The lowest form of language

Reba said:
Not every job depends on the proper use of English grammar and spelling. If fluency in English was necessary for employment, there would be even more hearing people in the unemployment lines, believe me.

What do you mean someone can be hurt by signing? Do you mean someone might accidentally get poked in the eye by overenthusiastic signing?


Um, hearing employers don't know SEE any more than they know ASL, so how does SEE help someone get a job?


I have nothing against Braille but that's comparing apples and oranges. How does knowing Braille "get you a job?"
Click to expand...

If ASL hurts people with getting a job, then we can say that French, Spanish, Chinese, Auslan, and etc will do the same damage. :roll:
 
imdeafsowhat said:
American Sign Language is the lowest form of language.

Signing Exact English is on the same level as English.

Braille is on the same level as English.


Why?

ASL has no structure, no to be verbs, and it doesn't make sense at all.

SEE is the same as English only in SIGNS.

Braille is the same as English only in DOTS.
Click to expand...

I used to think ASL was broken english after being raised on SEE (oralism didn't work for me), but I can see my old idea was just 110% ignorance as I know your post to be.

Both NSF and Stokoe were originally criticized for his research efforts, yet ultimately critics were silenced by Stokoe's results. He proved that ASL was a language under definitions set by linguists.
Click to expand...

nsf.gov - National Science Foundation (NSF) Discoveries - American Sign Language Spoken Here - US National Science Foundation (NSF)
 
imdeafsowhat said:
...ASL is a language of SIGNS. Not verbal. It has no structure, no grammar and it's not based on spellings, just signs.
Click to expand...
ASL does have structure and grammar; that's why interpreter programs require students to take courses in ASL linguistics that include those areas.

I hate to break it to you, but many spoken languages had in the past, and some continue to have, NO "SPELLINGS". In fact, they have no written forms of their spoken languages at all, and yet they are still languages.


You see, disabled people get offended easily because they're disabled.
Click to expand...
Where on earth do you get these biased stereotypes? Or is it that the disabled people with whom you have contact are frequently offended because you are offensive to them? :hmm:

One more thing, I fingerspell a whole sentence to a full-deaf guy as a joke, he called me a retard. How's that for you?
Click to expand...
Is that the extent of your linguistic research?
 
imdeafsowhat said:
Too many sources out there, this is the reality.

ASL is a tool used by the DEAFs. I express very strong in English, why? Cause there are words that can explain to the last details. ASL is just too violence, I know, I've been in many ASL agruments.

SEE and ASL do not have culture, but they are part of AMERICAN's culture.

Spanish and French don't have "to be verbs" is that what you're saying?

ASL is a language of SIGNS. Not verbal. It has no structure, no grammar and it's not based on spellings, just signs. You see, disabled people get offended easily because they're disabled. One more thing, I fingerspell a whole sentence to a full-deaf guy as a joke, he called me a retard. How's that for you?

But then, everyone's opinion is different, this is just a reality and it's harsh as fuck.
Click to expand...

The thing is, your opinion is clearly ignorant despite being presented the evidence on different occasions. You persist in believing in a certain reality when it is not accurate. That is your right to live to ignorance, but the full reality still is that ASL meets all the language requirements. The problem is that it doesn't meet YOUR requirements for some reason. I don't put too much stock in your creds nor your opinion. You are trying to use an opinion with a weak argument shrouded in insulting language to devalue a fact.

I don't feel you are yet open to the idea that ASL is a valid language so I think we can only gracefully part right here by agreeing to disagree as seeing this is still a discussion board.
 
doofenslim said:
Strength in ASL will not get you far, strength in English will take you far. Have you seen how native ASL speakers write, how do you think native English speakers think when they see what the ASL speaker write?

"ASL has culture" Culture requires many components that the deaf culture does not have. However that is a total different issue at hand.
Click to expand...

What cpomponents would those be?
 
Sure, ASL has structure. Ever seen a discussion of the topic-comment structure and the grammar for various types of questions? Glossed ASL grammar looks horrible only because of you trying to interpret it with English grammar.

Spoken languages can be used to hurt you by people who yell at you. And don't try putting your fingers in the way of the teeth when the other person is speaking. :P

If you think ASL is at a lowest 'level' whatever you mean by level, how come I found it a lot of effort to translate videotaped interviews from ASL to English? I had to rewind to catch all of the information and meaning and translate it from three or four dimensional ASL structure to one dimensional English structure.
 
Redfox - If it was too hard for you to translate, then you need more practice. I can perfectly translate ASL to English with no harm. Yes, it is true that one would get emotionally harmed by verbal abuse. ASL repeats word, like "You going store buy food you?" That is no grammar, but a phrase, easily translated to English, "Are you going to the store to buy some food?". Now guess which has structure and to-be verbs? :O


jillio, I could speak for deafnsmart, but then I could be wrong, anyways, the components of a culture would define by clothes, places, specific people, and food. ASL has none of those because ASL are very similar to all another Sign Language, Deaf Mortgage said so, that it isn't really individual, but unique yes. Just not individual as you all thought it is. English is individual, SEE and Braille are English.

Liza - "Ignorance can be bliss, why aren't you happy?" Hehe. And I refuse to agree that I said or think that ASL isn't a vaild language, but simply the lowest form of language. Spanish do have structure and grammar, it's just dirty. It's like one step from ASL in those "levels". ASL is a language, yes, but Sign Language, the lowest form of language.

Reba - Interpreter programs are bullshit, I've met many who never took classes and claim that they hung out with deaf everyday. The programs are all varied based on the teachers. You make no sense. All spoken language started from writing. You're saying that Shakespeare spoke out every play he thought of? HOW DOES HE KEEP REMEMBERING THE ACTS? I am also disabled, I think I can speak for others that I've studied with. I'm not saying ONLY THE DEAF. I included many, like Autisms, ADHD, LD, Speech Language, Orthopedic, Blind, and Traumatic Brain Injury. I'm saying that I was called a retard because my ASL were too "SEE" and the guy didn't understand me so I fingerspelled out everything, really he was just a jerk and refusing to talk in SEE or others than ASL. What a prick. SEE is practically English when ASL isn't. I know ASL and I say it doesn't make sense, why? Because it doesn't. The levels are of those language with Alphabets, like for English there's 26 Alphabets, in Greek, there's 24. ASL uses English's Alphabets so therefore it's copying English in another form, sign language.

Shel90 - Which is why we don't hire those people who can't speak english unless it's a crappy job like cleaning maids, fast food, and several crappy construction sites. They all don't get pay very well as those English-speaking people. deafnsmart didn't say that ASL and Spanish are similar, it was DEAF MORTGAGE. ASL are simply horrible when it's written, read what I said to Redfox. And it's not discriminating if he's deaf and deaf culture doesn't really exist, but deaf people made a community, therefore it's a community not a culture.

Brydie714 - One size fits none. It does depend on individuals, but hearing levels? I'm profoundly deaf and I know ASL, SEE, PSE, English, Spanish, and French. I guess it truly based on our education. Indeed.

imdeafsowhat - STOP REPEATING YOUR QUOTE. Oh wait, that's me. :P

To All - Don't try and fancy up your post with English grammar. You all kinda failed. Hahaha.
 
imdeafsowhat said:
Redfox - If it was too hard for you to translate, then you need more practice. I can perfectly translate ASL to English with no harm. Yes, it is true that one would get emotionally harmed by verbal abuse. ASL repeats word, like "You going store buy food you?" That is no grammar, but a phrase, easily translated to English, "Are you going to the store to buy some food?". Now guess which has structure and to-be verbs? :O


jillio, I could speak for deafnsmart, but then I could be wrong, anyways, the components of a culture would define by clothes, places, specific people, and food. ASL has none of those because ASL are very similar to all another Sign Language, Deaf Mortgage said so, that it isn't really individual, but unique yes. Just not individual as you all thought it is. English is individual, SEE and Braille are English.

Liza - "Ignorance can be bliss, why aren't you happy?" Hehe. And I refuse to agree that I said or think that ASL isn't a vaild language, but simply the lowest form of language. Spanish do have structure and grammar, it's just dirty. It's like one step from ASL in those "levels". ASL is a language, yes, but Sign Language, the lowest form of language.

Reba - Interpreter programs are bullshit, I've met many who never took classes and claim that they hung out with deaf everyday. The programs are all varied based on the teachers. You make no sense. All spoken language started from writing. You're saying that Shakespeare spoke out every play he thought of? HOW DOES HE KEEP REMEMBERING THE ACTS? I am also disabled, I think I can speak for others that I've studied with. I'm not saying ONLY THE DEAF. I included many, like Autisms, ADHD, LD, Speech Language, Orthopedic, Blind, and Traumatic Brain Injury. I'm saying that I was called a retard because my ASL were too "SEE" and the guy didn't understand me so I fingerspelled out everything, really he was just a jerk and refusing to talk in SEE or others than ASL. What a prick. SEE is practically English when ASL isn't. I know ASL and I say it doesn't make sense, why? Because it doesn't. The levels are of those language with Alphabets, like for English there's 26 Alphabets, in Greek, there's 24. ASL uses English's Alphabets so therefore it's copying English in another form, sign language.

Shel90 - Which is why we don't hire those people who can't speak english unless it's a crappy job like cleaning maids, fast food, and several crappy construction sites. They all don't get pay very well as those English-speaking people. deafnsmart didn't say that ASL and Spanish are similar, it was DEAF MORTGAGE. ASL are simply horrible when it's written, read what I said to Redfox. And it's not discriminating if he's deaf and deaf culture doesn't really exist, but deaf people made a community, therefore it's a community not a culture.

Brydie714 - One size fits none. It does depend on individuals, but hearing levels? I'm profoundly deaf and I know ASL, SEE, PSE, English, Spanish, and French. I guess it truly based on our education. Indeed.

imdeafsowhat - STOP REPEATING YOUR QUOTE. Oh wait, that's me. :P

To All - Don't try and fancy up your post with English grammar. You all kinda failed. Hahaha.
Click to expand...

The most defining element of culture is a shared language which allows for transmission of a shared history, values and norms. You are looking at culture, and ASL, from a very superficial perspective. The anthropologists have already done your work for you. They have identified a Deaf culture in virtually all areas of the world. The linguists have already identified those components of ASL that qualify it as as a full lanugage separate and unconnected to spoken language. Perhaps you would do well to study some of these concepts. It would do wonders for educating you on that which you attempt to speak.

Likewise, you are attempting to assign English attributes to a language which is not English. That is where you are making your gravest error in your comparisons. ASL possesses all of the necessary linguistic structures to be classified as a complete and whole language in and of its own right. Just because the structures are not the same structures used in English does not make them any less valid.

You are also missing the point that when compared to the Rennaisance languages, English, and in particular, American English, is considered to be one of the lowest forms of language, as it is far less evoved.
 
American Sign Language and American English. What the?


Ok Ok, there's no such things as "Amercian English". ASL isn't alone, it is from FSL, BSL, JSL, ESL, and SEE. I was told that SEE was before ASL for some reason because it was much easier to use than ASL.

English is the hardest of all language in the world, Deaf Mortgage said so. And I agree. I have no intention to say ASL is nothing, I'm just implying that ASL is the lowest form of language, because you cannot speak it, write it, nor can you make a book out of it and everyone will buy it.

My comparing is my own. Your is your own. Simply telling one that he is wrong isn't what one would do. One would learn how he looks differently in those subjects and you will apply your own with his, and that makes what? A STRONGER STATEMENT. You're just simply trying to reject an opinion, why? Is it me? hahaha.
 
imdeafsowhat said:
American Sign Language and American English. What the?


Ok Ok, there's no such things as "Amercian English". ASL isn't alone, it is from FSL, BSL, JSL, ESL, and SEE. I was told that SEE was before ASL for some reason because it was much easier to use than ASL.
Well, you are quite wrong there. There most certainly is such a thing as American English. I suggest that you familiarize yourself with some of the more fundamental principles of language and linguistics. Yes, ASL developed from FLS (and BTW, it is FLS and not FSL). But then English as spoken in Britain did not suddenly pop up out of nowhere. It has etymological roots in various languages. The same for American English. SEE is not easier to use than ASL. That is a completely erroneous assumption.

English is the hardest of all language in the world, Deaf Mortgage said so. And I agree. I have no intention to say ASL is nothing, I'm just implying that ASL is the lowest form of language, because you cannot speak it, write it, nor can you make a book out of it and everyone will buy it.

English is the most difficult language in the world to learn. That has absolutely nothing, however, to do with your assumption that ASL is a "lower" form of language. Likewise, a language's developmental level is not dependent upon speech, but upon the complex concepts and information that language is capable of conveying. You have fallen into the oralist's trap of assuming that spoken equates to superior, and linguistically and practically, nothing could be further from the truth.
My comparing is my own. Your is your own. Simply telling one that he is wrong isn't what one would do. One would learn how he looks differently in those subjects and you will apply your own with his, and that makes what? A STRONGER STATEMENT. You're just simply trying to reject an opinion, why? Is it me? hahaha.
Click to expand...

I am rejecting your opinion because it is based on less than adeaquate knowledge and understanding of the concept on which that opinion was formed. It has absolutely nothing to do with you. It has to do with the fact that you are forming an erroneous conclusion as a result of lack of knowledge.
 
iamdeafsowhat said:
If it was too hard for you to translate, then you need more practice. I can perfectly translate ASL to English with no harm. Yes, it is true that one would get emotionally harmed by verbal abuse. ASL repeats word, like "You going store buy food you?" That is no grammar, but a phrase, easily translated to English, "Are you going to the store to buy some food?". Now guess which has structure and to-be verbs?
Click to expand...

31 messages and I still am not sure about what you are trying to say .

If you know English , Spanish and French, you also would understand what structure is. I am going to translate the example you gave from another spoken language word by word in that languages structure to English, tell me if it makes any sense to you: " Store food getting going are you? "

By your example, this language should have no structure , but it has. It just doesnt make any sense in English because its not English. Thats why when you translate from one language to another you don't translate it word by word. If you know both languages good enough to make a translation, you first read it in one language, understand it, and then re-write it in other language . Trying to write and speak the way its used in their native language is one of the first mistakes people make while learning a new language. ASL can not be horrible when written because you can not write it down using English words. You can translate it from ASL to English if you want to use English words.

If you are going to translate signs "you" "going" "store" "buy" "food" to English you still will translate it as "Are you going to the store to buy some food". If you translate it from one language to another exactly word by word then it wouldnt be a correct translation , this applies to ASL - English translations and any other language to English translations as well.

So what does ASL is lowest form of language mean? What does Spanish have a structure and grammar but its dirty and one step above ASL mean? Are you using that "lowest form" for humiliating those languages in your imagination or is this a valid scientific concept? I have never heard of any language being used today called lowest form. This concept exist for computer languages but its another subject. It also might refer a kind of language that was formed tens of thousands of years ago before human invented any language yet as a step stone to languages we have known last 15000 years but what you are saying doesnt make any sense in that concept also.

So when you divide languages into levels in your imagination, do you imagine English as like holy of holiest? Everything you said sounds like you are trying to express your personal feelings (and I guess they are negative in this case) . Otherwise you need to define a lot better, what you are really trying to say by "language having dirty structure" , "lowest form of language" , "Spanish is one level up from ASL", "language harming people" etc... if all these lines are not only said for reflecting your emotions.

-
 
jillio said:
I am rejecting your opinion because it is based on less than adeaquate knowledge and understanding of the concept on which that opinion was formed. It has absolutely nothing to do with you. It has to do with the fact that you are forming an erroneous conclusion as a result of lack of knowledge.
Click to expand...

I researched nothing. I said all this from my own mind, You are a teacher, you reserached probably everything and you are basing a lot of things on facts. I'm basing those on experiences.

Looks like we have different opinions and experiences. I was once a teacher too, I taught ASL and I'll tell you what I told my class.

"ASL is shit."










I tease. What I really said, "ASL is a form of body language where one can see what you're saying, it can generate a story of illustrations in one minds. All you have to do is to draw."

I would not go against ASL, I would never remove ASL from my life, NOR would I remove SEE, PSE, or any other language, why? Because I can use them in many different ways and they give me many different perspective. AND OUCH THOSE RED FONTS, OUCH!!
 
Hermes said:
31 messages and I still am not sure about what you are trying to say .

If you know English , Spanish and French, you also would understand what structure is. I am going to translate the example you gave from another spoken language word by word in that languages structure to English, tell me if it makes any sense to you: " Store food getting going are you? "

By your example, this language should have no structure , but it has. It just doesnt make any sense in English because its not English. Thats why when you translate from one language to another you don't translate it word by word. If you know both languages good enough to make a translation, you first read it in one language, understand it, and then re-write it in other language . Trying to write and speak the way its used in their native language is one of the first mistakes people make while learning a new language. ASL can not be horrible when written because you can not write it down using English words. You can translate it from ASL to English if you want to use English words.

If you are going to translate signs "you" "going" "store" "buy" "food" to English you still will translate it as "Are you going to the store to buy some food". If you translate it from one language to another exactly word by word then it wouldnt be a correct translation , this applies to ASL - English translations and any other language to English translations as well.

So what does ASL is lowest form of language mean? What does Spanish have a structure and grammar but its dirty and one step above ASL mean? Are you using that "lowest form" for humiliating those languages in your imagination or is this a valid scientific concept? I have never heard of any language being used today called lowest form. This concept exist for computer languages but its another subject. It also might refer a kind of language that was formed tens of thousands of years ago before human invented any language yet as a step stone to languages we have known last 15000 years but what you are saying doesnt make any sense in that concept also.

So when you divide languages into levels in your imagination, do you imagine English as like holy of holiest? Everything you said sounds like you are trying to express your personal feelings (and I guess they are negative in this case) . Otherwise you need to define a lot better, what you are really trying to say by "language having dirty structure" , "lowest form of language" , "Spanish is one level up from ASL", "language harming people" etc... if all these lines are not only said for reflecting your emotions.

-
Click to expand...

All I can say is. Well Typed. hahaha. I only wanted a war on a subject. I was getting to bored. All the statements and facts given by everyone is not wrong. It is true and right, but why deny and reject when one is wrong or right? It's simply a perspective and I'm not being emotional, I'm just being dark and stubborn.

I do not know Spanish, French as well as I know ASL and English, I only understand words and I can easily guess because I'm good at problem solving. It just takes time to train oneself to understand such things. If one can understand body language, I'm sure one would understand just about everything.

I only stated ASL to be the lowest form because it never is written, spoken, or played, simply because it has and always will be translated to English. If one wanted to understand what one says in ASL, one would explain it in English so therefore, ASL and English are basically the same, but ASL are much less structured unlike English.

Well Played, Hermes. :)
 
imdeafsowhat said:
English is the hardest of all language in the world, Deaf Mortgage said so. And I agree.
Click to expand...

English is relatively easy to learn compared to some other languages in the world. Are you saying this for making English look like the most complex language in the world?

-
 
imdeafsowhat said:
All I can say is. Well Typed. hahaha. I only wanted a war on a subject. I was getting to bored. All the statements and facts given by everyone is not wrong. It is true and right, but why deny and reject when one is wrong or right? It's simply a perspective and I'm not being emotional, I'm just being dark and stubborn.

I do not know Spanish, French as well as I know ASL and English, I only understand words and I can easily guess because I'm good at problem solving. It just takes time to train oneself to understand such things. If one can understand body language, I'm sure one would understand just about everything.

I only stated ASL to be the lowest form because it never is written, spoken, or played, simply because it has and always will be translated to English. If one wanted to understand what one says in ASL, one would explain it in English so therefore, ASL and English are basically the same, but ASL are much less structured unlike English.

Well Played, Hermes. :)
Click to expand...

Quite untrue. It is only necessary to interpret ASL into English for an English speaker. Two users of ASL do not need interpretation into English. In fact, in that case, it would be English that would need to be interpreted into ASL.

Likewise, ASL is not always interpreted into the English form of spoken language. It can be interpreted into any language on earth, therefore, bypassing English entirely. It can be interpreted directly from the pure manual form of ASL into spoken Spanish, Norwegian, Korean, or any other language without having to utilize an English translation in the process. Just one of the many reasons that linguists have identified ASL as a full and complete language independent of spoken English.
 
imdeafsowhat said:
All I can say is. Well Typed. hahaha. I only wanted a war on a subject. I was getting to bored. All the statements and facts given by everyone is not wrong. It is true and right, but why deny and reject when one is wrong or right? It's simply a perspective and I'm not being emotional, I'm just being dark and stubborn.

Well Played, Hermes. :)
Click to expand...

You are entertaining us , we are entertaining you, its all cool.. I hope you are not bored as much anymore :)

-
 
Back
Top