is a caring and compassionate understanding of their situation. Then present a strong case for ASL while discouraging early CI surgery. I put them in touch with other Deaf who experienced the struggle of growing up without ASL and how a whole new world opened up to then when they learned to sign. But I do this by not making them, the medical community, and CI companies the enemy.
.

Your resume has never been in dispute...

Believe it or not you hurt our cause more than you help it. You attack anyone that does not 100% follow your ramblings. You completely disregard the feelings and struggles of the family and thus drive them away with hate instead of bringing them in with cimpassion where we can actually mold and influence their beliefs and POV. .

So states you....excuse me if i find your dictates lacking.......(yawn)

You know nothing about my kids and my family so shut the Hell up.

And you know nothing about my kid or my famiy....so why dont you shut the hell up..or is this one of those one way streets with you?....

. I do not tolerate attacks or innuendos of my children not who acquired their natural language! .

I have nver attacked your family...have you attacked mine?
Show where i have attacked your family!!!
Stop the slander and lies southpaw...you should rise above it...

Attack me if it gets your rocks of be leave my family out of it . Fried a few to many brain cells I think. Try responding when you are not high as a kite.

Where have i attacked your family?
You posted your resume...your educated....now demonstrate and show where i have attacked your family!!
Or are you just going to post lies here?
Ill wait..
Meh

 

[soutthpaw]

Every psotion is extreme. Dont lie to yourself, its just different shades of extreme..
My position and i am in no way alone, is for the best interests of the child and our culturr...
You have ci, your an adherent to ci.....you used to teach oral how to speak to our kids...your in no position to attempt to paint yourself a moderet here..(roll eyes)..

You attacked "our kids". Implying your and my kids. I never attacked your kids or family. You create another lie. You also claim I taught in oral program best I can make of your poor English. Would you care to prove this. No? You can't because you fabricate lies!

 

[Reba]

. . . we do not see it at all in the best interests for our babies implanted against there will….

I have no pony in this race but I would like a clarification about the phrase "against their will."

How can something be against the will of a baby? Who knows their wills? Babies can't communicate their wills about CI. There's no way to tell if getting a CI would be something their wills would for or against.

The way I understand it, any kind of surgery is without informed consent by a baby (or minor child) but I wouldn't consider that "against" their will.

Is that what you mean?

 

[hoichi]

You attacked "our kids". Implying your and my kids. I never attacked your kids or family. You create another lie. You also claim I taught in oral program best I can make of your poor English. Would you care to prove this. No? You can't because you fabricate lies!

I never attacked your kids.....spare me...stop the lies...i never even stated you attacked mine...i asked if you where though...are you?
I used our kids in refrence to Deaf..
Are your kids Deaf southpaw?
Are they?
As for my lies...in a post YOU made, many moons ago when we started arguing.. YOU claimed you were a teacher to Deaf in an oral peogramme..at one time.
Sorry if i believed you.
I stand corrected.
Now
Stop the lies...yeah my english is poor...(roll eyes)
We dont correct english grammar in this site...
You have anything of substance to bitch about, or whine or pout about..(hands you some tissues)
Or do you want to engage as a mature adult the issues that matter?

 

[Jane B.]

You attacked "our kids". Implying your and my kids. I never attacked your kids or family. You create another lie. You also claim I taught in oral program best I can make of your poor English. Would you care to prove this. No? You can't because you fabricate lies!

I think that most of the errors in hoichi's posts are keying errors. So many seem to make more sense if you look at the key or keys next to what he hit. There are a few posts of his that don't have that so it makes me think that every now and then he is not high when posting and does not proofread when he is.

 

[hoichi]

I have no pony in this race but I would like a clarification about the phrase "against their will."

How can something be against the will of a baby? Who knows their wills? Babies can't communicate their wills about CI. There's no way to tell if getting a CI would be something their wills would for or against.

The way I understand it, any kind of surgery is without informed consent by a baby (or minor child) but I wouldn't consider that "against" their will.

Is that what you mean?

The very idea of choice means one has to have knowlege of it...if one doesnt...ie a baby..then.it is by definition not of their will.
My position is such that i believe ci should be one of choice..not just done babies have no choice...do they?
Ill rephrase to be more.clear...implanted inbabies without their choice......
If thats better for you...