Putting your deaf children in which schools...and why?

[jillio]

And hearing people wouldnt stand for it, wouldnt they?

Not for a second! I can hear the protests now! But they consider it an acceptable social condition for the deaf kid.:roll:

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

Wirelessly posted

Post-secondary would be wicked for the oral and mainstreamed kids. Talk about cramming 10 years of missed experiences in 2-3 years. What a wicked bender.

Too bad I burnt out too hard and too fast.

 

[jillio]

Wirelessly posted

Post-secondary would be wicked for the oral and mainstreamed kids. Talk about cramming 10 years of missed experiences in 2-3 years. What a wicked bender.

Too bad I burnt out too hard and too fast.

I agree completely on that one. And the lack of transitional services available to oral deaf students complicates the situation a thousand fold.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

Wirelessly posted

I don't think transitional services will calmate the antics and the wildness that come with finding girls and guys that finally treat you as equal.



I wanted IT all! Proved to be too much.

 

[jillio]

Wirelessly posted

I don't think transitional services will calmate the antics and the wildness that come with finding girls and guys that finally treat you as equal.



I wanted IT all! Proved to be too much.

Well, as far as the social experience, no it wouldn't make up for it. That is something that kids need to get on a developmentally appropriate time schedule and it is information and skills that build on what has been acquired previously. Cummulative knowledge, if you will. But trasitional services could help some of the more difficult situatiuons if started well before a kid enters into the post secondary situation. I was also thinking of things such as being taught how to advocate for oneself with post secondary faculty and admin. Most oral kids go in thinking that disability services work as they do in high school, and it gets them into all kinds of difficulties.

 

[deafdyke]

AMEN!!!! Unless of course the kid was unilaterally dhh or postlingal or a VERY high acheiver or indications were that they only needed minimal accomondations to do really well.

Hahahah.... to clarify, even with unilateral or postlingal losses, it needs to be a case by case basis. I know of kids with unilateral losses who still have significent speech issues, and some postlingal kids may need more help. I just said that b/c it's usually the postlingal kids who do REALLY well and really thrive, and who don't generally need dhh specific ed, or may not even have social issues.

How do you class very high achiever? I got As and Bs, sometimes Cs, except for PE and music which I was terrible at. I was assessed by the special needs unit but the aim was to gradually mainstream as much as possible.

A super high acheiver would be the kind of kid who gets As in everything, and consistantly gets on High Honor roll, and gets all sorts of academic awards and goes to Name Brand Univeristy.

 

[natty_4ever]

Hahahah.... to clarify, even with unilateral or postlingal losses, it needs to be a case by case basis. I know of kids with unilateral losses who still have significent speech issues, and some postlingal kids may need more help. I just said that b/c it's usually the postlingal kids who do REALLY well and really thrive, and who don't generally need dhh specific ed, or may not even have social issues.
A super high acheiver would be the kind of kid who gets As in everything, and consistantly gets on High Honor roll, and gets all sorts of academic awards and goes to Name Brand Univeristy.

According to this, I'm a super high achiever. I love learning, and that's why I tutor kids for work. I've always loved reading since I was very little, and I was mainstreamed for school. Unfortunately, my school did not offer any accommodations whatsoever for me, so I literally had to teach myself everything or have my mom and dad help me (which was rare, because they're not from here and methods they learned in math/science/etc. were different from what I was supposed to know). Of course, I thought it was normal.

I don't want to brag because I did well or anything, I just want parents to know that even though I managed to succeed in mainstreaming, I'm not happy now looking back on it. I was raised with no clue as to what was out there to help me, and I suffered in class because I never knew what the teacher or other students were saying. It was hard work teaching myself the information that I missed by going through my textbooks.

Now that I know what I do, I realize it was NOT normal for others to teach themselves and miss out on everything. Like someone mentioned, the teacher would ask if I could "hear" something, and I'd reply yes, because of course, I'd never understand it--no matter what she did (To clarify here, I used to be moderately severe HOH, but my loss has progressed to severe-profound and I now call myself deaf). Parents who are considering mainstreaming their DHH child, please consider my experience. It was uncomfortable to be so isolated, but I truly thought everyone felt that way and it was okay. Don't let your child feel like that. I feel so much more at home with other deafies like me.

 

[KristinaB]

According to this, I'm a super high achiever. I love learning, and that's why I tutor kids for work. I've always loved reading since I was very little, and I was mainstreamed for school. Unfortunately, my school did not offer any accommodations whatsoever for me, so I literally had to teach myself everything or have my mom and dad help me (which was rare, because they're not from here and methods they learned in math/science/etc. were different from what I was supposed to know). Of course, I thought it was normal.

I don't want to brag because I did well or anything, I just want parents to know that even though I managed to succeed in mainstreaming, I'm not happy now looking back on it. I was raised with no clue as to what was out there to help me, and I suffered in class because I never knew what the teacher or other students were saying. It was hard work teaching myself the information that I missed by going through my textbooks.

Now that I know what I do, I realize it was NOT normal for others to teach themselves and miss out on everything. Like someone mentioned, the teacher would ask if I could "hear" something, and I'd reply yes, because of course, I'd never understand it--no matter what she did (To clarify here, I used to be moderately severe HOH, but my loss has progressed to severe-profound and I now call myself deaf). Parents who are considering mainstreaming their DHH child, please consider my experience. It was uncomfortable to be so isolated, but I truly thought everyone felt that way and it was okay. Don't let your child feel like that. I feel so much more at home with other deafies like me.

This sounds so much like what I went through. I have an absolute love of reading and Have taken to home schooling my kids. (there were a lot of extenuating circumstances).

I too missed a lot while being mainstreamed. I had HA's, but they weren't enough and I didn't have them from grades 4-12. (no money to get them). Schools did not have any services at the time where we lived. I had the help of friends and family.

My mother now says that if she was aware of what was out there, she would have fought my father's decision and gotten me the help, but he was in charge of me and my hearing issues.

 

[natty_4ever]

My mother now says that if she was aware of what was out there, she would have fought my father's decision and gotten me the help, but he was in charge of me and my hearing issues.

That's the sad part. So many parents don't know what we go through when we are mainstreamed with no accommodations. My parents didn't know either.

 

[jillio]

That's the sad part. So many parents don't know what we go through when we are mainstreamed with no accommodations. My parents didn't know either.

Unfortunately, this is very true. And many don't find out until the child is well into adulthood. The parent spends the child's entire school career believing everything is just hunkie dorie. Then the child becomes a young adult and starts to manifest issues that were created in the mainstream, such as anxiety disorders, eating disorders, adjustment disorders, depression, etc.

 

[RoseRodent]

Unfortunately, this is very true. And many don't find out until the child is well into adulthood. The parent spends the child's entire school career believing everything is just hunkie dorie. Then the child becomes a young adult and starts to manifest issues that were created in the mainstream, such as anxiety disorders, eating disorders, adjustment disorders, depression, etc.

This is what worries me about the schools and preschools constantly saying how "well" my daughter is doing. Partly she is doing so well because of the work we and they put into ensuring she does so well, but also I think they are inclined to say you are doing OK so long as you are not failing. It's not about meeting your potential, it's about not becoming an issue. Provided you aren't going to fail the national standards and have the school flagged up as not performing very well then never mind if you could have been an A student not a C student, just don't be an F student and all is well.

And this is where they start to make "allowances" by mistake instead of accommodations , saying she is "doing well considering..." or that never mind that her exam mark in French listening was non-existent because we know she's deaf... how about an alternate exam instead? It's not good enough just to "understand why it would be difficult to join debate team" - make it possible!

The schools don't like to be the bearers of bad tidings, nor do they want to have to do work, so it's easier to say she's doing fine than to square up to parents and say she is having problems and those problems are down to the hearing.

And often they just don't see the problems at all or don't see them for what they are. I was always in trouble for being "miserable" and "not mixing very well with the other children" - could that possibly be because I had no idea what the other children were on about? :roll:

It's so critical to get the wording right. I asked my daughter's preschool teacher to change her report in case it ends up following her to school one day as part of her assessment process. It said that the nursery had "no concerns about her progress". When I queried it they said they had no concerns other than those we had already addressed to do with her speech, hearing and language, and they could see she was continuing to make progress with her speech and language, therefore they don't need to raise it as a concern since it's being dealt with already. Not quite the same thing as there being no concerns, though!

 

[jillio]

This is what worries me about the schools and preschools constantly saying how "well" my daughter is doing. Partly she is doing so well because of the work we and they put into ensuring she does so well, but also I think they are inclined to say you are doing OK so long as you are not failing. It's not about meeting your potential, it's about not becoming an issue. Provided you aren't going to fail the national standards and have the school flagged up as not performing very well then never mind if you could have been an A student not a C student, just don't be an F student and all is well.

And this is where they start to make "allowances" by mistake instead of accommodations , saying she is "doing well considering..." or that never mind that her exam mark in French listening was non-existent because we know she's deaf... how about an alternate exam instead? It's not good enough just to "understand why it would be difficult to join debate team" - make it possible!

The schools don't like to be the bearers of bad tidings, nor do they want to have to do work, so it's easier to say she's doing fine than to square up to parents and say she is having problems and those problems are down to the hearing.

And often they just don't see the problems at all or don't see them for what they are. I was always in trouble for being "miserable" and "not mixing very well with the other children" - could that possibly be because I had no idea what the other children were on about? :roll:

It's so critical to get the wording right. I asked my daughter's preschool teacher to change her report in case it ends up following her to school one day as part of her assessment process. It said that the nursery had "no concerns about her progress". When I queried it they said they had no concerns other than those we had already addressed to do with her speech, hearing and language, and they could see she was continuing to make progress with her speech and language, therefore they don't need to raise it as a concern since it's being dealt with already. Not quite the same thing as there being no concerns, though!

You have every right to be concerned. You are so right. As long as a child is not failing outright, they tend to say they are progressing as expected. This is the result of having lowered expectations for the deaf student. And you are absolutely correct regarding allowances instead of accommodations. They should never be equated, and are not the same thing at all. Allowances permit a child to perform at a lesser level and still progress to the next grade level without having mastered the skills they need. Accommodations allow the child to perform to their ability and master the skills they need to progress to the next grade level. It is amazing how many mainstream schools confuse the two. Of course, I am speaking from my experience here in the states, but it would appear that the same thing is happening in Scotland from your reports. I also correspond with a friend's sister in Ireland who has a deaf child. According to her, Ireland is also failing the deaf children in the same way we are in the states.

 

[A]

I agree, If a HOH/deaf child have accommodations where it is needed and it is working out well for that child, then it is no excuse for the teacher to have lower standard or have lower expectation for that child. If they ever get to that point where they are lowering their expectation, then something need to change.

 

[Miss-Delectable]

It would not surprise me in the least if the same trend is occuring in Australia as well.

Many CIers are transferring to a deaf school or schools that has deaf facilities. Some are so delayed that they cannot catch up.

I wonder how can the this appalling, apathetic trend can be reversed?

 

[WeeBeastie]

I think the most shocking thing I've noticed (so far) in mainstream programs is the lack of encouragement for DHH kids to excel beyond 'average'.

Katie has some language issues stemming from the fact she is being raised by hearing people who didn't know her language. She is delayed several areas I consider key - cannot answer questions or make choices presented in sign (rather than answer she just mimics the question), cannot connect color names with colors and does not seek out spontaneous communication. She is delayed about 2 years because of these. (That's a LOT at 3.5 years)

I requested summer language services for these areas and was denied for 2 reasons... a) she wouldn't regress enough over the summer to warrant summer services and b) she had made 'steady and even' progress in these areas through the school year and there was no reason to think that wouldn't continue.

I was a bit miffed by it all and asked if she were a hearing child with the same delays would this decision still stand. They said they couldn't answer that (which probably means no) but considering "Katie's situation" (profound and raised by hearing parents) the fact she's following a steady curve it is "very encouraging" and there's no reason to thing she couldn't continue this next year. "She's doing as well as can be expected." WTF?!

I've come to know some of the older deaf kids and their parents at the school and get the impression that, as long as they are toeing the benchmark standards, they are deemed to be doing 'well enough'. I also see that these kids are frustrated and/or bored. Either they're not doing as well as the teacher thinks or they're capable of excelling beyond their grade level and are bored out of their skulls because they're not challenged. If they're performing at or near grade level, that seems to be good enough. If they're not, well, that seems to be expected.

 

[melissa]

I don't have lots to say right now but am agreeing with much already said:

RR, this bit strikes me:

"And this is where they start to make "allowances" by mistake instead of accommodations , saying she is "doing well considering..." or that never mind that her exam mark in French listening was non-existent because we know she's deaf... how about an alternate exam instead? It's not good enough just to "understand why it would be difficult to join debate team" - make it possible!" --I didn't do well in french class with tapes being played, but in my (separate from the other students) oral exams the teacher read out the scripts to me, and I did well (got an A I think, I loved French). But I know it's apples and oranges as I'm hoh and not deaf. I know Lissa didn't get to do French (we were both in mainstream high school with bits of special ed units)- personally I think it's unfair- if she can go to English class then why not French? Even with an FM system the tapes in French weren't very understandable- did a teacher read out the script to your daughter?

RR...you say what I'm thinking!
"And often they just don't see the problems at all or don't see them for what they are. I was always in trouble for being "miserable" and "not mixing very well with the other children" - could that possibly be because I had no idea what the other children were on about?" --the other kids would either make fun of me or have to repeat 'hi, how are you' 3 times because of the background noise in class- so no wonder I didn't socialise- I could only understand people sat right next to me!

Finally, I'm quoting the wonderful jillio:
"Unfortunately, this is very true. And many don't find out until the child is well into adulthood. The parent spends the child's entire school career believing everything is just hunkie dorie. Then the child becomes a young adult and starts to manifest issues that were created in the mainstream, such as anxiety disorders, eating disorders, adjustment disorders, depression, etc." -- how did you KNOW?? I've had nearly all of those; whether my school life contributed is debatable but I certainly don't remember them fondly most of the time.

I don't know if this fits into the discussion anywhere, but my infant school teacher, Miss Fardy, was horrid. I don't remember her, but mum says she overheard her at parents evening telling all the parents that their kids were too noisy and ran around too much! We were 5 and 6! Apparently she smacked me for 'destroying' a wendy (toy) house but I don't remember this. She is the same teacher who, upon my hearing test results, said 'Oh, I thought she was just being rude and ignoring me'. My mum queried her after she saw other kids coming out of school with little books when she came to pick me up. Apparently Miss Fardy didn't think I was 'ready' to learn to read! I was reading a little at home, and I distinctly remember reading my 5th birthday card from my Nanna out loud. Mum went straight to the library and taught me how to read properly herself...

N.B. I always wanted to find this 'teacher' and causally mention that I have an English degree now.

 

[A]

It would not surprise me in the least if the same trend is occuring in Australia as well.

Many CIers are transferring to a deaf school or schools that has deaf facilities. Some are so delayed that they cannot catch up.

I wonder how can the this appalling, apathetic trend can be reversed?

I can imagine so. If CI users are not mapped correctly and teachers don't realize that a new mapping may sound totally different to that child and may not be able to understand everything the teacher said for a little while, I can see how easily they can be behind. (new mapping always seem to sound slightly different to me.. I'm constantly training myself to listen with the new mapping)

Also, laid back/too busy parents + CI/HA + oral-only is a huge risk of language delay. parental involvement is extremely important. Without parental involvment, then mapping can not be done when needed/ cracked tubes and old molds for HA can not be replaced (in my case, I didn't have to worry about that because the school provided me a bodyworn FM system that is like hearing aids but If I had CI I would need mapping). The school can't do it for them unless they have an audiologist in their school.

 

[A]

WeeB, That's exactly we've have been trying to say for years about mainstreamed. Teachers are taught in college what THEY can expect out of deaf students (other then we are visual learners and can't hear). If you think your daughter's school is bad, I highly recommend you to look for a really good school no matter what the cost. Or make sure a really good ToD come to your daughter's school (if that's possible).

 

[jillio]

I don't have lots to say right now but am agreeing with much already said:

RR, this bit strikes me:

"And this is where they start to make "allowances" by mistake instead of accommodations , saying she is "doing well considering..." or that never mind that her exam mark in French listening was non-existent because we know she's deaf... how about an alternate exam instead? It's not good enough just to "understand why it would be difficult to join debate team" - make it possible!" --I didn't do well in french class with tapes being played, but in my (separate from the other students) oral exams the teacher read out the scripts to me, and I did well (got an A I think, I loved French). But I know it's apples and oranges as I'm hoh and not deaf. I know Lissa didn't get to do French (we were both in mainstream high school with bits of special ed units)- personally I think it's unfair- if she can go to English class then why not French? Even with an FM system the tapes in French weren't very understandable- did a teacher read out the script to your daughter?

RR...you say what I'm thinking!
"And often they just don't see the problems at all or don't see them for what they are. I was always in trouble for being "miserable" and "not mixing very well with the other children" - could that possibly be because I had no idea what the other children were on about?" --the other kids would either make fun of me or have to repeat 'hi, how are you' 3 times because of the background noise in class- so no wonder I didn't socialise- I could only understand people sat right next to me!

Finally, I'm quoting the wonderful jillio:
"Unfortunately, this is very true. And many don't find out until the child is well into adulthood. The parent spends the child's entire school career believing everything is just hunkie dorie. Then the child becomes a young adult and starts to manifest issues that were created in the mainstream, such as anxiety disorders, eating disorders, adjustment disorders, depression, etc." -- how did you KNOW?? I've had nearly all of those; whether my school life contributed is debatable but I certainly don't remember them fondly most of the time.

I don't know if this fits into the discussion anywhere, but my infant school teacher, Miss Fardy, was horrid. I don't remember her, but mum says she overheard her at parents evening telling all the parents that their kids were too noisy and ran around too much! We were 5 and 6! Apparently she smacked me for 'destroying' a wendy (toy) house but I don't remember this. She is the same teacher who, upon my hearing test results, said 'Oh, I thought she was just being rude and ignoring me'. My mum queried her after she saw other kids coming out of school with little books when she came to pick me up. Apparently Miss Fardy didn't think I was 'ready' to learn to read! I was reading a little at home, and I distinctly remember reading my 5th birthday card from my Nanna out loud. Mum went straight to the library and taught me how to read properly herself...

N.B. I always wanted to find this 'teacher' and causally mention that I have an English degree now.

Sadly, I know because I have seen it happen over and over and over again. Sadly, I know because I deal with deaf adolescents in a therapy group. And, sadly, I know because I see hearing parents continuing down the same road right this minute.

 

[deafskeptic]

This sounds so much like what I went through. I have an absolute love of reading and Have taken to home schooling my kids. (there were a lot of extenuating circumstances).

I too missed a lot while being mainstreamed. I had HA's, but they weren't enough and I didn't have them from grades 4-12. (no money to get them). Schools did not have any services at the time where we lived. I had the help of friends and family.

My mother now says that if she was aware of what was out there, she would have fought my father's decision and gotten me the help, but he was in charge of me and my hearing issues.

I can relate to you and natty. I feel like I have to teach myself everything as the hearing aren't going to be too helpful.