Student, 16, Finds Allies in His Fight Over Religion

[Reba]

So to clarify, then... is it your position that there are "good" people in hell, but because they didn't accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, they're damned for eternity, despite their inherent goodness?

No one has inherent goodness. We are all sinners by nature. No one is "good" enough to go to Heaven on their own merits.

That doesn't mean all people behave in an evil way. We all have the sin nature but we don't all constantly commit sins. We can behave in a "good" way. However, none of our goodness approaches God's sinless perfection.

Romans 3
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Isaiah 64
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

When you say that the "lost" are "already in Satan's pocket", you don't mean necessarily that they're on his SIDE (ie, evil... that is, assuming you believe that Satan is evil), but rather, he just "owns" them?

Yes. I believe that a very small percentage of people are actually consciously "on Satan's side" or actively worshiping him.

But... that whole "free will" thing... how exactly does that work when we're Satan's property? We're slaves who can do what we want... is that what you're saying?

I'm not a theologian or a prophet, so I don't know if I can adequately explain exactly how it "works". But I'll give you my understanding.

The Bible says that all people are slaves. We are either slaves to Satan, or slaves to Jesus. That concept has a very negative connotation to today's people.

We belong to either Satan or God. But we do have free will to decide which master to whom we belong. If we accept Jesus Christ, then we become His slave. If we don't accept Jesus, then by default we are slaves to Satan. If we accept Jesus as Savior, His blood shed on the cross redeems us. That is, His blood purchases our ownership from Satan. We then become the slaves of Jesus, not Satan. That purchase is permanent.

That is, we were Satan's "property" until Jesus bought us with His own blood. However, Jesus only purchases us if we agree to be purchased. That's the free will. Jesus offers to purchase us from Satan but we can refuse that offer.

Once we agree to the offer of Jesus, and accept Him as Savior, then we belong to Him forever.

I'm afraid my explanation is very shallow and brief in this format.

I take it personally because you are sitting on a throne of moral and spiritual superiority, making claims that anyone not like you (saved) is destined for hellfire.

I'm a sinner, no better than anyone else, and a lot worse than others. I'm not superior to anyone else. The only reason I can even touch the holy Heaven is God is thru the sacrifice of Jesus. I've done nothing to earn my place in Heaven. It was all Jesus. My "claims" about Hell are not mine but from God.

Revelation 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Do you, or do you not, equate hell with all that is wicked and evil? If you don't, then perhaps I've misunderstood what so many other Christians have proclaimed for centuries... or perhaps your brand of religion is just different, I don't know.

Hell is the final destination for all who sin. It was first created as a place to send Satan and his fallen angel demons. Because of man's sin, it will also be the final destination for all who have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Yes, Hell is an awful place of eternal burning torment. When you ask do I "equate" Hell with all that is wicked and evil, I'm not sure what you mean by that. I don't think Hell is the source of evil and wickedness, if that's what you mean. Also, I don't believe it's a place where people and demons will spend eternity cavorting in evil. There won't be any interaction between dead people and demons, or even with other people. It certainly isn't a destination anyone would desire.

If I'm not understanding your question correctly, please let me know.

There are, after all, so many different "takes" on "God's Word" out there, and each one of you claims to follow the "true" meaning of the Word, etc. Which is why I asked you to define what "lost" means, to you.

Fair enough.

But I beg to differ with you. I can't tell you how many Christians I've met in my life who consider themselves "soldiers for the Lord", who go out of their way to confront "evil-doing" in all its nefarious forms; who see themselves as the "salt of the earth", and the "light" that shall lead those lost back onto the true path on enlightenment, yada yada yada. If a person's relationship (or non-relationship) with God is a personal one... then why the proseletyzation? Why the butting in? Why the strife between different denominations about whose version of "the truth" is the right one?

The Christian's relationship with the Lord is personal, one-on-One, yes. The Christian's responsibility to the Lord is to share the Gospel with the unsaved, disciple the new Christians, and to live as a good example in his/her society. Because we Christians strongly believe that an eternal destination of Hell is so awful, we don't want anyone to end up there. If you knew there was a danger ahead for someone else who couldn't see it, wouldn't you do what you could to prevent them from falling into it?

However, Christians are saved sinners. That means, even though they now have the Holy Spirit within them, they are still stuck with the sin nature they were born with. How they live either feeds the Holy Spirit and starves the sin nature, or vice versa. Because they are still human sinners (imperfect) they don't always behave the right way. It's a disgrace when anyone claiming the name Christian acts in a non-Christian way. That is exactly the kind of thing that unsaved people focus on, and it damages the cause of Christ. There are also others who, in their zeal to do right, unintentionally offend. Finally, the Gospel is an offense to those who don't want to accept it. There is nothing any human can do about that. People were offended when Jesus spoke the truth, and He was perfect. Imperfect humans certainly will seem even more offensive than Jesus.

I'm not saying that YOU, personally, have said any of the above... I'm more curious to know your thoughts on those comments, and whether or not you see YOURself as a "soldier for the Lord".

My goal is not to hurt anyone but sometimes my ways of expression are harsh and clumsy.

I'm not sure if your definition and mine for "soldier for the Lord" would be the same but if you mean do I believe that I should contend for the Lord and His Gospel, then yes.

...But in a world where people are "soldiers" for the Lord... it sends a pretty clear message to everyone else that there's a "war" afoot, and those of us who want nothing more than to live our lives free of religious influence find ourselves typically on the defense in a war we wanted nothing to do with, in the first place.

Yes, there is a war, a spiritual war.

II Corinthians 10
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Reba, come now. You are one of the most judgmental people here (just as I am likely one of the most opinionated), and I often attribute it to the fact that you are so strong in your beliefs. But you DEFINITELY see things in black or white, good vs evil, etc. You often point out how something is out of synch with scripture, how "such and such isn't obeying the bible", etc. I imagine you fancy yourself somewhat of a biblical scholar (you do know your scriptures!), and you're very quick to point out exactly what various scripture passages MEAN, using your version of interpretation. There is little room for deviation from that interpretation, in your book.

I'm not a scholar by any stretch of the imagination. I have much, much more to learn from God's Word.

The beauty of this forum is that people are also free to post opinions and interpretations different from mine, or just ignore my posts. It works both ways. I sure don't have the final word on any topic. Mine's just one of many.

And THAT is why that kind of zealotry, that kind of religious obstinance is so dangerous... because we live in a world where not everyone believes as you believe, and it's never going to be that way. In a world where SO MANY of our world's religions hold so strongly to their beliefs and convictions... it does nothing but set the stage for conflict, again and again. Good grief, that's why there's been unrest in the Middle East for thousands of years.

It's scary because some "faithful" are so militant... so determined to sway others to their cause. It's just as frightening as Islamic Jihad, to me. I'm sorry, but it's true.

I don't believe in using any kind of physical force in spreading the Gospel. It's impossible to "force" salvation on anyone. I don't believe there are any geographical Christian territories, or Christian races. If anyone uses violence or intimidation as a way to force conversion, I totally condemn it.

...It means that no matter how well I try to live my life and help my fellow man... all that means nothing to people like you. I'm doomed from the start.

If you don't believe what I say about Heaven and Hell, then why does it upset you? If non-believers say I'm two-dimensional, judgmental, ignorant, or whatever, I take their observations under advisement, and, if they have merit I try to do something about them. If they don't have merit, then I move on.

Should I CARE what you think, or what the entire convocation of Southern Baptists thinks about my eternal damnation?

Just for the record, I'm not a Southern Baptist.

I suppose I wouldn't care so much if there weren't so many fundamentalist Christians out there attempting to sway everyone to their way of thinking.

It's because we care, and don't want anyone to suffer God's judgment. We would be very selfish if we kept the Gospel to ourselves. I'm very glad that someone presented the Gospel to me when I was 28 years old.

I'm a good person (or I try to be, at any rate), and I'd just as soon be judged (and I assure you, we ALL judge) on my actions on this earth, rather than given the "Not Worth It -- He's Going to Hell Anyway" badge to wear for the rest of my life.

There is no way that I believe or would say that you're not worth saving. If that were the case, I would never have been saved either. We are none worthy and yet all are equally precious to Jesus.

Romans 5
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

I believe you... I don't think you intended it, either.

 

[jillio]

What about Mahatma Ghandi?

 

[VamPyroX]

I agree with jillio. But Vamprox, I dont know if you understanding what I meant. What I am saying, it's a club of your choosing, like, pom pom girls, CFA, drama club, and etc. That is separate from classes.

If it's a club of your choosing, then that's up to you to join or not. However, a particular club shouldn't preach something else that they actually intend to do. For instance, if it was a Christian club... then we obviously know to expect Biblical talks and activities. If it was a PomPom Cheerleading club, then we obviously know that it's where people can do cheerleading things... not Biblical or Christian things (or Satanical things).

Here at RIT, we have a church group called Campus Crusade for Christ. It's a Christian group where students can go to do activities of all sorts, but focus a lot on church, reading the Bible, doing verses, etc. There's also a deaf Asian club called Asian Deaf Club. They don't preach about church or anything, just Asian culture, host programs to teach Asian history, etc.

 

[christlovedeaf]

If it's a club of your choosing, then that's up to you to join or not. However, a particular club shouldn't preach something else that they actually intend to do. For instance, if it was a Christian club... then we obviously know to expect Biblical talks and activities. If it was a PomPom Cheerleading club, then we obviously know that it's where people can do cheerleading things... not Biblical or Christian things (or Satanical things).

Here at RIT, we have a church group called Campus Crusade for Christ. It's a Christian group where students can go to do activities of all sorts, but focus a lot on church, reading the Bible, doing verses, etc. There's also a deaf Asian club called Asian Deaf Club. They don't preach about church or anything, just Asian culture, host programs to teach Asian history, etc.

I know where you are getting at. I know what Campus Crusade for Christ is. They aren't the pressure ones. Sometimes you to know the difference between preaching and sharing. But as the preaching goes can also mean sharing. There is a difference way of how you use the word "preaching". If by saying simple word "God", get all caught up by using the word preaching. They share their experience and how to share others in appropriate way. Not by grabbing your throat and make you converted, and by saying if you don't follow my "religion" you are going to hell. That is not what Jesus said and how He act. How much seasoning do you like to put in your meat? Same way, how much seasoning is my life is? I like how Reba puts it, and I'm that kind also, I, myself, doesn't think highly than others. I am just like everyone else, but my choosing of Christ is bec who He is and what He done. It's based on how you look at. If they don't pressure you, then what's the problem? And it's nothing new, many non believer exaggerating the way how christians are doing and treating others and etc. But as the extremist goes, to me, it is very unchristlikeness.

 

[InTheGenes]

Reba, thanks for your thoughtful reply. While we may see things differently, I do appreciate the time you took to reply.

I have a few overall/general comments to make, but before I do, some specific ones, about some of the things you said.

No one has inherent goodness. We are all sinners by nature. No one is "good" enough to go to Heaven on their own merits.

That doesn't mean all people behave in an evil way. We all have the sin nature but we don't all constantly commit sins. We can behave in a "good" way. However, none of our goodness approaches God's sinless perfection.

I think for me to find these kinds of posts more palatable, I'm simply going to need to insert "Based on what I believe..." at the beginning of each of your sentences, when you start quoting scripture and making sweeping statements like "No one", or "we all", or "everyone", etc. It sounds simplistic, and maybe it is... but if you consider for a moment that I don't buy into the kinds of beliefs that you hold very strongly, you might realize that quoting scripture to me as a "how to" guide on how to live my life is as absurd to me as my quoting "Lord of the Rings" to you. Or the Book of Mormon, or the Communist Manifesto, or Grimm's Fairy Tales. I don't mean to impugn that which you obviously hold dear... for I know that you truly believe in it... but I don't. Which is OK... because the Constitution of the United States guarantees us both the right to worship/believe as we see fit, or not to do so. On that, I hope we can agree.

However, in thinking about this over the last day or two, I think I may have stumbled upon something. You'll notice that I made reference to the Constitution above, which is a man-made device... a secular law. I find myself wondering: do you acknowledge the law of Man, as you do your God? Do the laws of God supercede man-made laws, in your view? Do you believe that God's law (as you understand them) apply to all, whether or not they believe as you do?

I think one of the major differences between us is that as a non-believer, I don't expect you to follow suit, and renounce your faith. Conversely, it would appear that in some fashion, Christians such as yourself DO expect the rest of us to adhere to your belief system, and the rules that govern you, as set forth in your holy scriptures.

We see MANY examples of this in today's society. Anytime something that happens that doesn't "fit" within the structure of your (not you, specifically, of course) religious beliefs and morals (whether it's a the topic of evolution in schools, the mention of homosexuality as part of the curriculum in a school system's health and human sexuality unit, abortion, contraception advocacy, etc.) there is a concerted effort on the part of some religious folks to influence the outcome, in their favor.

I DO bristle when attempts are made to influence secular law based on religious beliefs, because it flies in the face of the separation between church and state, a concept upon which our nation was founded.

The Bible says that all people are slaves. We are either slaves to Satan, or slaves to Jesus. That concept has a very negative connotation to today's people.

We belong to either Satan or God. But we do have free will to decide which master to whom we belong. If we accept Jesus Christ, then we become His slave. If we don't accept Jesus, then by default we are slaves to Satan. If we accept Jesus as Savior, His blood shed on the cross redeems us. That is, His blood purchases our ownership from Satan. We then become the slaves of Jesus, not Satan. That purchase is permanent.

That is, we were Satan's "property" until Jesus bought us with His own blood. However, Jesus only purchases us if we agree to be purchased. That's the free will. Jesus offers to purchase us from Satan but we can refuse that offer.

Once we agree to the offer of Jesus, and accept Him as Savior, then we belong to Him forever.

Again, those are your beliefs, and are "truth" to you. I do not share those beliefs, however.

Hell is the final destination for all who sin. It was first created as a place to send Satan and his fallen angel demons. Because of man's sin, it will also be the final destination for all who have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Yes, Hell is an awful place of eternal burning torment. When you ask do I "equate" Hell with all that is wicked and evil, I'm not sure what you mean by that. I don't think Hell is the source of evil and wickedness, if that's what you mean. Also, I don't believe it's a place where people and demons will spend eternity cavorting in evil. There won't be any interaction between dead people and demons, or even with other people. It certainly isn't a destination anyone would desire.

Again, thanks for your interpretation and explanation. So, if I'm summarizing what you've said over the past few posts correctly, you believe that anyone not surrendering themselves to the belief in the Lord Jesus Christ will spend their afterlife in the "awful place of eternal burning torment", commonly referred to as Hell. Anyone not "saved" will remain Satan's property, yes?

Here, we'll have to agree to disagree, because I categorically reject that notion. I'm sure that in your eyes, you believe that makes very little difference, whether I believe it or not... anymore than your claiming that it is so will make it any more "true" for me.

The Christian's relationship with the Lord is personal, one-on-One, yes. The Christian's responsibility to the Lord is to share the Gospel with the unsaved, disciple the new Christians, and to live as a good example in his/her society. Because we Christians strongly believe that an eternal destination of Hell is so awful, we don't want anyone to end up there. If you knew there was a danger ahead for someone else who couldn't see it, wouldn't you do what you could to prevent them from falling into it?

I appreciate the altruistic notion. I'll try to keep that more in the forefront of my mind when dealing with Christians. Perhaps that will help me to keep from feeling offended, and reduce it to mere annoyance. Although, by the sounds of it, it sounds like its something that is just never going to stop, even if I indicate I'm not interested. ::groan::

Yes, there is a war, a spiritual war.

Yeah, I was afraid I'd hear you say that. We've heard it before, of course. Religious fervor can be a powerful force to be reckoned with, to be sure... but it is often misused/abused by those claiming to be soldiers of God. More war and strife on this planet has been caused by those espousing the purported word of God. As long as we have different (and strongly held) beliefs in this world, I guess we're never going to know peace.

The beauty of this forum is that people are also free to post opinions and interpretations different from mine, or just ignore my posts. It works both ways. I sure don't have the final word on any topic. Mine's just one of many.

And I can appreciate that.

I don't believe in using any kind of physical force in spreading the Gospel. It's impossible to "force" salvation on anyone. I don't believe there are any geographical Christian territories, or Christian races. If anyone uses violence or intimidation as a way to force conversion, I totally condemn it.

I'm actually surprised to hear you say that you don't believe in using any kind of physical force in spreading the Gospel, given your comments in other threads concerning the Iraq War, etc. Surely you must see that a lot of the anti-Muslim sentiment being fostered in the world today is fed directly by Christians who view Muslim and Islamic beliefs as abomination. To be honest with you, I've found many of your comments to be quite bloodthirsty and inflammatory, as it relates to both the War AND the Muslim faith.

I'm also surprised to hear you say that it is impossible to "force" salvation on anyone, when it seems apparent that you think it's possible to force Democracy upon a nation.

I'm further surprised to hear you say that you believe that there are any geographical Christian territories... I've known so many Christians who claim that this is a Christian nation... or at the very least, founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

All in all, I'm glad to have had this discourse with you. At the very least, it helps me understand better why you say some of the things you say, and why you believe some of the things you believe. If anything, I respect your adherance to your beliefs, and your seemingly genuine concern for others. All I ask is a reciprocal respect that I (and others) don't share those same beliefs.

back atcha!

 

[Reba]

Reba, thanks for your thoughtful reply. While we may see things differently, I do appreciate the time you took to reply.

Same here for you.

I'll try to reply but it might be in "chunks". I'm waiting for a call to leave soon, so I'll try to tackle this as time allows.

 

[Reba]

... you might realize that quoting scripture to me as a "how to" guide on how to live my life is as absurd to me as my quoting "Lord of the Rings" to you.

I don't expect anyone to live his/her life following Scriptures until that person is saved and willingly submits to God's Word. But I quote the pertinent Scriptures so you can you can see that each of my beliefs has a Scriptural basis.

... because the Constitution of the United States guarantees us both the right to worship/believe as we see fit, or not to do so. On that, I hope we can agree.

Yes.

... Do the laws of God supercede man-made laws, in your view? Do you believe that God's law (as you understand them) apply to all, whether or not they believe as you do?

As a Christian, I obey my country's laws unless they conflict with God's law. If a civil law would require me to break one of God's laws (note, I said one of God's laws, not one of my religious preferences), then I would have to obey God and accept the consequences.

Daniel 6
6 Then these presidents and princes assembled together to the king, and said thus unto him, King Darius, live for ever. 7 All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions. 8 Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not. 9 Wherefore king Darius signed the writing and the decree. 10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.


But God established civil governments for orderly life on earth, which actually promotes the furtherance of His Gospel.

1 Timothy 2
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Jesus was confronted with this same question by the Pharisees, and He responded.

Matthew 22
15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk. 16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. 17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? 18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? 19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. 20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? 21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. 22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

 

[Reba]

...I think one of the major differences between us is that as a non-believer, I don't expect you to follow suit, and renounce your faith.

I couldn't even if I wanted to.

Romans 8
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Nomad]

As a sideshift (?) to this topic, has anyone heard of the Reverend Canon Dr. Arthur Peacocke? He is, or rather was (he died a few months ago), an ordainded priest in the Anglican church or the Church of England and was awarded the Templeton prize 2001, for furthering progress of religion. It so happens he was my wife's Uncle and we knew him personally. Google his name for further information.

He was a lecturer at Oxford University in England, his main interest was theology. But with a twist....he also was an ardent believer in science and that evolution, science and religion are inexorably intertwined with each other. Obviously, he had a strong faith as well.

Try: Arthur Peacocke Templeton Prize to start with to get an idea of his thoughts.

He worked on the discovery of penicillin as a young scientist and also helped to formulate the double helix theory of DNA. He was a biochemist by profession and an equally gifted mathematician as well. When I first met him, he seemed to me to be an absent minded professor - but what a mind! His wife is also one of the loveliest people we have had the privilege to meet and also of a brilliant mind and faith.

My point I guess, is although science and theology may not agree on many things, perhaps we should be looking 'outside the square' and looking for where they may meet and mix.....

In medieval times if you didn't think the world was flat, midwives weren't witches and science was satanic, then the church would have you burnt at the stake as a heretic. Perhaps a bit of a reminder of how science and religion have evolved together to date.

 

[Nomad]

Reba, I agree entirely with you that the texts should be read in their entirety when using them for quotes. This is how fundamentalists of all sects and religions distort viewpoints by leaving out the pertinent points of the texts, in short, manipulating our thoughts as best as they can by distortion.

I read your posts with interest, as I find them refreshingly intelligient and insightfull. Whilst I may not always agree, I believe you offer a feast for thought! Keep it coming....

 

[christlovedeaf]

As a sideshift (?) to this topic, has anyone heard of the Reverend Canon Dr. Arthur Peacocke? He is, or rather was (he died a few months ago), an ordainded priest in the Anglican church or the Church of England and was awarded the Templeton prize 2001, for furthering progress of religion. It so happens he was my wife's Uncle and we knew him personally. Google his name for further information.

He was a lecturer at Oxford University in England, his main interest was theology. But with a twist....he also was an ardent believer in science and that evolution, science and religion are inexorably intertwined with each other. Obviously, he had a strong faith as well.

Try: Arthur Peacocke Templeton Prize to start with to get an idea of his thoughts.

He worked on the discovery of penicillin as a young scientist and also helped to formulate the double helix theory of DNA. He was a biochemist by profession and an equally gifted mathematician as well. When I first met him, he seemed to me to be an absent minded professor - but what a mind! His wife is also one of the loveliest people we have had the privilege to meet and also of a brilliant mind and faith.

My point I guess, is although science and theology may not agree on many things, perhaps we should be looking 'outside the square' and looking for where they may meet and mix.....

In medieval times if you didn't think the world was flat, midwives weren't witches and science was satanic, then the church would have you burnt at the stake as a heretic. Perhaps a bit of a reminder of how science and religion have evolved together to date.

I do believe that science and religion does interwine. I always believe that. True, many taking out of context or taking part of the religion to make it appear what certain religion believes which not all of them are the same. I agree with what you looking at. I'm glad you brought that up.

 

[Nomad]

I watched a documentary on TV some time ago about a Judge in Yemen who went to the prison and interviewed some terrorists and Al Qeada people.

This judge was a radical himself in some ways, as he was opposed to the radical teachings of the radical Islamists.

I watched him challenging these offenders to show him where in the Koran that violence was the way to be right.

Invariably, none of these guys could find this or these texts that they were taught....

So, as part of the agreement with this judge, they rejected the radical teachings they had learned, repented (in the Islamic way) and were given their freedom. The TV interviews afterwards showed these guys as having given up their wicked ways (for lack of better words) and becoming moderate and peace loving muslims - with tolerance of others as well.

They were still totally committed to the Islamic faith, but the bullshit is gone.

I thought it was a wonderful story.

 

[deafdyke]

Wow, Nomand! Wish someone would do that with the Christian Idenity types.

you believe that anyone not surrendering themselves to the belief in the Lord Jesus Christ will spend their afterlife in the "awful place of eternal burning torment", commonly referred to as Hell. Anyone not "saved" will remain Satan's property, yes?

Reba......are you of the beleif that anything not "specifcly" Christian is automaticly of the devil? What about Ba'hais or Unitarians? They both acknowledge Jesus as a valuable Teacher, and Prophet but not as the ONLY Teacher or source of Wisdom out there.

 

[christlovedeaf]

Wow, Nomand! Wish someone would do that with the Christian Idenity types.




Reba......are you of the beleif that anything not "specifcly" Christian is automaticly of the devil? What about Ba'hais or Unitarians? They both acknowledge Jesus as a valuable Teacher, and Prophet but not as the ONLY Teacher or source of Wisdom out there.

There are some christians are the same way.

 

[Reba]

Reba......are you of the beleif that anything not "specifcly" Christian is automaticly of the devil?

What do you mean by "anything"? Do you mean material things, or ideas, or spiritual beliefs, or ...? I think you mean spiritual beliefs because I don't think there are such things as "Christian" cars and umbrellas but I could be wrong.

What about Ba'hais or Unitarians? They both acknowledge Jesus as a valuable Teacher, and Prophet but not as the ONLY Teacher or source of Wisdom out there.

What about Ba'hais or Unitarians? What do you want to know about them? Ask a Ba'hain or Unitarian.

Any individual, group, or religion that states that Jesus was just a teacher or prophet but not God does not promote nor follow the teachings of Jesus and the Bible.

 

[Reba]

... Conversely, it would appear that in some fashion, Christians such as yourself DO expect the rest of us to adhere to your belief system, and the rules that govern you, as set forth in your holy scriptures.

We see MANY examples of this in today's society. Anytime something that happens that doesn't "fit" within the structure of your (not you, specifically, of course) religious beliefs and morals (whether it's a the topic of evolution in schools, the mention of homosexuality as part of the curriculum in a school system's health and human sexuality unit, abortion, contraception advocacy, etc.) there is a concerted effort on the part of some religious folks to influence the outcome, in their favor.

Don't all American citizens have that right? We're taxpayers and parents, too, so we should be able to have our say just like any other special interest group, right? Should Christians just shut up and sit down?

Did you know that there are many non-Christians who are also against or for many of the same things that Christians are against or for? Do you think Christians are the only people who are against abortion, for example?

I DO bristle when attempts are made to influence secular law based on religious beliefs, because it flies in the face of the separation between church and state, a concept upon which our nation was founded.

I agree that secular laws shouldn't control how people worship or choose not to worship.

But why can't a person's religious beliefs be one of the factors that influence how he lobbies or votes? Many factors influence a person's political decisions; upbringing, occupation, race, culture, income level, sex, family composition, geography, age, education level, etc. Why shouldn't one's religion be a factor?

Again, those are your beliefs, and are "truth" to you. I do not share those beliefs, however.

That's your right.

Again, thanks for your interpretation and explanation. So, if I'm summarizing what you've said over the past few posts correctly, you believe that anyone not surrendering themselves to the belief in the Lord Jesus Christ will spend their afterlife in the "awful place of eternal burning torment", commonly referred to as Hell. Anyone not "saved" will remain Satan's property, yes?

Yes, with one caveat. The phrase "the belief in the Lord Jesus Christ." I just want to clarify it. A born-again Christian is saved when he/she repents and accepts Jesus Christ as Savior. That is, a sinner believes Jesus Christ can save him from the punishment of sin. That's not quite the same as just having a belief that Jesus is the Christ. Even Satan and his demons acknowledged that Jesus was Who He said He was. But Satan and his demons never repented and accepted the salvation of Jesus Christ. That's the difference in meaning.

Long before I became saved, I believed that God and Jesus were real. But I didn't believe Jesus could save me. So even though I "believed in" the existence of Jesus, I was a lost sinner on my way to Hell. Until the moment that I "believed Jesus" and trusted Him to save me, I was just as lost as the most ardent atheist denier of Christ. That moment that I repented my sin and trusted Jesus, then I "believed" Him. That's the moment I entrusted my eternal soul to Him.

 

[Reba]

...I appreciate the altruistic notion. I'll try to keep that more in the forefront of my mind when dealing with Christians. Perhaps that will help me to keep from feeling offended, and reduce it to mere annoyance. Although, by the sounds of it, it sounds like its something that is just never going to stop, even if I indicate I'm not interested. ::groan::

I can't guarantee that every Christian will use the right approach or attitude with you, so it's possible you will be offended at times.

I don't believe a Christian should stay silent but neither do I believe there is any benefit to hounding a person. God only requires a Christian to be faithful in presenting the Gospel. God does not require a Christian to be successful in converting a nonbeliever. That is the responsibility of the Holy Spirit.

I Corinthians 3
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

 

[Reba]

Yeah, I was afraid I'd hear you say that. We've heard it before, of course. Religious fervor can be a powerful force to be reckoned with, to be sure... but it is often misused/abused by those claiming to be soldiers of God. More war and strife on this planet has been caused by those espousing the purported word of God. As long as we have different (and strongly held) beliefs in this world, I guess we're never going to know peace.

II Corinthians 10
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:


Christian warfare is spiritual, not physical. Our enemy is spiritual, not physical. Our weapons are spiritual, not physical.

Ephesians 6
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; 19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Hebrews 4
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[Reba]

...I'm actually surprised to hear you say that you don't believe in using any kind of physical force in spreading the Gospel, given your comments in other threads concerning the Iraq War, etc.

No souls can be saved by physically forcing the Gospel on anyone. That is counterproductive.

What does that have to do with the war in Iraq? Our soldiers are not there to spread the Gospel. If an individual Christian soldier gets an opportunity to share the Gospel with another individual in Iraq, that's fine. But that's not the US military's mission.

Surely you must see that a lot of the anti-Muslim sentiment being fostered in the world today is fed directly by Christians who view Muslim and Islamic beliefs as abomination. To be honest with you, I've found many of your comments to be quite bloodthirsty and inflammatory, as it relates to both the War AND the Muslim faith.

Is there a way to deal with terrorism without shedding blood?

Sure, I want terrorists wiped out. Because they're Muslim? NO! Because they're terrorists.

I don't support the Islamic religion but I don't believe it should be wiped out by the sword. What shocks me is how many of them are killed by their own people.

...when it seems apparent that you think it's possible to force Democracy upon a nation.

Did I say that?

I'm further surprised to hear you say that you believe that there are any geographical Christian territories... I've known so many Christians who claim that this is a Christian nation... or at the very least, founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

I do believe that the "discovery" and settlement of North America, and the establishment of the United States had Divine guidance. I don't believe that the United States is a theocracy, or even that Christians are in the majority of the population. There is no "Church of the USA" as there is a Church of England. There are no tax-supported denominations in the USA as there are in Germany.

Some of our Founding Fathers were Christians, some were not. For the most part they were at least Bible literate and aware of Judeo-Christian principles. They were anti-state church but they weren't anti-Christian.

I also believe that just as God has blessed us in the past, He can just as easily withdraw His blessings and special protection if He can no longer use us. I believe that will eventually happen.

 

[InTheGenes]

I don't expect anyone to live his/her life following Scriptures until that person is saved and willingly submits to God's Word.

This is contradicted somewhat in a later post, where you ask (in summation) isn't it everyone's right to attempt to sway/influence secular law, as taxpayers, etc. (I'll respond to that particular topic when I get around to that post. Two jobs and night classes make it difficult, at times, to be on here as much as I like! )

But for the sake of THIS post... what you say above DOES seem to contradict that other sentiment, somewhat. If you don't expect anyone to live their life following the scriptures until they're saved and willingly submit... then why attempt to influence secular law based on your religious/spiritual beliefs? It's almost like saying, "OK, you don't believe what I believe... but if I lobby the politicians enough to MAKE my beliefs into laws to which you're obligated to follow/adhere"... isn't that a bit under-handed? Perhaps you don't see it that way, being on the side of the coin that you're on... but for those of us on the other side, that's often what it feels like.

But I quote the pertinent Scriptures so you can you can see that each of my beliefs has a Scriptural basis.

I believe you, BELIEVE me! You needn't keep reminding me that everything you say has a scriptural basis; I've gotten that much from you. If, however, you prefer to continue doing so for the benefit of others that read our little discourse here, then by all means... exercise your free speech! But if you're doing it for MY benefit alone, you needn't bother; I gotcha!

As a Christian, I obey my country's laws unless they conflict with God's law. If a civil law would require me to break one of God's laws (note, I said one of God's laws, not one of my religious preferences), then I would have to obey God and accept the consequences.

And now here we are again, at the part of religious dogma that scares me. The fact that private citizens of the United States (or any other country, for that matter) will willfully commit a crime because "God told them to", regardless of the law of the land. That same excuse has been used by anti-abortion activists who blow up abortion clinics; by mothers who drown their children in bathtubs; by islamic jihadists who call on their brothers to "destroy the infidels!" Each of those three examples are examples where the perpetrator of a crime (murder) has done so in the name of God, or because they believed that God TOLD them to do it. And for my part, I don't believe that their religious zeal was any less fervent or that their convictions were any less strongly held than your own, my dear Reba. They BELIEVE(D), as do you.

But God established civil governments for orderly life on earth, which actually promotes the furtherance of His Gospel.

Again, more proof here that Christians believe that the purpose (or one of them, at least) of civil government and secular law is to further religious doctrine. To which I say: No, NO, NO! THAT is the sentiment under which a great many people in this country chafe. That is NOT the reason for secular government, and it was never meant to be.