Sound and Fury DVD

C-NICE said:
I have given this some thought & do not want to rile anyone(just my feeling on the issue). The root of the problem as I see it is how CI's were presented from the start(probably maketing by CI makers). They were presented as a cure, we all know that in some cases they are very helpful but they are not a cure. Also if you present something as a cure you implie a defect.
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As someone who was deeply involved in the cochlear implant community almost from the start, my daughter was implanted in 89, you have missed the mark in your opinion as to the "root of the problem".

First, if people had been willing to accept the diversity that existed and still exists in the entire deaf community, there would never have been a "problem" at all.

Second, there was only one manufacturer at that time: Cochlear Corp. and third, I never heard anyone from either Cochlear Corp., the implant centers we spoke to, the implant surgeons we spoke to, and from organizations such as CICI ever state that the cochlear implant was a cure for deafness.

In fact, when deciding to get the implant for our child, our professional and dedicated implant team at NYU made certain to understate the expectations and results we should expect for our daughter.

As someone who has been there from almost the beginning and fought the good fight, the "root of the problem" has never been with the parents of deaf children with cochlear implants or with the cochlear implant community but lays squarely at the feet of those in the Deaf Community, such as Harlan Lane and the NAD, who sought to impose their agenda upon someone else's child and to attempt to deny the cochlear implant to children.

As someone who has experienced, both personally and to others I know, the offensive and mean spirited insults and labels from those in the Deaf community towards parents of ci children, cochlear implant professionals and most despicably, towards the children themselves it is hard to see how the "problem" is not one that was created and perpetuated by that small segment of the Deaf community itself.

Again, both personally and with respect to those I know and respect, I and/or they have been called Nazis, child abusers and told that we neither understand nor love our children. Interestingly, as this thread is about S&F there is a scene in the movie where a women refers to cochlear implanted children as "guinea pigs". That woman is not only someone who my wife and I know but someone whose hearing daughter attended the same public school as my deaf daughter. My wife would assist her and interpret for her at school functions but she lacked the personal integrity to say to my wife's face how she truly felt about our daughter and our decision as she used my wife to help her.

Another friend of ours watched as her daughter testified before Congress to have the cochlear implant for children move from the experiemental phrase to full FDA approval, two deaf adults sitting next to her sign to each other that her daughter would probably grow up and commit suicide! Again, tell me where the "root of the problem" lies? With marketing?

Please, as someone who lived through it and was viciously attacked along with our child by those in the Deaf Community who never met us or observed the relationship between us and our child, do not insult our intelligence nor use revisionist tactics to whitewash what did in fact happen by saying the "marketing" of the implant was the "root of the problem".

What is often overlooked in all of this is that for many of us, we had no personal experience with deafness before our children so when we initially approached the Deaf Community, we did so with a blank slate and thus, when attacked the way we were for making a decision we believed to be in our child's best interest, a divide was created. For many of us, we were fortunate to find others in the deaf community who were willing to accept the wonderful diversity that exists within the entire deaf community and have been proud to call those people friends and mentors. For those in the Deaf community who spew hate and bitterness, we have no use for them and they are not the people I would want around either my deaf daughter or my hearing daughter.
Rick
 
The medical and speech pathology community are just as responsible for the issues with their lack of respect for ASL and Deaf signers. The Deaf community is not solely responsible...both communities are responsible. Did we forget AGBell?

Nobody is perfect but not one community is fully responsible for all the problems.
 
shel90 said:
The medical and speech pathology community are just as responsible for the issues with their lack of respect for ASL and Deaf signers. The Deaf community is not solely responsible...both communities are responsible. Did we forget AGBell?

Nobody is perfect but not one community is fully responsible for all the problems.
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Not sure whether you just have an agenda to push or you just are too confused to understand the issues being discussed. My post is addressing the opinion of another that marketing of cis at the beginning was the "root of the problem".

I am responding with both personal experiences as well as the experiences of those who I personally know. I think a pretty fair reading of my post makes it clear that I am not talking about the entire Deaf community but one segment of it, which although a minority, had a powerful voice and role in the cochlear implant debate.

Why you choose to bring both the medical and speech pathology communities and of course, your obligatory bizarre reference to AGBell, into the issue of this "root of the problem" discussion demonstrates your continued inability to grasp the issues being discussed. I guess next we will all be treated to your yet again reference to your growing up.

Please explain to us how AGBell caused the NAD to offer for a sale a poster of a young girl with her head split open to show the internal components of her ci with a solitary tear running down her cheek under the caption of "Cochlear Implant, Not My Choice?"

What is your justification for those in the Deaf community who called my wife and I and other parents that we know "Nazis" and "child abusers"?

I know the scenario too well by now that you and your little cabal will now high jack this discussion into gang bash of AGBell and the medical community because it is what you do whenever the discussion does not flow the way you want it to.

You can outpost me all you want, I have a life to live, and not hours to spend here but the fact remains from one who lived through the issues at the heart of S&F that there was no marketing of the cochlear implant as a cure and no justification for the venom and hate that came from again, that small but influential segment of the Deaf community.
 
rick48 said:
Not sure whether you just have an agenda to push or you just are too confused to understand the issues being discussed. My post is addressing the opinion of another that marketing of cis at the beginning was the "root of the problem".

I am responding with both personal experiences as well as the experiences of those who I personally know. I think a pretty fair reading of my post makes it clear that I am not talking about the entire Deaf community but one segment of it, which although a minority, had a powerful voice and role in the cochlear implant debate.

Why you choose to bring both the medical and speech pathology communities and of course, your obligatory bizarre reference to AGBell, into the issue of this "root of the problem" discussion demonstrates your continued inability to grasp the issues being discussed. I guess next we will all be treated to your yet again reference to your growing up.

Please explain to us how AGBell caused the NAD to offer for a sale a poster of a young girl with her head split open to show the internal components of her ci with a solitary tear running down her cheek under the caption of "Cochlear Implant, Not My Choice?"

What is your justification for those in the Deaf community who called my wife and I and other parents that we know "Nazis" and "child abusers"?

I know the scenario too well by now that you and your little cabal will now high jack this discussion into gang bash of AGBell and the medical community because it is what you do whenever the discussion does not flow the way you want it to.

You can outpost me all you want, I have a life to live, and not hours to spend here but the fact remains from one who lived through the issues at the heart of S&F that there was no marketing of the cochlear implant as a cure and no justification for the venom and hate that came from again, that small but influential segment of the Deaf community.
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Like I said, both are responsible for the attitudes.

Nothing more and nothing less. I have stated in several posts that I dont blame u for feeling the way u do when some members in the Deaf community insulted u and I agree with u that's wrong but your post sounded like it was all the doings of the Deaf community. There is a reason for all these feelings, not that I justify it, hence why I brought up AGBell and his ideologies in which the foundation under his name adopted.

U can blast me all you want. I dont like AGBell and the medical community cuz I have seen too much negativity from them about ASL and Deaf culture.
 
rick48 said:
Not sure whether you just have an agenda to push or you just are too confused to understand the issues being discussed. My post is addressing the opinion of another that marketing of cis at the beginning was the "root of the problem".

I am responding with both personal experiences as well as the experiences of those who I personally know. I think a pretty fair reading of my post makes it clear that I am not talking about the entire Deaf community but one segment of it, which although a minority, had a powerful voice and role in the cochlear implant debate.

Why you choose to bring both the medical and speech pathology communities and of course, your obligatory bizarre reference to AGBell, into the issue of this "root of the problem" discussion demonstrates your continued inability to grasp the issues being discussed. I guess next we will all be treated to your yet again reference to your growing up.

The fact that you fail to see the connection is evidence of tunnel vision. And shel is as entitled to share her experiences as a deaf child growing up as you are to share your experience of being the parent of a CI implanted child. Objection to those experiences of deaf individuals is simply more evidence of your tunnel vision and disrespect for the deaf.

Please explain to us how AGBell caused the NAD to offer for a sale a poster of a young girl with her head split open to show the internal components of her ci with a solitary tear running down her cheek under the caption of "Cochlear Implant, Not My Choice?"

What is your justification for those in the Deaf community who called my wife and I and other parents that we know "Nazis" and "child abusers"?

My, but your bitterness is showing. Just can't let go of it, can you?

I know the scenario too well by now that you and your little cabal will now high jack this discussion into gang bash of AGBell and the medical community because it is what you do whenever the discussion does not flow the way you want it to.

Pot calling the kettle black, as is evidenced by this post.

You can outpost me all you want, I have a life to live, and not hours to spend here but the fact remains from one who lived through the issues at the heart of S&F that there was no marketing of the cochlear implant as a cure and no justification for the venom and hate that came from again, that small but influential segment of the Deaf community.
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Please...go live your life.
 
jillio said:
Please...go live your life.
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As usual the Pavlovian response, I have a life to live but apparently yours involves responding to virtually every one of my posts.



"And shel is as entitled to share her experiences as a deaf child growing up as you are to share your experience of being the parent of a CI implanted child."

Not questioning her right to share her experiences ad nauseum but rather the relevance of the experiences of a non-implanted person who was a child in the pre-implant era to a discussion in a cochlear implant forum and in particular whether marketing of the implant was the "root of the problem". Try and stay with us, if you can.

"more evidence of your tunnel vision and disrespect for the deaf."

And of course the obligatory cheap shot and insult. What you do not get is that the fact that I have no respect for you and shel has nothing to do with your ability to hear but rather how you treat those you do not subscribe to your narrow-minded agenda.


What is your justification for those in the Deaf community who called my wife and I and other parents that we know "Nazis" and "child abusers"?

"My, but your bitterness is showing. Just can't let go of it, can you?"

Interesting comment from a woman who still foams at the mouth about an individual, Alexander Graham Bell, who has been dead for almost 100 years! That you can find no fault with those who have spewed hateful and offensive comments at parents of cochlear implanted children and their children but rather you direct your invectives at the parents themselves tells us all we need to know about you and where your sympathies lie. Does the behavior I described of those who insulted and continue to insult cochlear implant parents and their children strike too close to home? Perhaps a nerve has been struck?

What is the over/under for your Pavlovian response?
 
Oh brother..:roll:
 
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rick48: You may have a deaf child, but you haven't got a damn clue about what it means to be Deaf/HoH and live in a hearing world. That much is blatantly obvious.
 
TheWriteAlex said:
rick48: You may have a deaf child, but you haven't got a damn clue about what it means to be Deaf/HoH and live in a hearing world. That much is blatantly obvious.
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Thank you for you insightful and in depth analysis. Where were you when we first found out our daughter was deaf? You would have been so helpful to us in our raising of our child. Our cluelessness resulted in a raising a child who is a college graduate, dean's list student on her way to graduate school but more importantly is a happy, well adjusted young women with a loving supportive family and large circle of hearing and deaf friends. Oh where did we go wrong and too bad we did not have the benefit of your oh so helpful analysis.

Have a good day and better luck next time with the armchair analysis.
Rick
 
shel90 said:
Geez again. :roll:
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Yeah...

Oh, those D/deaf children with CIs of hearing people are absolutely better than the D/deaf children with no CIs of hearing people! Whoo hoo hoo!

:roll: It's getting so tiresome...
 
rick48 said:
As usual the Pavlovian response, I have a life to live but apparently yours involves responding to virtually every one of my posts.



"And shel is as entitled to share her experiences as a deaf child growing up as you are to share your experience of being the parent of a CI implanted child."

Not questioning her right to share her experiences ad nauseum but rather the relevance of the experiences of a non-implanted person who was a child in the pre-implant era to a discussion in a cochlear implant forum and in particular whether marketing of the implant was the "root of the problem". Try and stay with us, if you can.

"more evidence of your tunnel vision and disrespect for the deaf."

And of course the obligatory cheap shot and insult. What you do not get is that the fact that I have no respect for you and shel has nothing to do with your ability to hear but rather how you treat those you do not subscribe to your narrow-minded agenda.


What is your justification for those in the Deaf community who called my wife and I and other parents that we know "Nazis" and "child abusers"?

"My, but your bitterness is showing. Just can't let go of it, can you?"

Interesting comment from a woman who still foams at the mouth about an individual, Alexander Graham Bell, who has been dead for almost 100 years! That you can find no fault with those who have spewed hateful and offensive comments at parents of cochlear implanted children and their children but rather you direct your invectives at the parents themselves tells us all we need to know about you and where your sympathies lie. Does the behavior I described of those who insulted and continue to insult cochlear implant parents and their children strike too close to home? Perhaps a nerve has been struck?

What is the over/under for your Pavlovian response?
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You might want to check what a Pavlovian response is. Your contextual use is incorrect. Especially given the way you respond to any suggestion that children with hearing loss, implanted or not, are unable to access 100% of the auditory information in their environments, and to do so, need visual access.:roll:

I'd say, then, as now, people responded not so much to your daughter's implant, but to your off putting attitude. People continue to respond to such, and your daughter isn't part of the equation. The common variable is your nastiness and your attitude of superiority toward the deaf, most especially deaf that disagree with your A.G. Bell oral only stance.

How long ago did your so called rejection from the Deaf community occur, rick? Twenty years ago? Let go of it. Obviously, it is something you need to deal with, because you have been taking it out on Deaf that had absolutely nothing to do with it for over 20 years now. Obviously, you are still attempting to find that acceptance you were denied over 20 years ago. Unfortunately, you are going about it the wrong way.

Its mutual. The respect level for you isn't exactly high around here, either. Yet you continue to return, again and again and again, just to insult and attempt to bully. Definately something pathological going on there in that behavior.

This is a deaf message board. This is where the deaf share their experiences and connect with each other. This is where people come to attempt to gain an understanding of that deaf experience. Therefore, any deaf that chooses to share their experience, no matter how oft repeated, is entitled to do, and that sharing is appreciated my many. If you are tired of reading it, there is a simple soulution. Don't visit here.

You continually tell us how your life is so full and rich and busy and rewarding...all without the deaf/Deaf community. You continually tell us that you don't have the time or the inclination to deal with us inferiors. Again, go live that life. Evidently that life is missing something that you still want, and are still being denied...acceptance from the Deaf community. At the rate you are going, that acceptance will be a long time coming.
 
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rick48 said:
Thank you for you insightful and in depth analysis. Where were you when we first found out our daughter was deaf? You would have been so helpful to us in our raising of our child. Our cluelessness resulted in a raising a child who is a college graduate, dean's list student on her way to graduate school but more importantly is a happy, well adjusted young women with a loving supportive family and large circle of hearing and deaf friends. Oh where did we go wrong and too bad we did not have the benefit of your oh so helpful analysis.

Have a good day and better luck next time with the armchair analysis.
Rick
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Yes, it really is too bad that you didn't have the support of the Deaf community. Even more unfortunate that it is the result of your nasty attitude.
 
jillio said:
You might want to check what a Pavlovian response is. Your contextual use is incorrect. Especially given the way you respond to any suggestion that children with hearing loss, implanted or not, are unable to access 100% of the auditory information in their environments, and to do so, need visual access.:roll:

I'd say, then, as now, people responded not so much to your daughter's implant, but to your off putting attitude. People continue to respond to such, and your daughter isn't part of the equation. The common variable is your nastiness and your attitude of superiority toward the deaf, most especialy deaf that disagree with your A.G. Bell oral only stance.

How long ago did your so called rejection from the Deaf community occur, rick? Twenty years ago? Let go of it. Obviously, it is something you need to deal with, because you have been taking it out on Deaf that had absolutely nothing to do with it for over 20 years now. Obviously, you are still attempting to find that acceptance you were denied over 20 years ago. Unfortunately, you are going about it the wrong way.

Its mutual. The respect level for you isn't exactly high around here, either. Yet you continue to return, again and again and again, just to insult and attempt to bully. Definately something pathological going on there in that behavior.

This is a deaf message board. This is where the deaf share their experiences and connect with each other. This is where people come to attempt to gain an understanding of that deaf experience. Therefore, any deaf that chooses to share their experience, no matter how oft repeated, is entitled to do, and that sharing is appreciated my many. If you are tired of reading it, there is a simple soulution. Don't visit here.

You continually tell us how your life is so full and rich and busy and rewarding...all without the deaf/Deaf community. You continually tell us that you don't have the time or the inclination to deal with us inferiors. Again, go live that life. Evidently that life is missing something that you still want, and are still being denied...acceptance from the Deaf community. At the rate you are going, that acceptance will be a long time coming.
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AD is really the only place I can truly express how I feel about the views that I disagree with. It is like a safe haven for me and it should be for everyone else who comes in here. :)
 
shel90 said:
AD is really the only place I can truly express how I feel about the views that I disagree with. It is like a safe haven for me and it should be for everyone else who comes in here. :)
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And it should be a safe haven for any deaf that chooses to be here. It is unbelievably self serving for any hearing person to attempt to take that safe haven away.
 
jillio said:
And it should be a safe haven for any deaf that chooses to be here. It is unbelievably self serving for any hearing person to attempt to take that safe haven away.
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Yes it is.
 
jillio said:
And it should be a safe haven for any deaf that chooses to be here. It is unbelievably self serving for any hearing person to attempt to take that safe haven away.
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Only if nobody puts others down. We all have different views. :D

I dont like the ideology behind the AGBell Association and the views the medical community has on ASL and Deaf culture. They havent done anything positive for me and for many others unless we conform to their mold. If anyone has a problem with diversity, it is those organizations who hold these views against ASL.
 
shel90 said:
Only if nobody puts others down. We all have different views. :D

I dont like the ideology behind the AGBell Association and the views the medical community has on ASL and Deaf culture. They havent done anything positive for me and for many others unless we conform to their mold. If anyone has a problem with diversity, it is those organizations who hold these views against ASL.
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Agreed.
 
shel90 said:
Only if nobody puts others down. We all have different views. :D

I dont like the ideology behind the AGBell Association and the views the medical community has on ASL and Deaf culture. They havent done anything positive for me and for many others unless we conform to their mold. If anyone has a problem with diversity, it is those organizations who hold these views against ASL.
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Exactly, that what my husband's mention. He said AGBell didn't believe in Deaf and ASL. He thought AGBell is weird. Ohh well we can't change it in past. We are in 21 century now.
 
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