Vote for Creationism or Evolutionism or Both for Schools to Teach?

Vote for Creationism or Evolutionism or Both for Schools to Teach?

  • Vote for Schools to continue teach Evolutionism

    Votes: 10 35.7%
  • Vote for Schools to NOT teach Evolutionism

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Vote for Schools to teach Creationsim (Intelligent Design)

    Votes: 6 21.4%
  • Vote for Schools to NOT teach Creationism (I.D.)

    Votes: 2 7.1%
  • Vote for Schools to teach Both Creationism (Intelligent Design) or Evolutionism

    Votes: 8 28.6%
  • Not so sure ??

    Votes: 2 7.1%

  • Total voters
    28
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web730

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I'm creating this poll to see which you stand for.

Rest assured that it may be a hot issue so please try to respect to their vary of beliefs and rights or wrongs posting here in this forum thread, thanks.

This poll question relates to our schools in America as whether you vote against them to teach ... or vote for them to teach Evolution or Creationism only ... or Both.

It's very important for you to understand whether to vote against or vote for because it does effect our children' beliefs and thinkings for their sakes.

* I made a little mistake on Option #5 .. sorry! I really meant as to Vote for Schools to teach Both Creationism and Evolutionism. (not or) ok

Enjoy ..
 
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web730 said:
I'm creating this poll to see which you stand for.

Rest assured that it may be a hot issue so please try to respect to their vary of beliefs and rights or wrongs posting here in this forum thread, thanks.

This poll question relates to our schools in America as whether you vote against them to teach
... or vote for them to teach evolution or creationism only ... or both.


It's very important for you to understand whether to vote against or vote for because it does effect our children' beliefs and thinkings for their sakes.

Enjoy ..

As I understand the debate and what is being taught, evolution is being taught as FACT when, in FACT, it is NOT and is still a hypothesis. Teach both methods.
 
I voted for schools to teach Creationism or Intelligent Design only.
 
pek1 said:
As I understand the debate and what is being taught, evolution is being taught as FACT when, in FACT, it is NOT and is still a hypothesis. Teach both methods.

That's how I feel, also. I don't really agree that ID should be tought as fact, but neither should evolution. It's all theory, and there should be room enough to present both and allow students to make up their mind about what they believe.
 
I don't think my recommended option is on here.

I think schools should continue to teach evolution, but should also have a reading about any items that evolution does not yet explain. Even if religion were not brought into the picture, any scientific theory must be discussed both in terms of positive and negative.

But here's the other thing I'd do. I would couple the Science class with a unit in Social Studies where students would be given an impartial reading about the debate between evolution, creationism, AND another option people seem to forget, which is theistic evolution (which is NOT the same as Creationism, despite the use of the name "Intelligent Design" to try to make Creationism sound like it is). This would allow students to be exposed to all of these ideas, and I would have the Social Studies teacher encourage students to talk to their parents about these issues.
 
You didn't specify how each is to be taught. I learned about the Christian Creation stories in the context of social studies or philosophy in several different public schools, even beginning in Kindergarten, but learned about evolution in science classes. Since creationism doesn't fit the definition of a science (nor ID) at this time, it really ought not be taught as a science. Who knows that it may be some day because we may be able to prove more and more of each in a scientific manner.

Fortunately for us, scientific facts are not a matter of popular public opinion. If they were, we'd still believe body moles were signs of a witch, we'd not know about how germs transmit disease, we'd regard the disabled and other races as "inferior" and "defective", and we wouldn't be able to test for the RH factor of human blood.
 
In any meaningful sense evolution is a fact, but there are various theories concerning the mechanism of evolution.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

Evolution is a Fact and a Theory
by Laurence Moran
Copyright © 1993-2002

When non-biologists talk about biological evolution they often confuse two different aspects of the definition. On the one hand there is the question of whether or not modern organisms have evolved from older ancestral organisms or whether modern species are continuing to change over time. On the other hand there are questions about the mechanism of the observed changes... how did evolution occur? Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming. However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution. Stephen J. Gould has put this as well as anyone else:

In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."
Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.

- Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981

Gould is stating the prevailing view of the scientific community. In other words, the experts on evolution consider it to be a fact. This is not an idea that originated with Gould as the following quotations indicate:
Let me try to make crystal clear what is established beyond reasonable doubt, and what needs further study, about evolution. Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry. By contrast, the mechanisms that bring evolution about certainly need study and clarification. There are no alternatives to evolution as history that can withstand critical examination. Yet we are constantly learning new and important facts about evolutionary mechanisms.
- Theodosius Dobzhansky "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution", American Biology Teacher vol. 35 (March 1973) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, J. Peter Zetterberg ed., ORYX Press, Phoenix AZ 1983

Also:
It is time for students of the evolutionary process, especially those who have been misquoted and used by the creationists, to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun.
The controversies about evolution lie in the realm of the relative importance of various forces in molding evolution.

- R. C. Lewontin "Evolution/Creation Debate: A Time for Truth" Bioscience 31, 559 (1981) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, op cit.

This concept is also explained in introductory biology books that are used in colleges and universities (and in some of the better high schools). For example, in some of the best such textbooks we find:
Today, nearly all biologists acknowledge that evolution is a fact. The term theory is no longer appropriate except when referring to the various models that attempt to explain how life evolves... it is important to understand that the current questions about how life evolves in no way implies any disagreement over the fact of evolution.
- Neil A. Campbell, Biology 2nd ed., 1990, Benjamin/Cummings, p. 434

Also:
Since Darwin's time, massive additional evidence has accumulated supporting the fact of evolution--that all living organisms present on earth today have arisen from earlier forms in the course of earth's long history. Indeed, all of modern biology is an affirmation of this relatedness of the many species of living things and of their gradual divergence from one another over the course of time. Since the publication of The Origin of Species, the important question, scientifically speaking, about evolution has not been whether it has taken place. That is no longer an issue among the vast majority of modern biologists. Today, the central and still fascinating questions for biologists concern the mechanisms by which evolution occurs.
- Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, Biology 5th ed. 1989, Worth Publishers, p. 972

One of the best introductory books on evolution (as opposed to introductory biology) is that by Douglas J. Futuyma, and he makes the following comment:
A few words need to be said about the "theory of evolution," which most people take to mean the proposition that organisms have evolved from common ancestors. In everyday speech, "theory" often means a hypothesis or even a mere speculation. But in science, "theory" means "a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed." as the Oxford English Dictionary defines it. The theory of evolution is a body of interconnected statements about natural selection and the other processes that are thought to cause evolution, just as the atomic theory of chemistry and the Newtonian theory of mechanics are bodies of statements that describe causes of chemical and physical phenomena. In contrast, the statement that organisms have descended with modifications from common ancestors--the historical reality of evolution--is not a theory. It is a fact, as fully as the fact of the earth's revolution about the sun. Like the heliocentric solar system, evolution began as a hypothesis, and achieved "facthood" as the evidence in its favor became so strong that no knowledgeable and unbiased person could deny its reality. No biologist today would think of submitting a paper entitled "New evidence for evolution;" it simply has not been an issue for a century.
- Douglas J. Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed., 1986, Sinauer Associates, p. 15

There are readers of these newsgroups who reject evolution for religious reasons. In general these readers oppose both the fact of evolution and theories of mechanisms, although some anti-evolutionists have come to realize that there is a difference between the two concepts. That is why we see some leading anti-evolutionists admitting to the fact of "microevolution"--they know that evolution can be demonstrated. These readers will not be convinced of the "facthood" of (macro)evolution by any logical argument and it is a waste of time to make the attempt. The best that we can hope for is that they understand the argument that they oppose. Even this simple hope is rarely fulfilled.
There are some readers who are not anti-evolutionist but still claim that evolution is "only" a theory which can't be proven. This group needs to distinguish between the fact that evolution occurs and the theory of the mechanism of evolution.

We also need to distinguish between facts that are easy to demonstrate and those that are more circumstantial. Examples of evolution that are readily apparent include the fact that modern populations are evolving and the fact that two closely related species share a common ancestor. The evidence that Homo sapiens and chimpanzees share a recent common ancestor falls into this category. There is so much evidence in support of this aspect of primate evolution that it qualifies as a fact by any common definition of the word "fact."

In other cases the available evidence is less strong. For example, the relationships of some of the major phyla are still being worked out. Also, the statement that all organisms have descended from a single common ancestor is strongly supported by the available evidence, and there is no opposing evidence. However, it is not yet appropriate to call this a "fact" since there are reasonable alternatives.

Finally, there is an epistemological argument against evolution as fact. Some readers of these newsgroups point out that nothing in science can ever be "proven" and this includes evolution. According to this argument, the probability that evolution is the correct explanation of life as we know it may approach 99.9999...9% but it will never be 100%. Thus evolution cannot be a fact. This kind of argument might be appropriate in a philosophy class (it is essentially correct) but it won't do in the real world. A "fact," as Stephen J. Gould pointed out (see above), means something that is so highly probable that it would be silly not to accept it. This point has also been made by others who contest the nit-picking epistemologists.

The honest scientist, like the philosopher, will tell you that nothing whatever can be or has been proved with fully 100% certainty, not even that you or I exist, nor anyone except himself, since he might be dreaming the whole thing. Thus there is no sharp line between speculation, hypothesis, theory, principle, and fact, but only a difference along a sliding scale, in the degree of probability of the idea. When we say a thing is a fact, then, we only mean that its probability is an extremely high one: so high that we are not bothered by doubt about it and are ready to act accordingly. Now in this use of the term fact, the only proper one, evolution is a fact. For the evidence in favor of it is as voluminous, diverse, and convincing as in the case of any other well established fact of science concerning the existence of things that cannot be directly seen, such as atoms, neutrons, or solar gravitation ....
So enormous, ramifying, and consistent has the evidence for evolution become that if anyone could now disprove it, I should have my conception of the orderliness of the universe so shaken as to lead me to doubt even my own existence. If you like, then, I will grant you that in an absolute sense evolution is not a fact, or rather, that it is no more a fact than that you are hearing or reading these words.

- H. J. Muller, "One Hundred Years Without Darwin Are Enough" School Science and Mathematics 59, 304-305. (1959) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism op cit.

In any meaningful sense evolution is a fact, but there are various theories concerning the mechanism of evolution.
 
I voted both, because, why single out on things.

Since we are gonna be open minded, then
go ahead and teach evolution and creationism at the same time.

It won't confused the kids, I'll bet the kids will hate evolution more
because they will have to study all the infomation and detail about evolution...

And creationism would be more simple, God made man and woman and heaven and earth in 7 days, and that is it.
 
The*Empress said:
I voted both, because, why single out on things.

Since we are gonna be open minded, then
go ahead and teach evolution and creationism at the same time.

It won't confused the kids, I'll bet the kids will hate evolution more
because they will have to study all the infomation and detail about evolution...

And creationism would be more simple, God made man and woman and heaven and earth in 7 days, and that is it.

But in a school play, how can Deaf children mime the Immaculate Conception?
;)
 
Oceanbreeze said:
That's how I feel, also. I don't really agree that ID should be tought as fact, but neither should evolution. It's all theory, and there should be room enough to present both and allow students to make up their mind about what they believe.

theory (n.) - A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

ID advocates try to play the 'evolution is just a theory' game, but the thing is, theories have to be proven through repeated testing to be theories. Otherwise, they're just hypotheses, guesses if you will. Evolution has many years of repeated testing, all of which has confirmed what we know: Evolution occurs, is real and is predictable.

Intelligent design is not a theory, it is a guess. No one has ever devised an experiment by which to test the validity of the intelligent design hypothesis. As a result of this, ID is not a theory, it is a guess. If someone did devise such an experiment, implementing controls and allowing other people to repeat the experiment, the scientific community would be forced to accept ID as real. Scientists do not see ID as invalid because they're opposed to religion, they see ID as invalid because it has no scientific credibility whatsoever.

pek1 said:
As I understand the debate and what is being taught, evolution is being taught as FACT when, in FACT, it is NOT and is still a hypothesis. Teach both methods.

Evolution is a theory, not a hypothesis. Theories are generally accepted as fact because repeated testing has confirmed them. Would you say gravity is a hypothesis? See above.

Rose Immortal said:
I think schools should continue to teach evolution, but should also have a reading about any items that evolution does not yet explain. Even if religion were not brought into the picture, any scientific theory must be discussed both in terms of positive and negative.

There are no positives and negatives in theory. Theory is not a matter of whether or not a person agrees or disagrees. If they disagree with theory in a hard science like biology, they are wrong. Even in soft sciences, like economics, complete refutation of theory is not noble or wise, it is incorrect unless you can present real evidence and experimentation to the contrary, in which case your experimentation will be factored into updated versions of theory. It is very rare, however, for a theory to actually be completely disproven, as typically new information and technology works to fine-tune existing theory rather than disprove it. Newton did not (at least initially) observe how fast objects fall, only that they did. Pythogoras did not observe the exact ratio of A, B and C in right triangles, but he did observe that there was a relation. Later scientists, with advancing technology and knowledge, were able to fine-tune these theories to a much more precise degree.



My personal opinion isn't listed. I think that science should be kept to science classes and religion should be kept to religion classes. If ID someday becomes a scientific idea, it should be included in science classes. But at this point in time, it is not a scientific idea and should not be included in science classes. Evolution is a scientific theory, and thus including it in biology curricula is simple logic.

I do think, however, that public schools should have religion classes which cover topics such as ID and creationism. Whether or not these classes should be mandatory, however, is contingent on the course structure.
 
Evolution is not a fact. The universe and everything in it was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. All hail His noodly appendages. :bowdown: This is the only doctrine which should be taught in schools, because it is right and everything else is wrong.
 
Levonian said:
Evolution is not a fact. The universe and everything in it was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. All hail His noodly appendages. :bowdown: This is the only doctrine which should be taught in schools, because it is right and everything else is wrong.


But is His noodly appendage Tagliatelle? Or Angel Hair?

Maybe He's Linguini
Or Cannelloni?
Possibly Fusilli,
And likely Rigatoni?

Ah! He's Gemelli!
No! Only Bucatini!

Confusing, you agree?
Maybe He's just Brie.
 
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Levonian said:
Evolution is not a fact. The universe and everything in it was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. All hail His noodly appendages. :bowdown: This is the only doctrine which should be taught in schools, because it is right and everything else is wrong.

I was waiting for you to chime in. I also bemoan the decline in the word population of pirates.
 
Teresh said:
Evolution is a theory, not a hypothesis.

No - that evolution has occured and continues to occur is an accepted scientific fact (read essay in other post). Some specific modes of evolution are still a matter of theory, while some modes of evolution are known fact. Depends on what aspect of evolution you are talking about. Evolution is not just one simple thing - it is countless changes that have occured over time. That these changes occured is accepted as fact - how each change occured and why is where theory comes in.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_stat.htm

http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/lenski.html

Evolution: Fact and Theory
By Richard E. Lenski

Scientific understanding requires both facts and theories that can explain those facts in a coherent manner. Evolution, in this context, is both a fact and a theory. It is an incontrovertible fact that organisms have changed, or evolved, during the history of life on Earth. And biologists have identified and investigated mechanisms that can explain the major patterns of change.

Here are some other references of note for anyone interested in learning more about the biology of evolution:
http://books.nap.edu/html/evolution98/
http://books.nap.edu/html/creationism/
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html
http://phylogeny.arizona.edu/tree/phylogeny.html
 
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/news/2006/ZZ/634_announcing_the_ncse_700_club_2_16_2006.asp

Evolution is a vital, well-supported, unifying principle of the biological sciences, and the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that all living things share a common ancestry. Although there are legitimate debates about the patterns and processes of evolution, there is no serious scientific doubt that evolution occurred or that natural selection is a major mechanism in its occurrence. It is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible for creationist pseudoscience, including but not limited to "intelligent design," to be introduced into the science curricula of our nation's public schools.
 
Very good postings you made... MoarriganTait

anyway..
I am secular humanist and support evolutionism.
 
Teresh said:
There are no positives and negatives in theory. Theory is not a matter of whether or not a person agrees or disagrees. If they disagree with theory in a hard science like biology, they are wrong. Even in soft sciences, like economics, complete refutation of theory is not noble or wise, it is incorrect unless you can present real evidence and experimentation to the contrary, in which case your experimentation will be factored into updated versions of theory. It is very rare, however, for a theory to actually be completely disproven, as typically new information and technology works to fine-tune existing theory rather than disprove it. Newton did not (at least initially) observe how fast objects fall, only that they did. Pythogoras did not observe the exact ratio of A, B and C in right triangles, but he did observe that there was a relation. Later scientists, with advancing technology and knowledge, were able to fine-tune these theories to a much more precise degree.

That was bad word choice on my part...sorry! :(

What I was going for was more like what you were talking about: that the parts the theory does explain effectively, and the parts that don't yet seem to fit right also need to be pointed out. After all, how do you get a scientist to zero in on those and do the fine-tuning or (on occasion) create a new and better theory unless you give them a good awareness of where the clunky spots are?

BTW, I'd like to raise a quick question.

Why do you guys think the debate is always framed as being between random, atheistic evolution on one end, and literalist creationism on the other?

Why is the middle-ground hypothesis--theistic evolution--left out?

I am ALSO curious about why the name of creationism was changed to "Intelligent Design". I have some ideas, but I'd rather see the real reason before I open my mouth.
 
My daughter learned a lot on evolutions, but many things she doesn't agree. When her teacher talked about how earth formed and stuff all it start before anything is gas. My daughter asked, how gas formed itself. She said out from nowhere? My daughter ask, is it bec God spoken. The teacher said no, there is no God amd my daughter said, yes, there is God and no doubt how things were created by Him in many different ways and she ask some more question which teacher couldn't answer. My daughter told the teacher, not to make her feel down or anything, but grace of God. The teacher were impressed. My daughter got an A in the class. Its true, as for me as I see all the argument about everything going on. Its good for student to know how all this life are coming from. Yes, people will argue, but no doubt, God did it all. 7 days as in Book of Genisis is not same number as our 7 days. Our mind, no doubt are finite, even computer trying to prove and not only that, there are some trying to change is to make people fall into false teaching. Our mind no matter how far we go to find proof, is beyond our comprehend. Faith is all we need and yes, God didn't force anyone. So we couldn't and as somewhere in the scriptures says don't waste ur breath arguing, bec its futile thing to do. Egyptians, Greeks,Italians, thru old times mocking the Jews. I would say as of how things creating must point to God, not push Him off.
 
Rose Immortal said:
Why do you guys think the debate is always framed as being between random, atheistic evolution on one end, and literalist creationism on the other?
Why is the middle-ground hypothesis--theistic evolution--left out?

Well - because I frequently point out that I am both a Christian and a person who recognizes evolution as a fact, I don't frame it that way myself. I think it makes Biblical literalists feels as if their arguements are somehow more valid if they make others think only heathens recognize evolution.

Rose Immortal said:
I am ALSO curious about why the name of creationism was changed to "Intelligent Design". I have some ideas, but I'd rather see the real reason before I open my mouth.

It didn't really change names - ID is a new trend to create a pseudoscience of the creation story. Since, as yet, it has been unable to meet established scietific criteria, it isn't a science. It's really become sort of it's own entity.

I, myself, may "believe" that our earth and the processes of evolution are the work of a master creator, belief is not a matter of science, nor is science a matter of faith. It's too bad the ID'ers are such extremists.
 
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