What about personal rights to choose?

[Audiofuzzy]

I see a lot of arguments against implanting CI, especially in young children, and Ci in general.

.. what irritates me is no one who says "leave to children when they grow up" is addressing the issue of vital early years of speech development from birth to the age of 6 years old in any human child, deaf or hearing.
Once this time passes, is irreversible, the child will NEVER be able to achieve as good results from being implanted later,
also if a hearing child is not exposed to the langauge it will NOT have as good comunication skills as a child who was exposed early and talked a lot to in this time period (birth to 6y.o.)

An example are hearing children who are found raised by wild animals. These children when they are over 6 years old they do NOT learn anymore how to speak, only barely.
Another very simple example how speech developes is, try to learn foreign language when you are older. The older you are the harder it is.

Another thing that makes me wonder - why does some people think whoever chooses CI is "wrong", "acts against deaf culture", " is freaking audist" etc.

What about PERSONAL choice?
Why does it make me Bad Person if I decide to drop deaf culture and join hearing world? Who and Why is going to tell me what to do?? Don't I have any right to choose myself who and where I want to be?

Who is going to make me happy, I or YOU?

Why some people, "hardcore deafies", should shunn me just me because I want to hear?


Fuzzy

 

[Mookie]

I see a lot of arguments against implanting CI, especially in young children, and Ci in general.

.. what irritates me is no one who says "leave to children when they grow up" is addressing the issue of vital early years of speech development from birth to the age of 6 years old in any human child, deaf or hearing.
Once this time passes, is irreversible, the child will NEVER be able to achieve as good results from being implanted later,
also if a hearing child is not exposed to the langauge it will NOT have as good comunication skills as a child who was exposed early and talked a lot to in this time period (birth to 6y.o.)

An example are hearing children who are found raised by wild animals. These children when they are over 6 years old they do NOT learn anymore how to speak, only barely.
Another very simple example how speech developes is, try to learn foreign language when you are older. The older you are the harder it is.

Another thing that makes me wonder - why does some people think whoever chooses CI is "wrong", "acts against deaf culture", " is freaking audist" etc.

What about PERSONAL choice?
Why does it make me Bad Person if I decide to drop deaf culture and join hearing world? Who and Why is going to tell me what to do?? Don't I have any right to choose myself who and where I want to be?

Who is going to make me happy, I or YOU?

Why some people, "hardcore deafies", should shunn me just me because I want to hear?


Fuzzy

Well, I am a Hardcore Deafie who has no problem with CI people who did not sign the CI contract but their folks the Audlists who disapprove ASL methods.

 

[Cheri]

Ok, FYI AudioFuzzy not everyone performs at the same level with a cochlear implant, even children. Look at Rockdrummer for example, his son had no benefit with his CI. In my opinion it just a waste of money, Doctors just want profit, the insurance paid for all this, it doesn't come out of anyone's pocket. In some cases some are able to understand speech and conversation without reading lips and recovering the ability to talk on the telephone, and etc.

I'm not going to stop anyone who consider on getting a CI, There is nothing wrong with my opinion based on how I FEEL. You don't have to agree with me. If you are happy with your choice, your decision, then why does it bother you so much on how I feel?

If you want to drop the Deaf Culture, Go right ahead, but don't expect me to be your friend because you cannot accept yourself as who you are as a person. I like those people out in the world who accept themselves for who they are, is not afraid to love themselves, those who doesn't love themselves cannot love others.

 

[Angel]

No one can changes how others think or feel about children being implanted with CI , some parents prefer to wait until child is a bit older to make the decision with the parents while the other parents makes the decision for their own children themselves, yet I see nothing wrong on both sides...There always an issue where people are going to argue on how others see it, that's just how our world is as today where there are many issues that people argue over, there's nothing that they can do to change others for how they want them to see it no matter how many facts, evidences or proof that may be showing...


I don't see why it should bother you of what others think, you have your own choice on how you want to live your life, whether you choose to be implanted with CI, and leave the deaf world by joining the hearing world only, then you have that right as a human being, but you can not change how others will look at this, it's part of life we deal with everyday, and the only thing we can do is be happy within ourselves and move on.....

 

[Cloggy]

Well, I am a Hardcore Deafie who has no problem with CI people who did not sign the CI contract but their folks the Audlists who disapprove ASL methods.

Why do you assume that pro-CI is Anti-ASL?

 

[Mookie]

Why do you assume that pro-CI is Anti-ASL?

I strongly suggest you to take a field trip to oral school for deaf. Please enlighten me how many hearing parents fluent in ASL?

Nice try....

 

[Cheri]

I strongly suggest you to take a field trip to oral school for deaf. Please enlighten me how many hearing parents fluent in ASL?

Nice try....

You're correct, My dad used to know sign language, but he stopped using it a very long time ago. He knows that I can speak and read lips that's why he dropped using sign language. All my sisters, and my brother know sign language, because my twin sister and I taught them.

 

[R2D2]

Wow that must have been so cool to have a twin sister that is deaf! I assume you are talking of Angel?

Anyway my feeling is that giving a child as many choices as possible is optimal. When they get older they can always turn the CI off, which some have done. In a way that shows that they had a choice for them to exercise.
Other deaf adults on the other hand will choose to continue with their CIs.

Studies show big differences in performance for those implanted before the age of 4. I can pull them up out of Pubmed if people want proof.

It just seems a waste of time to have a CI later in life if you are profoundly deaf and haven't had appropriate sound input. I know someone who did this and they had to turn it off as their brain simply wasn't wired for sound.

It seems unfair that children with smaller hearing losses have access to hearing aids from an early age and few people object to this and yet children with bigger hearing losses cannot have that same access.

 

[Cloggy]

I strongly suggest you to take a field trip to oral school for deaf. Please enlighten me how many hearing parents fluent in ASL?

Nice try....

No trying anything here. You should stop insinuating that, it doesn't help communicating with each other.

I agree, Sign language is not much used by hearing parents at a later stage. ASL is not needed when communication is good using other means.

I reacted because I chose for CI for my daughter, still I use signlanguage to communicate with my daughter when needed, and I make sure she learns as well.
But be aware that the deaf children of hearing parents that use sign daily very quickly are far better, quicker, more fluent that their parents that use speech daily, but not sign, except with their child. It is not easy to keep up with your child. I manage because she is only 3½ years old, but I realise that this will change if she continues to use sign.

I just want to inform you that the choice for CI is not based on the disaproval of signlanguage. It is based on other criteria.

 

[ayala920]

While I won't take either side in this particular debate (I've had too many conflicting personal experiences to be able to really pick a side), I will agree that the "let the child choose" argument is often a bit weak. The job of a parent is to raise their child the best they see fit. Parents make major decisions for their children all the time. As far as I'm concerned, every decision a parent makes has life-changing potential, from the school their children attend to whether they spank them or not. Parents who implant their children aren't necessarily "anti-ASL," they just don't know better.

I read a quote in a book today that said (I'm paraphrasing here): "If a child is getting by just fine in life without sign language, why would their parents think to teach it to them?" It makes perfect sense. I have quite a few friends who were raised orally, and I've asked them why they didn't learn sign. They're responses tended to be, "What's the point? I get by just fine without it."

 

[neecy]

I strongly suggest you to take a field trip to oral school for deaf. Please enlighten me how many hearing parents fluent in ASL?

Not knowing a language doesn't mean you're anti-language!

My grandpa was a Dane. I know none of his first language. Does that make me anti-Danish?

 

[Audiofuzzy]

Cheri:

Ok, FYI AudioFuzzy not everyone performs at the same level with a cochlear implant, even children. Look at Rockdrummer for example, his son had no benefit with his CI. In my opinion it just a waste of money, Doctors just want profit, the insurance paid for all this, it doesn't come out of anyone's pocket. In some cases some are able to understand speech and conversation without reading lips and recovering the ability to talk on the telephone, and etc.

I understand that Cheri, but the fact that not every child is helped and not every child receives full benefits from CI
STILL does not mean that it doesn't matter when the implantation is done.
Still, the best benefits of being implanted are achieved when implanted early.

NO matter what outcome, it is always the earlier the better.

Of course it is hard to predict how much the CI will help, but again, the earlier-the better.
That is one fact in this CI story.

Another fact is, not every hearing loss is equal, not every hearing loss has the same causes. Audiological tests are pretty advanced but it is still not advanced enough to predict the full outcome of implantation - yet still that much is known- the earlier the better.

I hope you understand that when I talk about this subject, I talk in general not personal.
I am not talking about myself, I want to open you all to yet another aspect of being deaf - the right to want to hear, and the right to be able to.

Also, I understand what you say here:

I like those people out in the world who accept themselves for who they are, is not afraid to love themselves, those who doesn't love themselves cannot love others.

but I have to ask you this:
In your opinion, those who accept themselves are those who do not want to be able to hear? do you think I do not "approve" of myself if I want to hear?

Mookie:

Well, I am a Hardcore Deafie who has no problem with CI people who did not sign the CI contract but their folks the Audlists who disapprove ASL methods.

Well at least we cleared that much up

I however strongly urge you to educate yourself on the subject on language development and why it is recommended "the earlier the better".

Angel:

No one can changes how others think or feel about children being implanted with CI , some parents prefer to wait until child is a bit older to make the decision with the parents while the other parents makes the decision for their own children themselves, yet I see nothing wrong on both sides...

I don't see anything wrong either as long as I know the parents are aware how the humans develop the language, and make an informed decision.

I don't see why it should bother you of what others think, you have your own choice on how you want to live your life, whether you choose to be implanted with CI, and leave the deaf world by joining the hearing world only, then you have that right as a human being, but you can not change how others will look at this, it's part of life we deal with everyday, and the only thing we can do is be happy within ourselves and move on.....

No, when I am faced with being rejected by the deaf community because I am interested in hearing or God forbid I plan to implant my infant, it SHOULD BOTHER me very much.
Because if deaf people were FIRST friends I ever had and were important people to me, who accepted me for who I am and who'se opinion matters to me - they should accept and respect my decisions regarding CI as well. If they don't.. how should I feel? betrayed?? abandoned?

How am I supposed to feel knowing that if I DON'T implant myself or my child THEN I will be accepted by deaf community, but I DO implant THEN I will be shunned, disrespected, rejected. How is THAT for freedom of choice?

WHY some people in deaf community can not accept that some deaf people want to hear and/or want their children to hear?
what is it? jealousy? or that any deaf who can not posses better skills feel less worthy?
or is it unconscious fear that eventually all those who can not benefit from any devices will be eventually left on the margin of society? what exactly is it?



Mookie again:

I strongly suggest you to take a field trip to oral school for deaf. Please enlighten me how many hearing parents fluent in ASL?

With all due respect Mookie it is hard to be fluent ASL when your child is little and the parent had no previous expose to deaf culture.

R2D2 - I agree with you.

Ayala920:

Well I went by without knowing any SL and now I see that was mistake. I need it sometimes. Even now thanks to briefly knowing some Canadian deafies my daughter and my husband use some simple sings (just a few) when I have migraine and don't wear HAs.
I think regardless of hearing loss it is good to know SL.

Fuzzy

 

[Angel]

Angel:




No, when I am faced with being rejected by the deaf community because I am interested in hearing or God forbid I plan to implant my infant, it SHOULD BOTHER me very much.
Because if deaf people were FIRST friends I ever had and were important people to me, who accepted me for who I am and who'se opinion matters to me - they should accept and respect my decisions regarding CI as well. If they don't.. how should I feel? betrayed?? abandoned?

Then it should show you that they're weren't even your true friends in the first place, true friends accept whatever decision their friends make etc...

How am I supposed to feel knowing that if I DON'T implant myself or my child THEN I will be accepted by deaf community, but I DO implant THEN I will be shunned, disrespected, rejected. How is THAT for freedom of choice?

I have seen alot of CI users still part of the deaf community, why would it make only you not to feel acceptable?....

I personally see this both ways, some CI users don't want to be part of the deaf community but only the hearing...

WHY some people in deaf community can not accept that some deaf people want to hear and/or want their children to hear?
what is it? jealousy? or that any deaf who can not posses better skills feel less worthy?
or is it unconscious fear that eventually all those who can not benefit from any devices will be eventually left on the margin of society? what exactly is it?

I can not speak for the others here, you will have to ask them these questions yourself....

 

[Audiofuzzy]

Then it should show you that they're weren't even your true friends in the first place, true friends accept whatever decision their friends make etc...

you sly fox :Owned:

Well I must admit you do have a point here, lololol, but..

Well Angel I think when someone feels like he is belonging in the deaf world, and wants to remain in the deaf world and stay true and loyal to deaf ways despite getting CI,
then it is not the same as when one decides to go get CI and then drops off the deaf scene because he thinks he is "better" now.

Hypothetically, I have dillema here - I want to show everybody I am deaf at heart, I respect deaf ways, I want to stay with deaf ways and I want to be accepted by the deaf community AND have CI.

But if I risk getting rejected despite my DEDICATION to deaf ways then I feel like I have no free will.
After all many people here pointed out "you are still deaf if you have HA or CI" (and that is true), and it is not a case when one or two people turn their back on me (yes, not the true friends, obviously) but the MAJORITY of deaf community.
but I don't want to dive into hearing world I just want to have CI hear something and STAY in the deaf world. Why then am I being rejected?

(And mind you, this is only hypothetical scenario I am not talking about myself really I just give an example)

I can not speak for the others here, you will have to ask them these questions yourself....

But I would love to know your opinion on this..

Fuzzy

 

[sr171soars]

...
I have seen alot of CI users still part of the deaf community, why would it make only you not to feel acceptable?....

I personally see this both ways, some CI users don't want to be part of the deaf community but only the hearing...
....

Take me for example. I'm personally the ultimate outsider. I was born HOH had a HA forever and recently got a CI about a year ago. I never was a "part" of the deaf community mostly because in how I was raised and how I saw myself (as hearing who happens to be deaf). I had dealt with being labeled "hearing" and not being accepted by the deaf a long time ago. I can't say I'm rejected now as I had a recent encounter with a deaf group. But there is no mistake that I'm "hearing" (especially as I don't know SL) and not of the metalilty of deaf culture which is quite true. The whole thing is an exercise in absurdity at times for me and I ceased worrying about it a long time ago.

I agree with you that there is the phenomenon that some people who get a CI would gravitate toward the hearing world (why not? [I'm not saying it is right or wrong]) and leave behind the deaf world. I think the question needs to be raised is why some do this. If it because they are hearing "wannabes", then they are highly mistaken to believe they ever will be exactly like the hearing. I know this for a fact myself and have no delusions about this. Maybe it is something within their experiences in the deaf community that tends to force them away...I don't know but it is a question to ask.

I would think some would return to the fold after getting a bit of a reality check. Others, well human nature being what it is, people can delude themselves for a very long time if not forever.

What I don't understand, is how this is being preceived as such a threat to the deaf community. Not all people who get CI forget their roots. Many never had the roots like me. I get the sense that most people would keep those ties and it is just some that break away.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I see nothing wrong that everyone entitled their own opinion why they agree to disagree with anyone.

To me, CI on children is not too late for their speech/hear development. I have seen many CI children between 7 and 10 years old and speak well because they WILLING to learn anything.

I have an interpreter who have 18 years old deaf son. I asked her question why can't she implant his son with CI an earlier? She told me the story that she and her husband thought about have him CI. They searched and visit CI children at kindergarten. It put them off total... 3 of 25 CI children can speak well... She felt that the doctors only see after profit. She met hearing parents of deaf or CI children and compare them. They decided to not implant their son yet until his son is old enough to have his choice. She start to learn sign and become to be certifed interpreter. His son told her that he thank her for not implant him because he don't want CI and happy with HA. I asked her about his speech development. She said that his son speak very good.

A professor of CI in stuggart did not implant his deaf son with CI. Deafies asked him privately why he don't do that when he knows CI is good. Professor admitted that he don't feel want to implant his son yet until his son want to have one... Deafies told him if he think CI is not right for babies/toddlers why can't he say something to hearing parents then? He said that it's his duty to positive CI issues to hearing parents of deaf children.

I think it's waste of money or risk if babies/toddler received CI and then later they decided for not want CI.. ? Doctors only want your money because they know Healthy Insurance pay EVERYTHING 100%. Many HA users speak very good because they WANT to learn... I know few HA who can speak on the phone.

I agree with Cheri's comment.

Cheri's post
If you want to drop the Deaf Culture, Go right ahead, but don't expect me to be your friend because you cannot accept yourself as who you are as a person. I like those people out in the world who accept themselves for who they are, is not afraid to love themselves, those who doesn't love themselves

I collect many CI users's experiences and listen doctor's preach... I was there at hot debate in 1992.

I stand what I believe after saw many CI children... (not babies/toddler)... They doing well BECAUSE they want CI... which good...

 

[Cloggy]

...I have an interpreter who have 18 years old deaf son. I asked her question why can't she implant his son with CI an earlier? She told me the story that she and her husband thought about have him CI. They searched and visit CI children at kindergarten. It put them off total... 3 of 25 CI children can speak well.....

I would have done the same had I witnessed this.
Your example is from 18 years ago. I looked at it 2½ years ago, and the numbers have completely changed. I'll find out what the numbers are in my daughters school.

By the way, looking at the results of CI in a deaf kindergarden is probably not the place. Many go from deaf schools to mainstream schools and deaf schools will loose the view on them. The best way to investigate the quality of CI is to get contact with parents / children that allready have them.

 

[rockdrummer]

What about PERSONAL choice?
Why does it make me Bad Person if I decide to drop deaf culture and join hearing world? Who and Why is going to tell me what to do?? Don't I have any right to choose myself who and where I want to be?

No, when I am faced with being rejected by the deaf community because I am interested in hearing or God forbid I plan to implant my infant, it SHOULD BOTHER me very much. Because if deaf people were FIRST friends I ever had and were important people to me, who accepted me for who I am and who'se opinion matters to me - they should accept and respect my decisions regarding CI as well. If they don't.. how should I feel? betrayed?? abandoned? How am I supposed to feel knowing that if I DON'T implant myself or my child THEN I will be accepted by deaf community, but I DO implant THEN I will be shunned, disrespected, rejected. How is THAT for freedom of choice? WHY some people in deaf community can not accept that some deaf people want to hear and/or want their children to hear? what is it? jealousy? or that any deaf who can not posses better skills feel less worthy?
or is it unconscious fear that eventually all those who can not benefit from any devices will be eventually left on the margin of society? what exactly is it? Fuzzy

Fuzzy, This is just an observation on my part but I don't understand your position here. You say that you want to drop the deaf culture AND you want the folks within that culture to accept you regardless. I may be misunderstanding something here and would defer to you to clearify. Perhaps it's your not wanting to be involved in the deaf culture that breeds the non-acceptance from the people in that culture. Personally, I would take offense if someone treated me that way. Say the tables were turned. I am hearing and my deaf friend that had a CI decided to remove it and now no longer wants to associate with me. How can you not take that personally? If someone abandons you (or you abandon them) for such a reason, I would argue that they were not TRUE friends to begin with.

I do agree with you on the topic of choice. I belive every individual has the right to choose and when dealing with children, it's the parents responsibilty to make certian choices for their children.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I would have done the same had I witnessed this.
Your example is from 18 years ago. I looked at it 2½ years ago, and the numbers have completely changed. I'll find out what the numbers are in my daughters school.

Yes I aware that model of CI is better than old one but you know my opinion about babies/toddler.

I hope you don´t mind me to ask you question.

Did you visit CI and deaf children at kindergarten, school or meet deaf people before you implanted your daughter with CI?

By the way, looking at the results of CI in a deaf kindergarden is probably not the place. Many go from deaf schools to mainstream schools and deaf schools will loose the view on them. The best way to investigate the quality of CI is to get contact with parents / children that allready have them.

I would advise you to meet the parents of HA and CI children because your daughter is deaf. They will accept you if you learn for your daughter.

Would you put your daughter to deaf or hard of hearing school?

We have kindergarten for deaf, CI & HOH children before they goes to school here in Germany.

 

[Cheri]

Fuzzy, This is just an observation on my part but I don't understand your position here. You say that you want to drop the deaf culture AND you want the folks within that culture to accept you regardless. I may be misunderstanding something here and would defer to you to clearify. Perhaps it's your not wanting to be involved in the deaf culture that breeds the non-acceptance from the people in that culture. Personally, I would take offense if someone treated me that way. Say the tables were turned. I am hearing and my deaf friend that had a CI decided to remove it and now no longer wants to associate with me. How can you not take that personally? If someone abandons you (or you abandon them) for such a reason, I would argue that they were not TRUE friends to begin with..

I agree with you, Rockdrummer. because once a person wants to withdrawn out of a community where their social friends go to, and want us to accept that fact that it's their life and choice, but what happened to our special friendship? It's not going to be the same anymore. It's like rejecting the Deaf community and the friendship all together. It would hurt me a great deal and I've been there before. I'm tired of people who want to change themselves and then becomes a stuck-up.