The Case For Obamacare

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Do you mean to suggest that health care is not a privilege, then? If it isn't a privilege, would that suggest that health care is of greater importance than driving?



But don't health insurers do everything they can to quibble with medical offices over costs and charges, and deny claims they feel are extravagant, such as drug-seeking? (My sister used to work for a health insurance company -- it sounds like they contest nearly every claim unless an employer pays extra for the extra-special package, like Microsoft does. (Microsoft's employees have virtually every claim paid for, no questions asked.)) My work insurance definitely has mechanisms in place to detect and prevent this sort of activity. I imagine it wouldn't be different under the ACA, since these too are private health insurers who aim to limit their costs and reduce waste. The bulk of this insurance will be handled by private insurers, if I understand correctly.

I'm really curious what the experience in Massachusetts has been of the similar program put in place by Governor Romney. It's been in operation for a number of years now, I'd like to see how their costs have fared in the long run. Surely that would give a good idea of what the rest of the country can expect.

No, because driving is a privilege one can simply decide not to drive and avoid paying for insurance. No such luck with the Obamacare mandate.

By many accounts Romneycare has been a disaster. That being said Romney never felt the plan should be implemented on a National level.
 
Not having health insurance and inability to pay medical bill held us to liable for increase the medical cost.
That's not what liability insurance means.

Liability means being responsible for the expenses of others in an accident. That is, liability auto insurance pays for the damages and injuries of the other person that was hit.
 
That's not what liability insurance means.

Liability means being responsible for the expenses of others in an accident. That is, liability auto insurance pays for the damages and injuries of the other person that was hit.

For medical care, it is different way for liability.

If patients don't have insurance and inability to pay medical bill? Who will take money from? you and me because we have to pay higher medical cost and the insurance premiums have went up too.
 
I found this discussion on Massachusetts' health care law, which seems to be well-rounded and well-informed. Does anyone see anything in this document that is wrong, or anything they'd like to comment on?

FactCheck.org : ‘RomneyCare’ Facts and Falsehoods

(Edit: Here's another link from Romney supporters: http://mittromneycentral.com/resources/romneycare/ )

My feeling at this point, tentatively, is that the supposed 'negative' effects of the Affordable Care Act are probably overblown. If the document linked-to is correct, it seems we can expect, nationally, some rising costs, followed by a moderation of costs, especially for individual policies, as the insurance companies gain a better understanding of how the new law affects their business. Currently, the insurance companies are less certain, so they raise prices to compensate for that uncertainty. Once they get a couple years of data, the Massachusetts' experience suggests that they'll moderate prices.

The individual mandate itself doesn't particularly bother me, just like an auto-insurance mandate doesn't bother me.

The tax penalty gives me pause, but then I wonder how else would an individual mandate be enforced? The auto-insurance mandate also has a penalty, that of not being issued a driver license.

The argument that the Supreme Court decision allows congress to penalize any behavior with a tax also gives me pause. But repealing the ACA would not solve this particular problem, since the Supreme Court decision would still stand regarding that particular 'power of Congress.'

And besides, since when has Congress felt restrained in their ability to tax and prescribe regulations? I'm not sure the Supreme Court fundamentally changed the nature of Congress' power in this case.

I'm willing to hear what others have to say about the whole thing though.
 
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For medical care, it is different way for liability.
That's why I said that you can't apply the same reasoning for medical insurance and auto insurance. The requirement for auto insurance is for liability insurance. Medical insurance is not a liability insurance. They can't be compared.

If patients don't have insurance and inability to pay medical bill? Who will take money from? you and me because we have to pay higher medical cost and the insurance premiums have went up too.
That has nothing to do with my statement about auto liability insurance.
 
No, because driving is a privilege one can simply decide not to drive and avoid paying for insurance. No such luck with the Obamacare mandate.

I have to admit this is not really a sticking point for me. I recognize that other people may be bothered by this distinction, though.

By many accounts Romneycare has been a disaster.

How, specifically, has it been a 'disaster'? Please review the link I posted that seems to be a non-biased review of the Romneycare experience. Do you have information that they do not? I'd sincerely would like to review it myself.

That being said Romney never felt the plan should be implemented on a National level.

Of course he would say that. He is running for President and needs to somehow disavow Romneycare. But did he, and does he, really believe that? Incidentally, I don't believe that Romney will repeal the ACA. I think he is saying that to try to get elected. I don't think he will follow through with it.
 
That's why I said that you can't apply the same reasoning for medical insurance and auto insurance. The requirement for auto insurance is for liability insurance. Medical insurance is not a liability insurance. They can't be compared.

The reason auto-insurance was mentioned was to show that there are 'individual mandates' for insurance already, albeit for a different type of insurance. It suggests that perhaps an 'individual mandate' isn't as politically 'bad' as some people think.

Beyond that, you are right, liability and health insurance are two different types of insurance. But it is useful to note that individual mandates have been used by governments before without controversy.
 
How, specifically, has it been a 'disaster'? Please review the link I posted that seems to be a non-biased review of the Romneycare experience. Do you have information that they do not? I'd sincerely would like to review it myself.

I go mainly by the experiences reported by my friends in the area....This is something I have posted before

5 painful health-care lessons from Massachusetts

Lesson 1: The Massachusetts plan does not control costs.

When Massachusetts launched its reform program in 2006, it already had the highest medical costs in the nation. Today, the burden is still rising far faster than wages or inflation, from those already lofty levels. A report from that state attorney general in March -- remember, this is a Democratic administration -- asked rhetorically "Can we expect the existing health-care market in Massachusetts to successfully contain health-care costs?" The report concluded, "To date, the answer is an unequivocal 'no.'"

Costs are rising relentlessly for both families and for the state government. The median annual premium for family plans jumped 10% from 2007 to 2009 to $14,300 -- again, that's a substantial rise on top of an already enormous number. For small businesses, the increase was 12%. In 2006, the state spent around $1 billion on Medicaid, subsidies for medium-to-lower earners, and other health-care programs. Today, the figure is $1.75 billion. The federal government absorbed half of the increase.

Hence reform's proponents boast that expenses have risen only $354 million or around 6% a year. But the real increase is double that, including the federal share. And it's highly possible that given the current budget pressures, the U.S. will reduce the contribution that has encouraged the state to spend so lavishly.

Lesson 2: Community rating, guaranteed issue and mandated benefits swell costs.

How did costs in Massachusetts get so big to begin with? A major reason is the adoption of guaranteed issue and community rating in the mid-1990s. The new federal bill would expand those rules to the entire nation. Under guaranteed issue, insurers must accept all enrollees regardless of their medical condition; under community rating, they must charge all customers similar premiums, even if their costs are far different. The result is that prices rise steeply for young, healthy customers, who must pay far more than their actual costs. It also give them a strong incentive to drop insurance; then they can "game the system" by signing up any time they need surgery or get diabetes.

Hence the pool of insured people gets older and sicker as the healthy drop out. That's what happened in Massachusetts, and it contributed to soaring premiums. The 2006 reform plan was supposed to solve the problem by requiring that everyone buy coverage or pay a fine of around $1,000. It worked, but only in part: Of the 600,000 uninsured in 2005, around 450,000 are now covered. But a large share of 150,000 who still lack coverage are young residents who choose to pay the fine instead of high premiums. Insurers are also getting socked by people who sign up for insurance to get expensive care mandated under state law, including hospitalization for childbirth or hip replacements, and then depart once the procedure is completed.

In the federal bill, the fines for going uninsured are even lower than in Massachusetts -- and anyone who can't find an inexpensive plan is exempted from all penalties. Hence the "adverse selection" problem could prove far worse.

Lesson 3: Huge subsidies for low-to-medium earners could prove extremely expensive.

One of the most fascinating features of the Massachusetts plan is that it introduced a system of subsidized policies, sold through an insurance "exchange" that's extremely similar to the one in the new federal plan. Under Commonwealth Care, the state subsidizes plans -- offered by private carriers -- for residents who earn up to $66,150 who are not covered by employers. The aid is extremely generous. At $44,000, families pay around $1,000 a year in premiums. At the $66,150 maximum, they contribute around $3,000.

The problem is that the actual annual cost of these plans is around $10,000, so the subsides are enormous -- that's 90% for families earning $44,000. And while the costs keep going up, the share paid by the enrollee barely budges. Says Michael Tanner, an economist at the conservative Cato Institute: "It's a situation where the entire escalation in costs is paid by the government, not the people receiving the care."


The federal plan also subsidizes care provided through state-run exchanges. The patients' contributions are bigger than in the Mass. plan: A family earning $66,000 would pay $6,300 a year. But the federal plan offers subsidies far higher along the income scale, aiding families of four making up to $88,200. And surprisingly, the federal plans would probably prove a lot more costly than the ones in Massachusetts, where the state prides itself on restraining what they pay by squeezing providers, who then shift the added costs to private customers.

The big problem arises if far more people sign up for these exchange-offered plans than anticipated. That's been the case in Massachusetts. And as we'll see in a moment, it could still get a lot worse there. A potential disaster threatens the federal plan if employers staring dropping coverage, since a flood of newcomers would rush into the state-funded pools.

Lesson 4: The exchanges reward people for working less and earning less.

Data is lacking on how damaging these perverse incentives are in practice. But it's clear in Massachusetts that low-to-medium earning families often suffer financially if they get a raise, work overtime, move to a higher paying job -- or if a spouse rejoins the workforce. For example, a family earning $33,000 pays no premium at all under Commonwealth Care. But if their pay goes to $46,000, they're obligated to contribute about $2,400. That's an effective tax rate of 18.5% on that $13,000 raise. A pay increase of $44,000 to $46,000 is mostly erased by higher premiums alone.

The federal bill is plagued by the same weakness. For example, a $55,000 earner contributes $4,400 a year towards insurance. At $65,000, the bill is $6300; so the family is paying a "tax" of $1,900 or 19% on that $10,000 raise. After payroll taxes, those Americans would face a marginal rate of around 35%, a number that's heretofore been the territory strictly for high-earners.

Lesson 5: The generous plans and added mandates give employers an incentive to drop health insurance.

In charting the future of health-care costs, the biggest danger by far is that companies will drop their coverage. It's also the one that's the most difficult to handicap, both for Massachusetts and the entire nation. The problem is simple: If employers stop paying for health care, employees will flood into the government-subsidized programs, enormously raising the cost to already fragile budgets.

Surprisingly, health reform in Massachusetts has actually increased the number of workers covered by employers. Over 100,000 more employees are covered by corporate plans today than when the program debuted in 2006. The main reason is that the plan imposed a $1,000 fine on employees who refused their employers' plans. Then, families were paying around $3,600 a year towards their company policies. Many decided that, when faced with a fine, the better choice was paying the extra $2,600 for full coverage. The plan was shrewdly calibrated by the administration of then-governor Mitt Romney to tilt the market towards company-provided care.

The Massachusetts plan also bans any employee from getting coverage from Commonwealth Care if his or her company offers coverage. Hence it would appear that corporate coverage is solidly entrenched. But that's by no means certain, either in Massachusetts or under the Obama plan. The reason is the fast escalation in costs, for both companies and employees. From 2007 to 2009, the employee contribution for family policies rose a steep 17%, or $624 a year, to $4,200.

Employees can only move into Commonwealth Care if their employers drop their plans. The danger is that the incentives are tilting in that direction as the costs of coverage for employer, and the price of premiums to employees, keep climbing. The point is rapidly approaching where both will pocket big savings if employers drop their plans and workers buy their policies through the heavily subsidized exchanges.

In Massachusetts, the state government is pushing toward that tilt point by adding heavy mandates to a list of more than 40 already on the books. In 2009, it required insurers to cover prescription drugs. An expensive autism mandate is now being debated in the state legislature. The list of mandates under the federal plan is bound to mirror the ones in Massachusetts, and once again, the added expense severely weakens companies' incentive for providing coverage.

Cracks are already starting to appear. Part-time workers can get coverage under Commonwealth Care for a fraction of what they'd pay as full-timers. So they "game the system" by working ten or fifteen hours a week for two or three companies. Or they find that it pays to switch from full- to part-time work. PHI, an organization that represents home health-care workers, states that one-fourth of the home care agencies in Massachusetts are reducing workers' hours so they're eligible for state-subsidized care.

The federal plan will encounter the same problem -- perhaps a more acute one since its penalties are lower and its subsidies go much higher on the income scale.

Starting in 2017, the states will have the option of allowing companies that drop their plans to shift workers into the subsidized, state-run exchanges. That choice doesn't exist now in Massachusetts. It's not that employers are likely to dump their plans en masse. What's far more probable is a progressive erosion that relentlessly and systematically raises government spending.

The incentives are there, both in the federal plan, and its prototype in the Bay State. And when the incentives are that big -- and when subsidies inevitably get bigger, not smaller -- no amount of regulatory tinkering can stop America's employers and employees from taking the government's money, and saving their own.

5 painful health-care lessons from Massachusetts - Jun. 15, 2010


Of course he would say that. He is running for President and needs to somehow disavow Romneycare. But did he, and does he, really believe that? Incidentally, I don't believe that Romney will repeal the ACA. I think he is saying that to try to get elected. I don't think he will follow through with it.

No, it is a fundamental belief that states should be responsible for health care rather than the feds.
 
I have to admit this is not really a sticking point for me. I recognize that other people may be bothered by this distinction, though.



How, specifically, has it been a 'disaster'? Please review the link I posted that seems to be a non-biased review of the Romneycare experience. Do you have information that they do not? I'd sincerely would like to review it myself.



Of course he would say that. He is running for President and needs to somehow disavow Romneycare. But did he, and does he, really believe that? Incidentally, I don't believe that Romney will repeal the ACA. I think he is saying that to try to get elected. I don't think he will follow through with it.

Yup, Romney probably to simplify the ACA to throw some complication policies out.
 
So you think it is okay to penalize perfectly healthy people who choose not have have or buy insurance? How is that fair?

I do not like making health insurance mandatory , the government should stay out of our life !
 
IHow, specifically, has it been a 'disaster'? Please review the link I posted that seems to be a non-biased review of the Romneycare experience. Do you have information that they do not? I'd sincerely would like to review it myself.

Exhibit A.... (Hates romneycare)

I do not like making health insurance mandatory , the government should stay out of our life !
 
No, it is a fundamental belief that states should be responsible for health care rather than the feds.

that's precisely what Obamacare is.
 
The difference is, the auto insurance that's required is for liability. Health insurance isn't a liability insurance.

health insurance is definitely a liability insurance.... it's for America's well-being and national security. if America is sicker, fatter and dying.... then there's no future for America.
 
health insurance is definitely a liability insurance.... it's for America's well-being and national security. if America is sicker, fatter and dying.... then there's no future for America.
No, health insurance is NOT liability insurance.

Liability insurance:

* insurance covering the insured against losses arising from injury or damage to another person or property (dictionary.com)

* Any type of insurance policy that protects an individual or business from the risk that they may be sued and held legally liable for something such as malpractice, injury or negligence. (Liability Insurance Definition | Investopedia)

In order for health insurance to be a liability insurance, one person would have to be legally responsible for the sickness or injury of another person. That would be like saying that I need liability insurance to protect me from being sued by fat people who blame me for their condition. That makes no sense at all.

It would also mean that my own insurance wouldn't cover my own medical costs. Liability insurance doesn't cover the expenses of the person carrying the insurance; it covers the expenses of the person that was harmed by the policy holder.
 
Exhibit A.... (Hates romneycare)

I live in Massachusetts and hate romneycare ! MassHealth no longer pay for fillings or false teeth , they'll pull your tooth out for you if you have a cavity.
I see more people with missing teeth more now that we have romneycare.
 
No, health insurance is NOT liability insurance.

Liability insurance:

* insurance covering the insured against losses arising from injury or damage to another person or property (dictionary.com)

* Any type of insurance policy that protects an individual or business from the risk that they may be sued and held legally liable for something such as malpractice, injury or negligence. (Liability Insurance Definition | Investopedia)

In order for health insurance to be a liability insurance, one person would have to be legally responsible for the sickness or injury of another person. That would be like saying that I need liability insurance to protect me from being sued by fat people who blame me for their condition. That makes no sense at all.

It would also mean that my own insurance wouldn't cover my own medical costs. Liability insurance doesn't cover the expenses of the person carrying the insurance; it covers the expenses of the person that was harmed by the policy holder.

Which is why we, at a minimum must have liability insurance for our vehicle. But liability health insurance? I'm sure OBH will probably require that next.
 
No, health insurance is NOT liability insurance.

Liability insurance:

* insurance covering the insured against losses arising from injury or damage to another person or property (dictionary.com)

* Any type of insurance policy that protects an individual or business from the risk that they may be sued and held legally liable for something such as malpractice, injury or negligence. (Liability Insurance Definition | Investopedia)

In order for health insurance to be a liability insurance, one person would have to be legally responsible for the sickness or injury of another person. That would be like saying that I need liability insurance to protect me from being sued by fat people who blame me for their condition. That makes no sense at all.

It would also mean that my own insurance wouldn't cover my own medical costs. Liability insurance doesn't cover the expenses of the person carrying the insurance; it covers the expenses of the person that was harmed by the policy holder.

It looks like some people, especially you have difficult to understand and already beyond our explanation to make you understand.

Now, I disagree with you about health insurance isn't liability.
 
health insurance is definitely a liability insurance.... it's for America's well-being and national security. if America is sicker, fatter and dying.... then there's no future for America.

Yup, that what I tried to explain.

I learned from my mother and she is nursing director at hospital.
 
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