Respect for all

Jackie - While you're the mom, and you made the choice to raise your children that way. Good for you. I never said that I'm against the way you're raising your children. I am against the fact that you put down people who are against it. They have their reasons, good or bad. You favor oral education. If some parents come to this forum and wants to know about oral education. You give them the resources they need, but DO NOT ever say, "ORAL EDUCATION IS THE BOMB! YOU BETTER DO IT! DEAF PEOPLE ARE MORE SUCCESSFUL BEING ORALISTS!".

I would never say that oral education is the bomb. What I would say if a child is young enough and the parents can make changes in their lives then oral education could work. It will not work in every situation but it could. I do not believe that oral deaf people are more successful. What I believe is that if a deaf child is oral, the child could have more opportunities because they would be able to go into the hearing community and not rely on an interpeter or writing notes to get their point across. Also in my area the TC programs are functioning about 2 to 5 years below the grade level and this is not what I wanted for my children. Maybe other areas they have different programs for TC/bibi kids but not in my area.

You'll scare them off. Instead, just tell them that what oral education is. History of oralism, success stories, failure stories (can't always be successful in oral education can there?).

This is what I do, I tell parents about oral education. I really don't tell them about the success because 100% of the parents that come to me have heard about my children. I do tell them about the failures and how some of the failures we know why and some we do not know. I do tell them about TC and cued speech because this is what we have kind of close by. I do tell them some of success stories with both methods. Since being on this board I will tell parents that there is a bibi program but we do not offer in CA. I tell them about the cochlear succcess and failures and the different levels a child can reach.

I personally see there has been a lot of changes in education for the deaf, because there's a lot more options out there. Towns are allowing mainstreaming with interpreters in classrooms. Schools are realizing that the English language skills really needed to be focused on in these schools (sadly, a little too late for most). ADA laws has been in effect for a while, and it *will* take a LONG while before EVERYONE is EDUCATED about the law. 20 years from now, there will be deaf people still going to oral schools. There will be deaf people still be going to a bi-bi/TC environment schools. There will probably be a big improvement in English skills among deaf students. Deaf Culture will always be there regardless what some people think. BUT - I believe that there will be hearing people all over having SOME type of grasp about deaf people. Why? E-D-U-C-A-T-I-O-N.


And I agree with you. And I think you should seek out how to get on one of those board of education. Or at least go to every board meeting and tell them your thoughts.


Ahh. what a relief. I'm ready for the bashings. :)

You might think you have bashed me but I did not take it that way. I respect and valuable what deaf adults think and what they have been through. You are not going to change what I do for a living but you will affect my thoughts. Thank you
 
Buffalo said:
How the parents are going to get the viewpoints from the Deaf people if all they are doing is listening to the doctors/hearing educators of the deaf? That is why I am very impressed with Jillio for seeking out the Deaf community when her son was small but how many parents have done that? Too few.
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But it is because of people like Jillo that scare us parents off. I am not sure about other ENTs and audiologist but I know that our center is not hard core oral. My kids audiologist signs quite fluently. And if the Deaf community wants to influence us parents they need to not push us so hard and try to understand what we are going through.
 
vallee said:
Our school boards here are elected. So you would have to run for election. You just qualify for election. School boards are not the ones with any "power." The are limited by the state and local government. About all deaf boards, I am against segratation. I am against complete segratation. From what I read in blogs about the number of deaf teachers in deaf schools the number is not even a majority.

I am a teacher and I do push my students to the max. I have former students in college and in great jobs. They turned out to be great adults.

If you want to get involve in improving education, you can apply for a position on advisory boards with the state government. I am asked to be part of the Council for Special Education in our state government. It is an appointed position.

My stomach turned flips each time I read how you separate children/groups into races and religion, I just don't believe in it.
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GOOD POST, Why do we have to create separate groups. Growing up in southern CA we have lots lots of Hispanics. As I mention before my mother is Mexican and my father was from Europe. I look more like my father. I would hate when I was with my mom and people would make comments about my mother. My mom has a bit of accent and the minute people heard it they treated her like a second class citizens. Or would start talking to her like she couldn't understand. What they failed to understand is that my mom is a college educated woman. Right away where I am from people assume if you are Hispanic then you are not educated.
 
shel90 said:
Yes, when I became fluent in ASL, I became an ASL extremist for a few years, refusing to use my voice, refusing to interact with anyone who didnt sign, and refusing to use my hearing aids cuz I was shocked that with ASL, I had full access to communication when I never had before. I felt very hurt because I suffered when there was no reason for it so yea, that pissedme off. Eventually, I started to miss my HAs so I am not so much of an extremist anymore cuz I realize the value of oral skills but going back to oral only full time, NEVER AGAIN!!!!

If there was no oral deaf education or that idealogy of denying deaf children sign language when they are young, maybe there wouldnt be this division within the Deaf community. We would never know.

Many Deaf people who reject oralist usually have a valid reason...

I really get what you are saying and why you feel the way you do. Times have changed and if an implant is successful people with profound hearing losses will not have such a hard time. In our case, the minute I didn't oral was working I would have switch my kids over and learn ASL with them. That's the difference between your mom and me. I always had it in the back of my head if oral was going to work then we would have switched over. And for the first 3 years of our journey, I was always asking the teachers so where she should be and is it time to introduce signs. /COLOR]

they had suffered under that philosophy but there is no reason for hearing parents to reject having their children interact with the Deaf community.
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I cannot speak for all parents but in our case, I knew what the Deaf community felt about parents like me because I did my research so I was not going allowed the Deaf community to treat my children badly for the decisions I made. Nor was I going to let them treat me badly because I made informed decisions.
 
Buffalo said:
I would once I know how one gets on the school board. Is the appointment by invitation only? Can anyone volunteer for the board? What are the requirements before one can get onboard? I have asked this kind of questions before but didn't get my answers. Vallee, can you please answer those questions?

The reason I believe that there should be all-deaf school board is because of the ethnocentricity of the hearing people. Deaf people (especially teachers of the deaf) do want the best for the deaf kids.

I have read about how Jewish people get good education because they ran their own schools in USA. African Americans didn't have their own schools so they get a bum education, especially in the urban cities. Ditto for Hispanics. We should run the education. I know if I am a teacher, I would be pushing them to the maximum.[/QUOTE]

LOL, that's one of the things I liked about St. Rita! In the public school, my son quickly learned he copuld get away with not doing his best by saying things like, "I didn't understand." Rather than taking time to make sure he understood, they would let him get by with doing sub-par work. At St. Rita, he tried that only once. They told him "We don't play that here. We're deaf, too. If you don't understand, ask questions. No excuses for not doing your best work!"
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vallee said:
It seemed my voice has changed completely. I mean it is so different since I got my CIs that it is the first comment I hear. I asked others why they did not tell me. I was embrassed to find out about my voice. They said, it was a part of me that they just accepted. To me that is the highest form of friendship.
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As an adult, I would agree with you. That attitude does communicate acceptance. However, for the oral teachers to convince a child that they are speaking so well that everyone can understand them sets them up for failure when they get out of that protected atmosphere and discover the truth. To and adult, being told they speak well simply means that they can be understood. To a child, it means, "You sound just like the hearing kids." Buffalo has some very valid points. We have to be realistic about what our deaf children will face as adults. To allow them to believe that they have been given adequate skills--academic, speech, social--to be able to automatically fit right in, and that their deafness will not be noticed, is harmful to these children. I see students coming into college on a daily basis that were told that they, as deaf students in a mainstream environment, were provided an education that would allow them to enter college with the same skills as their hearing peers. Unfortunatley, the reality is, these kids were simply given A's and B's for trying to do the best they could with what they were able to get, and they are angry and hurt that they were lied to and that they were just passed through the system being led to believe that
they were competing with their hearing peers on equal footing. It would appear from what I see, that the mainstream finds it much easier to adopt different standards for grading than to fully address the needs of deaf students. It creates the appearance that these students are receiving equal access in the mainstream, but the reality is that they are not. The students I see are bright, capable, and motivated. They want to learn. They want an education. They don't have sub-par skills because they are deaf. They have sub-par skills because the mainstream has failed them.
 
Buffalo said:
How the parents are going to get the viewpoints from the Deaf people if all they are doing is listening to the doctors/hearing educators of the deaf? That is why I am very impressed with Jillio for seeking out the Deaf community when her son was small but how many parents have done that? Too few.
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:ty: Buffalo. What I learned has benefitted my son, and I hope that it will continue to benefit other deaf children, as well.
 
vallee said:
Our school boards here are elected. So you would have to run for election. You just qualify for election. School boards are not the ones with any "power." The are limited by the state and local government. About all deaf boards, I am against segratation. I am against complete segratation. From what I read in blogs about the number of deaf teachers in deaf schools the number is not even a majority.

I am a teacher and I do push my students to the max. I have former students in college and in great jobs. They turned out to be great adults.

If you want to get involve in improving education, you can apply for a position on advisory boards with the state government. I am asked to be part of the Council for Special Education in our state government. It is an appointed position.

My stomach turned flips each time I read how you separate children/groups into races and religion, I just don't believe in it.
Click to expand...

To say that school boards have no power is naive. I'm sorry, vallee, but it is. School boards have far too much power to influence what goes on in a classroom and a school district.

We are not talking about segregation. We are talking about leadership. Leadership for the deaf by the deaf. Right back to the phrase, "Nothing for us without us."

Buffalo didn't create Hebrew schools....the Jewish people did. "Nothing for us without us." They took the responsibility to insure that their children received the best education possible by creating schools that incorportate a Bi-Bi philosophy.

Buffalo isn't responsible for the African American move toward a more Bi-Bi approach to educating their children through charter schools that include accurate Black history, and creates an environment for children to develop a success identity rather than the failure identity they are being given in public schools. The African American community has seen where their children are being neglected by the public school system and have taken the steps to create charter schools to address the needs of the students that the public school is not addresssing.

Proponents of mainstreaming want to talk about integration and assimilation, but that is all they do. Simply placing a child in an integrated classroom does not create equal access. That holds true with a child with any difference from the white, middle class, non-dsabled population. Until the public schools address the needs of all students, mainstreaming serves only to further segregate. Its all fine and well to rest on our laurels, and say, look....we have all sorts of kids in our school, aren't we progressive and tolerant!" but what do we do when those kids exit 12 years of formal education with no skills to integrate into mainstream society after school?

We can sit back and consider ourselves to be progressive because we have abolished laws that prevent African American people from eating in the same restaurant that the whites eat in. But if we don't provide them with the education necessary to earn enough money at a job to afford to eat in that restaurant, have we really accomplished anything more than superficially salving our own conscious? That is the reality, my friend.
 
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jackiesolorzano said:
Jillo let me understand all of this correctly. You are putting me in the same catorgery as educators and parents that would never allow their child to be around deaf children that do no have any oral skills. Or those oralist that would never allow their child to learn sign language. As you said there are no differen forms of oralism.
Please explain how I allowed my daughter to do to her first prom with a young man that has no oral skills. Or how I allow so many deaf teenagers in my home that do not have any oral skiils.
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You place a priority on speech over sign, jackie. That makes you an oralist by definition. Making minor, superficial concessions does not change anything.

Allowing your daughter to date an African American man would make you appear to be less racist. But it is an appearance only, if you still hold the attititude that to be white offers you greater priviledge simply by virtue of your birth. The same with deafness. Your comments speak for themselves.
 
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jackiesolorzano said:
But it is because of people like Jillo that scare us parents off. I am not sure about other ENTs and audiologist but I know that our center is not hard core oral. My kids audiologist signs quite fluently. And if the Deaf community wants to influence us parents they need to not push us so hard and try to understand what we are going through.
Click to expand...


And, if parents want to learn, they need to listen to what the deaf community is saying to them. That is where the problem lies. Deaf people are speaking to you, but you are not listening.

Funny...I work with parents of deaf children all the time. None of them are scared of me. Your accusations that I scare hearing parents off is absurd. It is just another childish way that you attempt to deflect the fact that the deaf community is speaking to you, and you are not listening. Everytime a deaf individual agrees with me in this forum, you start making comments like that. Stop trying to justify yourself to the deaf people that are telling you what you should know, stop being so defensive, and listen.
 
jackiesolorzano said:
GOOD POST, Why do we have to create separate groups. Growing up in southern CA we have lots lots of Hispanics. As I mention before my mother is Mexican and my father was from Europe. I look more like my father. I would hate when I was with my mom and people would make comments about my mother. My mom has a bit of accent and the minute people heard it they treated her like a second class citizens. Or would start talking to her like she couldn't understand. What they failed to understand is that my mom is a college educated woman. Right away where I am from people assume if you are Hispanic then you are not educated.
Click to expand...

And people are still applying the same stereotypes to signing deaf. In fact, I have seen you do it in your posts. Maybe that experience is what is responsible for your idea that to appear to be more like the majority will afford greater priviledge. How about working to change the stereoptypes instead of working so hard to conform?
 
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shel90 said:
Yes, when I became fluent in ASL, I became an ASL extremist for a few years, refusing to use my voice, refusing to interact with anyone who didnt sign, and refusing to use my hearing aids cuz I was shocked that with ASL, I had full access to communication when I never had before. I felt very hurt because I suffered when there was no reason for it so yea, that pissedme off. Eventually, I started to miss my HAs so I am not so much of an extremist anymore cuz I realize the value of oral skills but going back to oral only full time, NEVER AGAIN!!!!

If there was no oral deaf education or that idealogy of denying deaf children sign language when they are young, maybe there wouldnt be this division within the Deaf community. We would never know.

Many Deaf people who reject oralist usually have a valid reason...they had suffered under that philosophy but there is no reason for hearing parents to reject having their children interact with the Deaf community.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
jackiesolorzano said:
Jackie - While you're the mom, and you made the choice to raise your children that way. Good for you. I never said that I'm against the way you're raising your children. I am against the fact that you put down people who are against it. They have their reasons, good or bad. You favor oral education. If some parents come to this forum and wants to know about oral education. You give them the resources they need, but DO NOT ever say, "ORAL EDUCATION IS THE BOMB! YOU BETTER DO IT! DEAF PEOPLE ARE MORE SUCCESSFUL BEING ORALISTS!".

I would never say that oral education is the bomb. What I would say if a child is young enough and the parents can make changes in their lives then oral education could work. It will not work in every situation but it could. I do not believe that oral deaf people are more successful. What I believe is that if a deaf child is oral, the child could have more opportunities because they would be able to go into the hearing community and not rely on an interpeter or writing notes to get their point across.

And there are the contadictions in your statements. To be provided more opportunity is the same as being more successful because one cannot achieve success without opportunity. Rather than trying to change the deaf individual, change the system.
Also in my area the TC programs are functioning about 2 to 5 years below the grade level and this is not what I wanted for my children. Maybe other areas they have different programs for TC/bibi kids but not in my area.

Then do something to change it. Your philosophy only perpetuates the problem.

You'll scare them off. Instead, just tell them that what oral education is. History of oralism, success stories, failure stories (can't always be successful in oral education can there?).

This is what I do, I tell parents about oral education. I really don't tell them about the success because 100% of the parents that come to me have heard about my children. I do tell them about the failures and how some of the failures we know why and some we do not know. I do tell them about TC and cued speech because this is what we have kind of close by. I do tell them some of success stories with both methods. Since being on this board I will tell parents that there is a bibi program but we do not offer in CA. I tell them about the cochlear succcess and failures and the different levels a child can reach.

I personally see there has been a lot of changes in education for the deaf, because there's a lot more options out there. Towns are allowing mainstreaming with interpreters in classrooms. Schools are realizing that the English language skills really needed to be focused on in these schools (sadly, a little too late for most). ADA laws has been in effect for a while, and it *will* take a LONG while before EVERYONE is EDUCATED about the law. 20 years from now, there will be deaf people still going to oral schools. There will be deaf people still be going to a bi-bi/TC environment schools. There will probably be a big improvement in English skills among deaf students. Deaf Culture will always be there regardless what some people think. BUT - I believe that there will be hearing people all over having SOME type of grasp about deaf people. Why? E-D-U-C-A-T-I-O-N.


And I agree with you. And I think you should seek out how to get on one of those board of education. Or at least go to every board meeting and tell them your thoughts.


Ahh. what a relief. I'm ready for the bashings. :)

You might think you have bashed me but I did not take it that way. I respect and valuable what deaf adults think and what they have been through. You are not going to change what I do for a living but you will affect my thoughts. Thank you
Click to expand...



If you truly respected the deaf opinion, and considered their experience to be valuable, you would experience a change in your perspective.
 
jackiesolorzano said:
I cannot speak for all parents but in our case, I knew what the Deaf community felt about parents like me because I did my research so I was not going allowed the Deaf community to treat my children badly for the decisions I made. Nor was I going to let them treat me badly because I made informed decisions.
Click to expand...

Perhaps it was not your knowledge that caused rejection, but your attitude. From that statement above, it would appear that you went into the deaf communty on the defensive and ready to do battle instead of trying to build bridges. Refer back to Buffalo's post regarding Newton's third law.
 
jillio said:
To say that school boards have no power is naive. I'm sorry, vallee, but it is. School boards have far too much power to influence what goes on in a classroom and a school district.

We are not talking about segregation. We are talking about leadership. Leadership for the deaf by the deaf. Right back to the phrase, "Nothing for us without us."

Buffalo didn't create Hebrew schools....the Jewish people did. "Nothing for us without us." They took the responsibility to insure that their children received the best education possible by creating schools that incorportate a Bi-Bi philosophy.

Buffalo isn't responsible for the African American move toward a more Bi-Bi approach to educating their children through charter schools that include accurate Black history, and creates an environment for children to develop a success identity rather than the failure identity they are being given in public schools. The African American community has seen where their children are being neglected by the public school system and have taken the steps to create charter schools to address the needs of the students that the public school is not addresssing.

Proponents of mainstreaming want to talk about integration and assimilation, but that is all they do. Simply placing a child in an integrated classroom does not create equal access. That holds true with a child with any difference from the white, middle class, non-dsabled population. Until the public schools address the needs of all students, mainstreaming serves only to further segregate. Its all fine and well to rest on our laurels, and say, look....we have all sorts of kids in our school, aren't we progressive and tolerant!" but what do we do when those kids exit 12 years of formal education with no skills to integrate into mainstream society after school?

We can sit back and consider ourselves to be progressive because we have abolished laws that prevent African American people from eating in the same restaurant that the whites eat in. But if we don't provide them with the education necessary to earn enough money at a job to afford to eat in that restaurant, have we really accomplished anything more than superficially salving our own conscious? That is the reality, my friend.
Click to expand...

QFT!!!
 
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