Teen gets 20 years for gang rape of woman, son

I agree, I believe more should be done for these children even to the ones that are innocents...

It seems like we want to ignore the problems until they get so out of hand that there is nothing we can do. If we paid more attention to the problems these kids are encountering when they are young, and did something about it then, we would see changes. This is true of all situations regarding kids, it seems. Ignore the problems they have in school, ignore the problems of poverty, ignore the problems of not having after school programs or mentoring programs, and then, when they have been ignored so long that severe problems start to show, lock them up.

Unfortunately, I see the same thing in deaf education. Instead of addressing the problems in preschol and elementary school, we wait until they are older, and then complain about the problems we create.

Adults with problems don't just magically appear on the planet. They grow from children with problems. Address the problems when they are chidlren.
 
I’m glad these sick freaks will be experiencing what they inflicted upon that poor woman and her son every night for the next 20 years of their lives. Right now they are 14, 16, 17, and 18. In America, juvenile detention is reserved for those under the age of 18, which means that the 14 year old would only serve 4 years for the horrendous crime he committed, and the others would serve even less. They deserve every minute of the 20 year sentence in an adult facility.
 
What I meant by blaming the media is the fact that you have the ex-gang members who've made it big, such as rappers like 50-cent and Tupac who are known to have been members in gangs before they hit the recording studio. In their music, and music videos they glamorize the thug life - pushing it to the would be members flashing the cash and bling around. These same rappers who use the lyrics such as "get yo fat drunk ass off my runway ho, them bitches they come they go, but there's one thing I do know, don't touch what you can't grab" try to justify it by saying these 'ho's' are the kind that sit at home all day and don't do anything for there man. But they get all in a tizzy if a white man that wears cowboy boots uses the term as well. Kinf of like the pot calling the kettle black if you ask me.

As far as clothing goes, I would be alarmed just because your 10 year old kid like his Chicago Bulls shirt, most kids that age want to be professional athletes when they grow up, but I would be more concerned with their behavior. Are they imitating the rappers they see on TV? Using foul language and using gang-affiliated hand shapes? Do they glamorize the thug life they see on TV? If they become reclusive when you prod them about it, there's a good chance they want to take part in this thug life. So you see for some kids who may not necessarily live in a thug hood, it often starts with the exposure to too much TV. I would also be leery of any 10 year old thats running the streets at night with 17 and 18 year olds that for sure dont fit the bill for 'mentor'.

I watched a MS-13 documentary on National Geographic once, in some gangs even talking to the media can get them killed by their own gang, and most MS-13 members have murdered someone by the time they are 15. One who was interviewed from prison said he had his first murder at age 10!

As I suspect this whole group of teenager that 'gang' raped this mother and her son and forced them to perfrorm sexual acts together, are not a real gang but rather a loose grouping of the boys who have sick twisted minds. A true gang would have not even allowed this to happen, too much media attention for one, and two - a child was harmed.

I also agree that it should be the parents responsibility to make sure these kids dont get involved in the first place, but alot of gangsters come from very poor backgrounds, in single parent homes with multiple siblings and the parent is often working 2 full time jobs just to provide the basics. If gang prevention starts with the parents, then why not reach out to the parents to get them the help they need to keep their kids out of trouble? Most parents who have had at least one child get into the thug life probably wished they had the help sooner.
 
And that type of incarceration also leads tot he conditions that make the prisoners worse when we release them than they were when they went in. Segregation like that over a long period of time has been shown to cause mental illness, or to worsen conditions of mental illness that were there when the prisoner was incarcerated. I would suggest that you read the book about Alvin Ford, I believe it is called Competent to Die: The Case of Alvin Ford. It is a true story regarding how the conditions of incarceration exacerabated a mental illness, and how the illness went untreated until it resulted in his death.

I am not able to find "Competent to Die: The Case of Alvin Ford" at Amazon.con nor at my county libraries online. I did googled "Alvin Ford" and found this link: ALVIN FORD

Ford spent his first six years in prison under normal health conditions. In late 1981, at the end of the appeals process and within hours of his execution, Ford's mental condition deteriorated dramatically. For the next nine years he moved in and out of schizophrenia, which finally developed into sustained psychosis by the time his second death warrant was signed in 1984.

This part tells me that Ford was normal until close to the date of his execution which seemed to pushed him over the edge. It doesn't sound like that the isolation from incarceration caused his mental illness. It seems to me it is the thought of his upcoming death that caused his mental illness.

I am not 100% certain about executing any mentally-ill inmate. I have a friend that has a history of mental illness. He told me he still knows the right from wrong even when he is in mid of his mental breakdown. It seems that whatever is inhibiting him is gone when he is in a mental breakdown.

At the PBS series on Alcatratz, a former prisoner (an old man) visited the Alcratz and said that he went straight after his imprisonment as he said he is doing everything to make sure that he doesn't go back to prison. That is why I thought why shouldn't they go back to that kind of prison. I just want to see the guards safe and keep the HIV rates down.
 
I am not able to find "Competent to Die: The Case of Alvin Ford" at Amazon.con nor at my county libraries online. I did googled "Alvin Ford" and found this link: ALVIN FORD



This part tells me that Ford was normal until close to the date of his execution which seemed to pushed him over the edge. It doesn't sound like that the isolation from incarceration caused his mental illness. It seems to me it is the thought of his upcoming death that caused his mental illness.

I am not 100% certain about executing any mentally-ill inmate. I have a friend that has a history of mental illness. He told me he still knows the right from wrong even when he is in mid of his mental breakdown. It seems that whatever is inhibiting him is gone when he is in a mental breakdown.

At the PBS series on Alcatratz, a former prisoner (an old man) visited the Alcratz and said that he went straight after his imprisonment as he said he is doing everything to make sure that he doesn't go back to prison. That is why I thought why shouldn't they go back to that kind of prison. I just want to see the guards safe and keep the HIV rates down.

I agree with you on the safety of the guards and the HIV rates. But let me look for the exact title and author of the book on Alvin Ford. There is so much more to it than what you found on Google. I think it would be an eye opening read for you. I read it several years ago as an undergraduate for a paper I wrote in a sociology class, and I may still have a copy of it somewhere.
 
I did. That post doesn't answer these questions:

Quote:
How do they train them? What methods do they use? What kind of discipline is used to enforce obedience and respect? Has there been long-term follow-up to determine if this "training" makes life-long changes?

:dunno:


Yes I have... I thought you know the philosophical logic what I said is "train teenagers positive" which mean is correct their behavior.


Liebling's previous post
Juvenile detention facitiy is about to train teenagers positive. It´s very hard training and strict.

I personally beleive that Juvenile detention facitiy is the best solution to train the teenagers until they are out of Juvenile detention facitiy and positive their behavior.


and other post
Juillvie detention facitiy for teenagers to develop their positive behavioral... Juillvie detention faciity is not luxury for youth crimes. They will learn their lesson there to positive their life

What I answer is good enough what I learn from my Dad where my nephew was there before.

I cannot make the list of programs what and how they did youth crimes there because I never have any experience there but my nephew. I didn't get him to tell me everything exact how and what they positive his behavior. I do not feel like to ask him because it's too much for him but what I know from him is too strict and never want to return to Junville ever again, that's all. He get punish easily if he disrespect/disown their rules. Yes, he work hard there and sports. I would thank Junville to expose my nephew into well behave person. Before he goes to Junville, he beat people up in the bar and disco over a little thing. After Junville, he know how to control his temper and walk off and well behave.

They have counselling, therapies there.


 
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If you think they deserves a hard punishment, then 20 years is the answer...

Again, I never said that I disagree with 20 years sentence. I only said in my first thread and again quoted your post.

No, I never say that they should get less sentence. I only said in first thread that I don't agree with judge's sentence and treat teenager as an adult because teenager should get the help. He is too young to face the crime which mean is they should being sent to secure home (Junville detection - thank Cheri for put those word as US language) to train their behavior like what Jillo stated in her post #21. I don't care how many years the judge decide for youth crimes but not sentence them to share with volience adult where they will learn bad example from them when they are out of jail.
 
The Juvenile Detention Facilities does help teens with their drug abuse, dealing with anger, How to get out of or stay out of gangs and etc.. But it not that easy to send those teens to the juvenile detention, it all depends upon the judge, how serious the crime was, and the age of the teens, and history of what they've been charge with in the previous past. Those teenagers who committed a crime on the mother and son would not most likely get any special friendly treatments from other teens who are staying in the Juvenile Detention especially those who are 12 and 13 years olds, not after what they hears what those teens did to the 12 years old son.

I guess that German and US system for teenagers are different. If they abused drugs and alochol then send them to spa resort, not to Juvenile Detention.

The teenagers who can't control their temper or suffer disorder etc then go to see behaviorial specialist and kind of therapies.

The teenagers who violate the law then send them to Juvenile Detention, no matter how serious they are. Depend on judge's decision how long they sentence them. Sometimes they decided to sentence them life when there're very serious... Really depend on crimes what and how they commit... If there're very serious crimes, they make, they stay in Juvenile detention until they are 18 years old then move them to adult prison.............



Imagining being a mother and your 12 years old son was held at the Juvenile Hall would you want your son to be in the same room with those teens that tortured, brutally beaten and poured household cleaning liquids into the 12 years old's eyes. I cannot imagine any mothers would want those teens in the same building or the same room as their sons/daughters.


Well, teenagers who commit murder are also in Juvenile detention as well.
 
Prosecuting kids as adults: Some say laws too harsh, states taking second look

CHICAGO - A generation after America decided to get tough on kids who commit crimes _ sometimes locking them up for life _ the tide may be turning.

States are rethinking and, in some cases, retooling juvenile sentencing laws. They are responding to new research on the adolescent brain, and studies that indicate teens sent to adult court end up worse off than those who are not: They get in trouble more often, they do it faster and the offenses are more serious.

Shay Bilchik, head of the Center for Juvenile Justice Reform at Georgetown University in Washington, D.C, referred to tough sentencing laws adopted in the 1990s as the "trifecta of bad criminal justice policy" _ borrowing a term from race track betting that loosely translates as the "perfect example."

"People didn't know that at the time the changes were made," said Bilchik, a former prosecutor. "Now we do, and we have to learn from it."

Juvenile crime is down, in contrast to the turbulent last decade when politicians vied to pass laws to get violent kids off the streets. Now, in calmer times, some champion community programs for young offenders to replace punitive measures they say went too far.

"The net was thrown too broadly," says Howard Snyder, director of systems research at the nonprofit National Center for Juvenile Justice. "When you make these general laws ... a lot of people believe they made it too easy for kids to go into the adult system and it's not a good place to be."

Some states are reconsidering giving teens a life sentence without parole. Some are focusing on raising the age of juvenile court jurisdiction, while others are exploring ways to offer kids a second chance, once they're locked up _ or even before.

"There has been a huge sea change ... it's across the country," says Laurie Garduque, a program director at the private, grant-making MacArthur Foundation, which is heavily involved in juvenile justice reform.

Not everyone, though, believes there's reason to roll back harsher penalties adopted in the 1990s.

"The laws that were changed were appropriate and necessary," says Minnesota prosecutor James Backstrom. "We need to focus on the protecting the public _ that's No. 1. Then we can address the needs of the juvenile offenders."

Each year about 200,000 defendants under 18 are sent directly or transferred to the adult system, known as criminal court, according to rough estimates.

Most end up there because of state laws that automatically define them as adults, due to their age or offense. Their ranks rose in the 1990s as juvenile crime soared and 48 states made it easier to transfer kids into criminal court, according to the juvenile justice center.

These changes gave prosecutors greater latitude (they could transfer kids without a judge's permission), lowered the age or expanded the crimes that would make it mandatory for a case to be tried in adult courts.

Some states also adopted blended sentences in which two sanctions can be imposed simultaneously; if the teen follows the terms of the juvenile sentence, the adult sentence is revoked.

The changes were intended to curb the explosion in violence _ the teen murder arrest rate doubled from 1987 to 1993 _ and to address mounting frustrations with the juvenile justice system.

A series of horrific crimes by kids rattled the nation: A sixth-grader shot and killed a stranger. A 12-year-old stomped and beat a younger playmate. Two grade-schoolers dropped a 5-year-old 14 stories to his death.

Some academics warned that a new generation of "superpredators" would soon be committing mayhem.

It never happened. Drug trafficking declined. An improved economy produced more jobs. And the rate of juvenile violent crime arrests plummeted 46 percent from 1994 to 2005, according to U.S. government figures.

"When crime goes down, people have an opportunity to be more reflective than crisis-oriented and ask, `Was this policy a good policy?'" Bilchik says.

The MacArthur Foundation, based in Chicago, said in a report to be released this month that about half the states are involved in juvenile justice reform.

And a national poll, commissioned by MacArthur and the Center for Children's Law and Policy in Washington, D.C., and set for release at the same time, also found widespread public support for rehabilitating teens rather than locking them up.

Some states have already begun to make changes.

_In Colorado, Gov. Bill Ritter recently formed a juvenile clemency board to hear cases of kids convicted as adults. The head of the panel says it's an acknowledgment that teens are different from adults _ a point made in the 2005 U.S. Supreme Court decision that outlawed the death penalty for crimes committed as juveniles.

In 2006, the state replaced the juvenile life-without-parole sentence with the possibility of parole after 40 years.

_In California and Michigan, juvenile life without parole also is getting another look.

_In Connecticut, lawmakers recently raised the age of juveniles to 18 for most cases; the changes will be phased in by 2010. Prosecutors can still transfer felonies to adult court.

_In Illinois, a proposal to move 17-year-olds charged with misdemeanors to juvenile court passed in the state Senate and is pending in the House.

_In Wyoming, talks are under way to shed a system that routinely charges and jails juveniles as adults even for minor offenses such as underage drinking.

Last summer, Rhode Island passed a law to send 17-year-old offenders to adult prisons in what was intended as a cost-cutting move. The measure, however, was quickly repealed after critics pointed out the plan probably would be more expensive.

Many say the two systems are dramatically different: Juvenile justice emphasizes rehabilitation, adult courts focus on punishment.

Reginald Dwayne Betts, just 16 when he was charged with carjacking in Virginia, was locked up more than eight years, mostly in adult prisons.

"Of course it makes a difference if you're 15, 16 or 17," he says. "You're not prepared to deal with it physically or emotionally. You're trying to deal with being away from home. You're trying to deal with the stress that comes with being in prison."

Violence was a constant. "I got used to stuff most people I see today would never have to get used to _ like somebody getting their head split open," Betts says.

Betts had problems at first but gradually retreated into books, taught himself Spanish, wrote and published poetry.

When he was released two years ago at age 24, he won a college scholarship. Now engaged and planning to write a book, he knows he's an exception: "People don't come out of prison and make good," he says.

In New York, Judge Michael Corriero is aware of those odds.

He presides over a special court in the adult system _ it's called the Manhattan Youth Part and is responsible for resolving the cases of 13- to 15-year-olds accused of serious crimes.

Corriero tries to steer as many kids as possible away from criminal court, a philosophy detailed in his book, "Judging Children as Children."

"You take a 14-year-old and give him an adult sentence ... you're taking him out of the community at his most vulnerable time," he says. "If you put them in an institution, what is that kid going to look like in 10 years?"

Though juvenile crime tends to evoke images of gangs and murder, violent teens are the exception.

Studies show they account for about 5 percent of all juvenile arrests. Drugs, burglary, theft and other property crimes are among the more common reasons teens are prosecuted in adult courts.

Most of these kids, though, don't end up in adult prison, according to the Washington, D.C.-based Campaign for Youth Justice.

But crossing into the adult world is damaging in itself, argues Liz Ryan, head of the group. About 7,500 juveniles are held in adult jails on any given day, she says, and that number probably reaches tens of thousands a year because of turnover.

Being in an adult jail, Ryan says, increases a kid's risk of sexual abuse and assault. Educational opportunities are limited. And for those convicted of serious crimes, the damage can be irreparable.

"A lot of people say, 'So what? They get a slap on the wrist,'" Ryan says. "Well, there is a consequence. ... You have a felony record that follows you the rest of your life."

Sheila Montgomery worries about her son, Zack. He recently was released after serving 27 months for being an accomplice in the robbery of an Oregon convenience store. He had originally received a 7 1/2-year term after falsely confessing to being the robber; he was re-sentenced after evidence revealed he was not.

Montgomery says her son, now 17, will "forever be a felon. He can't put the past behind him. It was hard for him to find work. A lot of people didn't want to see him."

Montgomery says she has no problem with "a little bit of jail time" for her son but believes probation and counseling would have served him better.

But prosecutors say some kids are just too dangerous to be prosecuted as juveniles and then be released by age 21.

If a criminal is likely to be free in a few years and do more harm, "then I come down on the side of risking the damage that is done by sending someone to prison," says Gary Walker, a Michigan prosecutor.

"When they tell me placing a younger person in an adult setting is not necessarily for the betterment of the individual," Walker says, "my answer is: 'Who thinks it is?'"

Minnesota prosecutor Backstrom didn't hesitate in prosecuting Matthew Niedere and Clayton Keister, then 17, as adults in the murder of Niedere's parents. He says he had to "make a very difficult decision whether to put these young men away for their natural lives, or give them a chance."

He weighed several factors, including their lack of criminal record and research that shows the part of the brain that regulates impulses and aggression is still developing in the 20s.

Backstrom allowed the teens to plead guilty to murder involving an armed robbery _ providing for the possibility of parole in 30 years.

More than a decade ago, Backstrom had pressed Minnesota lawmakers to make it easier for prosecutors to take serious cases into adult court.

He was frustrated when he couldn't try as an adult a 16-year-old who killed an acquaintance in a drug dispute and served less than 1 1/2 years in juvenile detention.

"That's not justice," Backstrom says. "He should have gone to prison 15 or 20 years. That's what would have happened today."

State Attorney Harry Shorstein of Jacksonville, Florida, has his own approach.

"I think I've created my own juvenile justice system," he says. "The secret is not choosing punishment vs. prevention, but using both."

In 16 years, Shorstein's office has transferred more than 2,600 juvenile cases to adult court. Almost all those who've broken the law go to jail for about a year, where they live separately from adults, attend school and receive social services.

If they stay out of trouble while locked up, and for two years of probation, they don't get a record.

"I believe crime is like gymnastics," he says. "It really is a young person's sport. If you incapacitate a 15- or 16-year-old for a year, you can prevent more crime than if you imprison a 22-year-old for life."

Prosecuting kids as adults: Some say laws too harsh, states taking second look - MSNBC Wire Services - MSNBC.com
 
Liebling--

Those teenagers did the most aggressive violent crime, and should be locked up with adults in prison because they're dangerous, not only to themselves but to those around them, Who would want those teens in the Juvenile facilities? It's naive to think many of these very violent teens are going to stop, if we don't protected them by sending them to Juvenile facilities. Those crimes they did shows that they have a mind of a criminal behavior, and no way they would want those type of people at the Juvenile facilities. Sometimes prosecutors has to do whatever it takes to protect those innocents out in the world and the victims who suffered the blow.
 
Again, I never said that I disagree with 20 years sentence. I only said in my first thread and again quoted your post.

No, I never say that they should get less sentence. I only said in first thread that I don't agree with judge's sentence and treat teenager as an adult because teenager should get the help. He is too young to face the crime which mean is they should being sent to secure home (Junville detection - thank Cheri for put those word as US language) to train their behavior like what Jillo stated in her post #21. I don't care how many years the judge decide for youth crimes but not sentence them to share with volience adult where they will learn bad example from them when they are out of jail.

Juvenile detention centers serves lesser sentences while adult court serves much longer sentences, why is it preferable for a minor who did such a horrible crime like this get a hearing in juvenile court, instead of a trial in adult court? also In several states juvenile court does not include children over the age of 16 so therefore the judge did the right thing IMO.
 
Yes I have... I thought you know the philosophical logic what I said is "train teenagers positive" which mean is correct their behavior.
Yes, I know the philosophy. But philosophy has to be put into action in order to make change. What are their techniques? HOW do they train them to obey? I think every parent and teacher could benefit from a special technique that trains extremely rebellious and violent teen boys to obey.

Juvenile detention facitiy is about to train teenagers positive. It´s very hard training and strict.
What is the hard training and strictness? That's what I'm asking. What incentives do they use? What do they do that is "strict"? The boys are already confined, and the staff aren't allowed to use corporal punishment, so how do they control and train them? Do you have a link that describes this training? I'm very curious to know how they do it.


Juillvie detention facitiy for teenagers to develop their positive behavioral... Juillvie detention faciity is not luxury for youth crimes. They will learn their lesson there to positive their life
How does the facility staff develop the boys' positive behavior? What techniques do they use? What do they use for incentives and positive reinforcement? What do they use for punishment or discipline?

What I answer is good enough what I learn from my Dad where my nephew was there before.

I cannot make the list of programs what and how they did youth crimes there because I never have any experience there but my nephew. I didn't get him to tell me everything exact how and what they positive his behavior. I do not feel like to ask him because it's too much for him but what I know from him is too strict and never want to return to Junville ever again, that's all. He get punish easily if he disrespect/disown their rules.
What kind of punishment?

Yes, he work hard there and sports. I would thank Junville to expose my nephew into well behave person. Before he goes to Junville, he beat people up in the bar and disco over a little thing. After Junville, he know how to control his temper and walk off and well behave.

They have counselling, therapies there.
I'm very glad that it worked out for your nephew. :)

I just think it would be great to know HOW his behavior was changed so other people could benefit from that kind of training. I'm surprised that it's so confidential. It seems that if they have therapies that work so well that they would want to share that with everyone.
 
Teenagers that does violent crimes often times come from broke home families, poor street family, abuser and then become the abuser themself take it out on other people that could end up in the gang in first place, also to mention even school kids give each other peer pressure which even bad enough. It not just teenagers get raped, it also some younger girls like 11 years get raped too. The cops, Gang rape of 11-year-old girl taped on cell phone and it was also taped. She was raped repeatly by five young teenagers boy and one adult who happen to be 19. Now, the teens could face up to life in prison if convicted of raping the girl in the basement of an Eastpointe home. The 10-second cell phone video clip, which no longer exists, was passed around the girl's neighborhood until her mother heard about it and reported it to police. The five suspects, ages 15-19, are charged as adults. They are scheduled to appear for a March 8 pretrial hearing. The legal age for consensual sex in Michigan is 16.

"The sad thing is she was raped by these five men repeatedly. They took turns and coerced her and forced her into this. "It is a horrific case. It sickens me to see this."
All of the younger teens are being held on $50,000 cash bonds. I hope they pay for it in jail.
 
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