Sighs! Read this !

[rockdrummer]

YES. Not all deaf people can learn to read lips perfectly. It depends on the person and the speaker. That is why I get so mad when people keep going on and on and on about how oralism is the "perfect solution". What's wrong with signing and writing?

What's wrong with a person choosing what works best for them individually. If oralism works for someone then then can use it and they have the right to share their positive experiences. Same applies to other methods. The wrong thing to do is to say that any single method is best. Nobody can do that because each person will have different experiences with the various methods. A good stance is to say try them all and pick what works best for you.

 

[gnulinuxman]

What's wrong with a person choosing what works best for them individually. If oralism works for someone then then can use it and they have the right to share their positive experiences. Same applies to other methods. The wrong thing to do is to say that any single method is best. Nobody can do that because each person will have different experiences with the various methods. A good stance is to say try them all and pick what works best for you.

Methinks you need to reread my post.

 

[jazzy]

What's wrong with a person choosing what works best for them individually. If oralism works for someone then then can use it and they have the right to share their positive experiences. Same applies to other methods. The wrong thing to do is to say that any single method is best. Nobody can do that because each person will have different experiences with the various methods. A good stance is to say try them all and pick what works best for you.

Full of BS, we did not choose it but we were forced to do it for u and our parents because they think we can learn to read lips and speak well alike few who were successful deaf oralist. Another misguide and fool many parents to believe their child can learn and do well alike them. In other words their parents are in denied that their deaf child is D E A F. And many of them did not know it can led their child into have life long emotion screw up that need some help with professional mental health care. I have seen too many sad stories around me. Enough to spread another lies by their deaf oralists who refuse to sign but isolate themselves from both world, hearing and deaf. They are not 100 percent independent.

 

[jazzy]

YES. Not all deaf people can learn to read lips perfectly. It depends on the person and the speaker. That is why I get so mad when people keep going on and on and on about how oralism is the "perfect solution".

What's wrong with signing and writing?

Me too, I am fed up with them for lying to us about it.

Think about it, can u draw a picture perfect? I am not that great at drawing. It goes same with people who happened to have gifts in art, sports, music, etc.. Think about it , only few deafies who happen to have those gifts in learn how to read lips and speak well (not perfect), only handful of them. It made me mad when they said we can learn and speak well. I went to oral school for few years, remember one year of child abuse in that classroom and I could not go to my mommy and tell her what was happen in that classroom because I did not have that language develop yet. They teach us how to talk and read their lips more than learn in classroom to do math, writing, science, etc.. Delay me for few years and now it is too late. I am still far behind in hearing world.

When I finally learned sign language, it freed me from anger and isolated. I can not believe them, they try to tell us about how wonderful oralism is. What a lie.

I love sign language and many people are so fanastic with sign language. I have meet so many people out there who sign to me everyday. They love it and eager to talk to me.

Yes I agree there is nothing wrong with writing paper and sign language. U know it is easy for me to use hand gesture to spanish speaking customers (about 50 percents) in my community than me trying speak english to them cuz they do not understand english.

 

[Maria]

I grew up to be independent. I communicate with hearin' people by writin' or typin' thru computer ( email ). I noticed that sometimes hearin' people don't like to write. Some of them have noo patient and forced me to read their lips like if, they are talkin' to me without writin'. Gee - I have to keep sayin' that " I can't hear " with my finger pointin' to my right ear. I was thinkin' to myself .. " well, if they don't like to write, then how come they have this job ? "

It applies to many jobs and, they will question deaf persons if, they can read their lips. Why is it soo important to read their lips, if a deaf person can't read their lips to understand ? If, the hearin' people want the deaf person to understand, then WRITE. A deaf person should ask a hearin' person, if they can READ hand in sign language. That's what I ask them so many times when they ask me about lipreadin'. :roll:

 

[rockdrummer]

Methinks you need to reread my post.

No need. I read it and understand it perfectly. Let me try to clearify. My point was based on your comment

That is why I get so mad when people keep going on and on and on about how oralism is the "perfect solution".

For those people that say it's a perfect solution it probably is for them which is why I said

If oralism works for someone then they can use it and they have the right to share their positive experiences

I am not sure (even after re-reading your post) where the mis-understanding is. Care to elaborate?

 

[rockdrummer]

Full of BS, we did not choose it but we were forced to do it for u and our parents because they think we can learn to read lips and speak well alike few who were successful deaf oralist. Another misguide and fool many parents to believe their child can learn and do well alike them. In other words their parents are in denied that their deaf child is D E A F. And many of them did not know it can led their child into have life long emotion screw up that need some help with professional mental health care. I have seen too many sad stories around me. Enough to spread another lies by their deaf oralists who refuse to sign but isolate themselves from both world, hearing and deaf. They are not 100 percent independent.

I am sorry Jazzy, I was not talking about anybody that was forced to do anything. I said "what's wrong with a person choosing what is best for them". As far as forcing someone to learn something I am not getting a clear picture of what you mean. Were you tied to a chair with toothpicks in your eyes to keep them open? Or is this just much like the education I attended? I don't quite understand. I was sent to school as a child and I had no choice on what I was going to be taught or how it was taught. In your view, was I forced. I am just curious about your thoughts on that. I will say that if you were forced by some sort of physical abuse, then that is wrong! I hope that was not the case for you. Lets say this is a perfect world and you are the one that can choose how a deaf child will be taught. What would you do? How would you teach the child to communicate and with what methods?
Thank you!!

 

[SxyPorkie]

I am sorry Jazzy, I was not talking about anybody that was forced to do anything. I said "what's wrong with a person choosing what is best for them". As far as forcing someone to learn something I am not getting a clear picture of what you mean. Were you tied to a chair with toothpicks in your eyes to keep them open? Or is this just much like the education I attended? I don't quite understand. I was sent to school as a child and I had no choice on what I was going to be taught or how it was taught. In your view, was I forced. I am just curious about your thoughts on that. I will say that if you were forced by some sort of physical abuse, then that is wrong! I hope that was not the case for you. Lets say this is a perfect world and you are the one that can choose how a deaf child will be taught. What would you do? How would you teach the child to communicate and with what methods?
Thank you!!

Jazzy was right... i had met lots of oral deaf.. they were forced to read lips and speak .. no sign langauges were allowed!!

all of my friends who are oral deaf were very bitter... they finally learn the sign language,,, they are happier than ever,,, but they are bitter at their parents,, doctors,,, teachers,,,, they learned about educations real late.. they must learn to read lip and speak firstly...

I can understand Jazzy going through this BS...

Thanks.
SxyPorkie

 

[loml]

Jazzy was right... i had met lots of oral deaf.. they were forced to read lips and speak .. no sign langauges were allowed!!

all of my friends who are oral deaf were very bitter... they finally learn the sign language,,, they are happier than ever,,, but they are bitter at their parents,, doctors,,, teachers,,,, they learned about educations real late.. they must learn to read lip and speak firstly...

I can understand Jazzy going through this BS...

Thanks.
SxyPorkie

SxyPorkie,

That was then.... this is now. I am sure at the time parents did what the "professionals" said was the "right" appraoch to use. ASL is an awesome communication tool, but rarely alone makes for literacy in English.

Children must have all the tools they need. Parents are not told all the options available to them, at least not in my area. Professioals who have spent their lives working with "oral" education are not likely to change their ways now. I know a few who I would surely love to see retire.

I believe that if communication, language and inclusion could happen quickly for doh children, the stress level in the home would drop.

 

[ismi]

all of my friends who are oral deaf were very bitter... they finally learn the sign language,,, they are happier than ever,,, but they are bitter at their parents,, doctors,,, teachers,,,, they learned about educations real late.. they must learn to read lip and speak firstly...

And my experience is quite different - most of the oral deaf I know are quite happy with the oral training they got, and many of them are only now learning to sign (and that as a hobby, not as an intended primary mode of communication). The plural of anecdote is not data.

 

[SxyPorkie]

SxyPorkie,

That was then.... this is now. I am sure at the time parents did what the "professionals" said was the "right" appraoch to use. ASL is an awesome communication tool, but rarely alone makes for literacy in English.

Children must have all the tools they need. Parents are not told all the options available to them, at least not in my area. Professioals who have spent their lives working with "oral" education are not likely to change their ways now. I know a few who I would surely love to see retire.

I believe that if communication, language and inclusion could happen quickly for doh children, the stress level in the home would drop.

It is not really oral deafies s fault... yes it was their heaing parents and also their doctors... all of my oral deafies told me that they were not allowed to learn ASL,,,

What more.. my daughter was an interpreter at elemetary schools ... she told me that most of deaf children's parents did not want their children to learn the sign langauges at all.. the parents wanted them to learn to speak,, no sign langauges allowed!!

It is still going on in the elementary schools with deaf children.. their parents are still against ASL. they expect that their children only can learn to speak...

Thanks!!
SxyPorkie

 

[jillio]

If there is an audist attitude here it is YOU!

SEE is used as a tool to improve literacy skills, skills sorely lacking with ASL.

I find this very bazzar.... why is it that you wish future generations of deaf/hoh continue to be dependant on other people to communicate effective with non-ASLers?

Maybe should't comment, but will. SEE is not used to promote literacy skills. It is the hearing world's invention, because of such trouble to learn ASL. First tried Oralsim--did not work! Then come up with SEE. cued speech, all other ways to make English visable. English is not manual language. It is different language. Use ASL to teach Eglish, then literacy improves. When Deaf schools used ASL to teach English, Deaf students much more educated. You wouldn't change Spanish to teach English to Spanish people.
Why change ASL just to teach English? SEE, Pidgin, all other forms of English sign are inventions of the hearing world and the hearing world's attempt to tell Deaf how they are supposed to be, and what language they are supposed to use. And, by the way--I'm hearing. I went into Deaf community when my son was 2 years old, and said, please teach me your language so I can communicate with my son. Please show him what it is to be a Deaf adult. My son went to Deaf school with Deaf teachers. Because that is as much his family as I am. That is what he needs to be happy with himself. I am still learning much about ASL and Deaf communtiy after 18 years. But what they have taught me is much more valuable than anything the hearing 'experts" tried to tell me my son needed. And by the way, Sweetmind--love your signature. So true!

 

[Sweetmind]

Maybe should't comment, but will. SEE is not used to promote literacy skills. It is the hearing world's invention, because of such trouble to learn ASL. First tried Oralsim--did not work! Then come up with SEE. cued speech, all other ways to make English visable. English is not manual language. It is different language. Use ASL to teach Eglish, then literacy improves. When Deaf schools used ASL to teach English, Deaf students much more educated. You wouldn't change Spanish to teach English to Spanish people.
Why change ASL just to teach English? SEE, Pidgin, all other forms of English sign are inventions of the hearing world and the hearing world's attempt to tell Deaf how they are supposed to be, and what language they are supposed to use. And, by the way--I'm hearing. I went into Deaf community when my son was 2 years old, and said, please teach me your language so I can communicate with my son. Please show him what it is to be a Deaf adult. My son went to Deaf school with Deaf teachers. Because that is as much his family as I am. That is what he needs to be happy with himself. I am still learning much about ASL and Deaf communtiy after 18 years. But what they have taught me is much more valuable than anything the hearing 'experts" tried to tell me my son needed. And by the way, Sweetmind--love your signature. So true!

I definitely agree with ya and thank you for the compliment about my signature. I can see you understood what it s really means. I m so glad you did it for your deaf child's rights with all your heart. That real makes my day.

I thank you for your sharing with us all along. It s good to hear from someone like you as a hearing parent.

Have a wonderful day!

Sweetmind

 

[SxyPorkie]

I definitely agree with ya and thank you for the compliment about my signature. I can see you understood what it s really means. I m so glad you did it for your deaf child's rights with all your heart. That real makes my day.

I thank you for your sharing with us all along. It s good to hear from someone like you as a hearing parent.

Have a wonderful day!

Sweetmind

WHOO HOO!!!!

Finally got someone who understand what ASL means...SEE langauges suxs

Thanks!!

SxyPorkie

 

[loml]

loml

why is it that you wish future generations of deaf/hoh continue to be dependant on other people to communicate effective with non-ASLers?

Yet another question that goes unanswered.

 

[loml]

Maybe should't comment, but will. SEE is not used to promote literacy skills. It is the hearing world's invention, because of such trouble to learn ASL. First tried Oralsim--did not work! Then come up with SEE. cued speech, all other ways to make English visable. English is not manual language. It is different language. Use ASL to teach Eglish, then literacy improves. When Deaf schools used ASL to teach English, Deaf students much more educated. You wouldn't change Spanish to teach English to Spanish people.
Why change ASL just to teach English? SEE, Pidgin, all other forms of English sign are inventions of the hearing world and the hearing world's attempt to tell Deaf how they are supposed to be, and what language they are supposed to use. And, by the way--I'm hearing. I went into Deaf community when my son was 2 years old, and said, please teach me your language so I can communicate with my son. Please show him what it is to be a Deaf adult. My son went to Deaf school with Deaf teachers. Because that is as much his family as I am. That is what he needs to be happy with himself. I am still learning much about ASL and Deaf communtiy after 18 years. But what they have taught me is much more valuable than anything the hearing 'experts" tried to tell me my son needed. And by the way, Sweetmind--love your signature. So true!

How very grandiloquent.

 

[Mookie]

How very grandiloquent.

How do you know? Don't you have your own kid?

 

[jillio]

loml

Yet another question that goes unanswered.

I don't wish future generations to be dependant. I want them to be independant, just as hearing are independant. To do that, they must have language skills. LANGUAGE, NOT SPOKEN LANGUAGE< NOT VERBAL LANGUAGE!
All studies show that deaf kids of deaf parents perform better in school and also socially. Why? Because they developed LANGUAGE early and naturally through parents use of ASL. Who does worse in school and socially? Deaf kis, hearing parents. Why? NO LANGUAGE! Try to force to use spoken language. Parents refuse to learn ASL. Kids are language delayed, and it affects their abilities to think, to judge their world, to make friends, to develop an identity and be happy with who they are, to be proud of themselve, to feel a part of something.

You seem to think that VERBAL is better than SIGN. Not true. Both are equal. But verbal language is for hearing people, and sign is for Deaf people. That is why deaf children who are never exposed to ASL will make up home signs. It is their natural language.

I personally find ASL to be a beautiful expressive language. There are some things I can say in ASL that I can't say in English, because they look right in ASL, but don't sound right in English. My point is, language is necessary for independance. Not English, but language.

 

[Sweetmind]

I don't wish future generations to be dependant. I want them to be independant, just as hearing are independant. To do that, they must have language skills. LANGUAGE, NOT SPOKEN LANGUAGE< NOT VERBAL LANGUAGE!
All studies show that deaf kids of deaf parents perform better in school and also socially. Why? Because they developed LANGUAGE early and naturally through parents use of ASL. Who does worse in school and socially? Deaf kis, hearing parents. Why? NO LANGUAGE! Try to force to use spoken language. Parents refuse to learn ASL. Kids are language delayed, and it affects their abilities to think, to judge their world, to make friends, to develop an identity and be happy with who they are, to be proud of themselve, to feel a part of something.

You seem to think that VERBAL is better than SIGN. Not true. Both are equal. But verbal language is for hearing people, and sign is for Deaf people. That is why deaf children who are never exposed to ASL will make up home signs. It is their natural language.

I personally find ASL to be a beautiful expressive language. There are some things I can say in ASL that I can't say in English, because they look right in ASL, but don't sound right in English. My point is, language is necessary for independance. Not English, but language.

Thank you, Jillo for standing up for us and our Deaf rights. Jillo got that right spot to answer it. It s totally waste of my time to deal with this person that I ignored all the way because of her bigotry audist attitude that I m tired of this BS. I have said it too many times that we can do anything except hear.

Deaf children need a true language that would be ASL from the start. It s so beautiful language that helps us to understand the body language, facial expression, and emotion tones. It s our visualization that we are depending on all the time that no one can stop us from our true adapations and have no problem with it. It s more freedom to independent that s what I m trying to say.

We have no problem with our hearing children that we respect very much and taught them in ASL that works so well. It helps them to use that skills and focus with their receptive eyes to have a good speller, reading, and writing. Too many parents are making their excuses for not able to adapt themselves and face the Deaf reality that they need to respect Deaf child s rights. No more abusive toward Deaf children that they want us to speak and hear only that is not a very positive reinforcement toward Deaf children s lives. It s so sad it s still exists today. It s not for hearing parents or hearing people's sake only. It s for Deaf children's sake and their important needs to have that intellectual and social motor skills. Oral rules is not the winner anyhow.

I am so glad Jillo has very good positive attitude and reinforced into the positve outlook about Deaf children s true identity and true language. I wish there are many parents like her out there.

I want to give my warm to Jillo, I would love to meet her in person that I respect so much.




Sweetmind

 

[loml]

That is the way it is.......

How do you know? Don't you have your own kid?

Mookie,

That is the way the interent works. The "tone" I hear in jillios' first post is, for me, grandiloquent.

Children or no children, has no bearing for me.