The Gospels are not Historical

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The Heretic

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Christians are prone to overstatements such as the simple claim that the New Testament is a historical document.

However, this is incorrect, since they are religious works, not historical documents. There is a reason why your public or university library has the Gospels classified as religion, not history. Your public university does not include the Gospels in Ancient History 100 courses.

If the Gospels are historical, then they have to stand up to critical analysis. Once critical analysis is applied, they are anything but reliable history, and i will expand why:

No Gospels or Jesus of Nazareth known in the 1st century
We must distinguish between the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament: the NT epistles of Paul and Revelationa nd Acts do not contain explicit knowledge of the Gospel events or biographical information of Jesus of Nazareth, for they contain high spiritual formula instead. Now, moving on to the Gospels, since they are what most christians suppose to be historical.

Gospels Not written by eyewitnesses
It is painfully clear that the Gospel of Mark was not written an eyewitness, because:
  • the writer is often ignorant about the geography of the region
  • the writer is often ignorant about the customs of the locals
  • Papias , circa 130 explains Mark was not an eye-witness
  • Clement and Tertullian later agree Mark was not an eye-witness.
The Gospel of Matthew and Gospel of Luke both copied large amounts of Gospel of Mark word-for-word, so they can hardly have been eyewitnesses either. They also changed, deleted and added to G.Mark to suit differing purposes and audiences - showing they did not represent historical events, but religious mythology.

Manuscripts of the Gospels are a century or more late

Christians are quick to claim that the historical writings and the date of the events are very close. This is factually incorrect, because of the paucity of positive evidence. all we have instead are:
  • a few WORDS possibly of G.John from early 2nd century
  • most of G.John from c.200
  • several verses of G.Matt from c.200
  • several chapters of synoptics from 3rd century

The earliest substantial manuscripts of the synoptic Gospels date back to two centuries after the alleged events.

Citations of the Gospels are a century or more late
The extrabiblical knowledge of the Gospels or its content does not appear until a full century after the alleged events:
  • The first mention of Gospels is not until perhaps circa 130 with Papias.
  • the first substantial quotes from the Gospels is not until circa 150 with Justin
  • The first numbering of the Four Gospels is not until circa172 with the diaTessaron.
  • the first naming of the Four Gospels is not until circa 185 with Irenaeus
The Gospels became public knowledge in the middle to late 2nd century, which is about a hundred and fifty years after the alleged events. Once about 150 years of oral tradition has passed, history is considered immaterial and vacuous, lost among the legendary accretions.

Early Doubts about the Gospels
During the first appearance of the Gospels there are doubts: Trypho, circa 130 seems to doubt Jesus, and Celsus, circa 175 exposes the Gospels as fiction and based on myth.

Later writers also criticized the Gospels as fiction: Porphyry called the evangelists inventors of history and Julian called Jesus spurious and invented.

No Contemporaries

There are no contemporary references to Jesus of Nazareth or the Gospel events - see this list of contemporaries here

A lack of neutral reports of the events in the Gospels further reduces the Christians' claim of historicity.

Many differences in Gospel manuscripts

Christians are also very eager to argue that there exists a similarity in content among the gospels. However, the manuscripts do not show exact similarity because, in fact they show excessive variation. There are NO TWO substantial manuscripts of the Gospels which are identical.

It is estimated there are 300,000 variations in the NT manuscripts, 30,000 in Gospel of Mark, even 80 or so in the Lord's Prayer.

Furthermore, these changes were often driven by arguments over dogma in the early centuries. Bert Ehrman's classic work The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture shows in detail four examples of how the scriptures were altered by early Christians to argue their points.

To finish, I will list a typical list of modifications of the scriptures. Note that such changes are not just minor things like spelling errors, they show variation of the some of the most fundamental issues of Christian dogma including - the virgin birth, the baptism, the Lord's Prayer, the trinity, even the resurrection.

Examples of Corruptions to the NT
  • Markan appendix - not found in early manuscripts - there are now FOUR differing versions of endings to Mark (the short, plus 3 versions of how it ends)
  • Matt. 6:13 - to this day, there are different versions in various bibles - the early manuscripts show that "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen" is a later addition.
  • Luke 3:22 - early witnesses have : " . . . and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou are my son, this day have I begotten thee"
    later manuscripts have the KJV version : "...Thou art my beloved son; in thee I am well pleased"
  • John 9:35 - The KJV has "...son of god", but the early manuscripts show "..son of man".
  • John's periscope of the Adulteress - not found in the early witnesses - generally agreed to be a later addition.
  • Colossians 1:14 - the phrase "through hs blood" is a later addition.
  • Acts 9:5-6 - Absent from early manuscripts - a later addition.
  • Acts 8:37 - "And Phillip said, if thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" Absent from early manuscripts - a later addition.
  • John 8:59 -"...going through the midst of them, and so passed by"
    Absent from early manuscripts - a later addition.
  • 1 John 5:7 The Trinity formula found here only originated centuries after the events. Bruce Metzger notes : "The passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript except eight, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late rescension of the Latin Vulgate . . . "
The passage is quoted by none of the Greek fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian). Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lutheran Council in 1215.
:smash:
 
That's exactly why the Bible isn't taught in schools. It's a religion and goes against the law. If it was a proven fact, it could be taught in schools. The only way we hear things about this would be in mythology, civilization, empires, etc.
 
in addition

The bible is a terrific record of historical events. it is the cloak of mythology that historians ignore, but not the fundamentalists who take the bible to be inerrant. The cannot distinguish between history and revelation.

Historians are by default empiricists who rely on archaeological evidence instead of mere scriptural authority. They use a different method to arrive at historical truths than the religious believer, dramatically different.

I will add some comments later on exactly what historians do when they are doing history.
 
difference between good history and bad history

A historian begins his work by starting with a question. However, he cannot just pull a question out of thin air, because there are good questions that can lead to good history, and bad questions that always results in something else, often a political ideology which is little more than the propaganda rhetoric of evangelists. Many historians have made errors in their works, and that contains fallacies that have been exposed as illogical or inconsistent reasoning because they area way of falling in error where false reasoning that starts with true evidence generates false conclusions.

The logic of history depends on its structure as a problem solving discipline. For every problem of history there is a question without an answer. A proper historical question must be the following:
  • Operational which means the question must be resolvable in empirical terms.
  • Open-ended The question itself must dictate what kind of facts will serve to solve a problem without determining the solution.
  • Flexible Questions are to be conceived as approximations and open to refinement.
  • Analytical The question must assist the historian to break down his problem to constituent parts.
  • Explicit and precise The question msut spell out its assumptions in full detail.
  • Tested An empirically verifiable question depends on the degree it is verified.

Historians are judged by their skill at verification and demonstration of the truthfulness of their claims. There are many fallacies of factual verification, so that also helps us to nail down several rule of thumbs.
  • Rule of relevance: every fact in history is an answer to a question, and the evidence that is useful or sufficient in answering question X may be false or useless in answering question Y. Ergo historical evidence must be a direct answer to the question posed, not some other question.
  • 2nd rule of thumb is rule of immediacy: besides being relevant, the historian must provide the best evidence, which is most nearly immediate to the event itself. If the best evidence is the event itself, then the next best are the authentic remains of the event, then the direct observation�
  • 3rd RoT is rule of affirmation: evidence must be affirmative, because negative evidence is a contradiction � it means no evidence. Historians must accept uncertainty.
  • 4th RoT is rule of responsibility: the burden of proof always rests on the author, not his critics, readers, graduate students nor the next generation of historians.
  • 5th RoT is the rule of probability: all inferences from empirical evidence are probabilistic. Therefore it is not sufficient to demonstrate that X was possibility the case. The historian must determine the probability of X vis a vis the alternatives. In other words he cannot disprove X by demonstrating the possibility of ~X. therefore the historian is required to demonstrate that ~X was more probable than X.
  • 6th RoT, the rule of relativity: the meaning of any empirical statement depends on the context it belongs. There are no historical statements that floats freely of time and space, they do not apply universally.
  • 7th RoT, the rule of precision: an empirical statement may not be more precise than its evidence warrants. Degrees of precision differ greatly from one piece of evidence to another.

A successful question in history depends on the significance of its evidence. That means the facts have to contain some cash value that answers the question. Ergo, the selection of facts is of the ultimate importance in order to write history. This selection determines the criteria for factual significance.

There are more aspects to a successful history like types of explanation, and forms of argument, but this should be enough for now.
 
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It's built into the Bible, in John 3:16 =)
 
The Bible was written by several people and many verses were cut and paste. You cold see the obvious when reading the Bible - it repeats over with some conflicting ideas.

Many scholars hypothesize that the NT relied on one source and that source was missing. Christians, of course, refuse to accept that hypothesis. They will do anything to smooth out the inherent contradictions in the Bible.

-jeff
 
netrox said:
... it repeats over with some conflicting ideas.
-jeff

Some specific examples please.
 
VamPyroX said:
That's exactly why the Bible isn't taught in schools. It's a religion and goes against the law. If it was a proven fact, it could be taught in schools. The only way we hear things about this would be in mythology, civilization, empires, etc.
The Bible itself is not a religion.

It is not against the law.

Evolution is not a proven "fact" and yet it is taught in schools.
 
Reba said:
The Bible itself is not a religion.
It is not against the law.
Evolution is not a proven "fact" and yet it is taught in schools.

Evolution is a PROVEN FACT. Creation is a myth. It has NO proof. It has NO evidence whatsoever to support Creation. It simply does not exist. It exists only in a religious book, just like many religious books have creation stories - they have NO proof that they happened.

The evolution theory is based on evidence and facts, independent of religious influences. Just because it is a theory does not make it a "guess." We have a color theory but it doesn't mean color doesn't exist! Color, like evolution, is a fact.

So, yes, evolution should be taught in schools. Creationism has no place in public schools.

-jeff
 
VamPyroX said:
That's exactly why the Bible isn't taught in schools. It's a religion and goes against the law. If it was a proven fact, it could be taught in schools. The only way we hear things about this would be in mythology, civilization, empires, etc.
Hmm, I hate to budge, the top scholars didn't support the theory of evolution, yet, school still teaches them as something more "factoids" than "theory". However, in most of the times, science discoveries are catching up with Biblical specifications, even Department of Defense supported the theory of global flooding that took place during Noah's time, scientifically detailed in how it occured and everything. Prophesy were also being fulfilled on both OT and NT in so many years after they were written. It's true that some other materials are fulfilling the prophesies in similiar manners, because it's in the spiritual nature. Hey, scientists even couldn't figure out how they can scientifically prove how foresights work in our human nature, can you? If we wrote something about a theory of how foresights work, then who are to believe? The true is the same with Bible.
 
netrox said:
Evolution is a PROVEN FACT. Creation is a myth. It has NO proof. It has NO evidence whatsoever to support Creation. It simply does not exist. It exists only in a religious book, just like many religious books have creation stories - they have NO proof that they happened.

The evolution theory is based on evidence and facts, independent of religious influences. Just because it is a theory does not make it a "guess." We have a color theory but it doesn't mean color doesn't exist! Color, like evolution, is a fact.

So, yes, evolution should be taught in schools. Creationism has no place in public schools.

-jeff
I'm sorry to say that you're flatly wrong. Evoltion is STILL a theory. Evolution is a theory BASED on fact-finding evidences that they can PRESENT, i.e. bones in a hard stone, and everything that they can "appear" to prove evolution. Department of Energy even indicates that Evolution is STILL a theory:
"Question: Is evolution a FACT or FICTION??
burbank school

Answer 1: Neither. Evolution is a THEORY,
one which is VERY WELL-SUPPORTED BY THE FACTS.
Other theories have not been found to be as well-supported.
prof topper"
Department Of Energy

If Department of Energy can prove that evolution is a FACT, then it will indicate that it is so.
 
Oh yeah, if Bible is against the law, then what is "Freedom of Speech"? Our forefathers sware into meetings with Bible as the main foundation of the United States as "Divine Law", dictating on how the law should be run. They were abolished in late 1950's or 1960's by the government. Since then, everything has been going downhill in the United States, i.e. criminal records, violence, morality depravity and everything. I'm sure if George Washington were resurrected, he will be more than displeased with the way we handle things in the United States.
 
LinuxGold said:
I'm sorry to say that you're flatly wrong. Evoltion is STILL a theory. Evolution is a theory BASED on fact-finding evidences that they can PRESENT, i.e. bones in a hard stone, and everything that they can "appear" to prove evolution.

He is wrong with his use of terms.

"Evolution is a Fact and a Theory"

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

Hmm, I hate to budge, the top scholars didn't support the theory of evolution, yet, school still teaches them as something more "factoids" than "theory". However, in most of the times, science discoveries are catching up with Biblical specifications, even Department of Defense supported the theory of global flooding that took place during Noah's time, scientifically detailed in how it occured and everything.

No, they don't dispute evolution. It's a myth that creationists like you to believe. They are arguing over mechanisms of evolution, not over evolution itself. There is no evidence of GLOBAL flooding yet. Many cultures have "flood" myths but we cannot find evidence to support their myths. Show me evidence that a global flooding existed. Even if it exists, it says nothing about the Bible's authenicity since Gilgamesh mentioned the flood BEFORE the Bible was written.

Creationists have NO evidence to support their myth.

My father was a Christian minister and I knew about the Bible well.

-jeff
 
It's an endless debate and it's moot. The only thing that we know for sure, and FOR A FACT that we didn't live back in the old days to verify such. =)
 
Oh, by the way I also knew Bible well, attended NorthStar Bible Institution for 2 years and lived by Bible for most of my life since I was around 16 years old.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Got to live by that verse ;)
 
LinuxGold said:
Oh, by the way I also knew Bible well, attended NorthStar Bible Institution for 2 years and lived by Bible for most of my life since I was around 16 years old.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Got to live by that verse ;)

Amen!!! Listen, let Heretic alone let him speak out what he want...as long his talking dont hurt our faith in Lord...but I do adore Heretic's INTELLIGENT in how he speak of his own philosophical view...
 
BigSpike said:
Amen!!! Listen, let Heretic alone let him speak out what he want...as long his talking dont hurt our faith in Lord...but I do adore Heretic's INTELLIGENT in how he speak of his own philosophical view...
Romans 1:22 professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Gotta let 'em be fools.

1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

God will take care of that for us ;)
 
LinuxGold said:
Romans 1:22 professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Gotta let 'em be fools.

1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

God will take care of that for us ;)


Bingo! Second to this and Amen!
 
LinuxGold said:
Oh, by the way I also knew Bible well, attended NorthStar Bible Institution for 2 years and lived by Bible for most of my life since I was around 16 years old.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Got to live by that verse ;)

Where's this NorthStar Bible Institution located at? Is it of a denomination or none whatsoever? Nice to know there are such ppl. like yourself who lives by the Bible...(heh, been around the Bible since I was born... :giggle: , but I do know where you're coming from though ;) ) As for myself, it's been over 20 years and still going strong....

Mark 28:30-31 'And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your mind, and with all your strength. The second is this, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.' --what Christ answered in referring to what is the most important commandment--
 
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