Peer Relationships of Children With Cochlear Implants

[shel90]

I absolutely agree with Shel and jillio's comments so far (plus few others too). Still a hot topic, huh. lol

Anyway, I think rick48 and vallee both don't realize how severe it caused the oralists, rather majority but not few ones who succeed or grew up fine, some serious difficulties growing up due to few obvious problems laid at them before at schools and socials (etc).

It (oralism) even didn't prevent their language delays, too as it has proven so far... not only with the deaf schools.

I went to deaf school yet I didn't experience any sexual abuse or whatever - the same with my close friends and some yet we have heard few sexual abuses happening over the years. Like some others sad that residential oralism schools experienced the same thing, but really, it is indifferent in the hearing world aka cub scouts, catholic schools, and etc. too.

You have to remember that we cannot blame deaf schools for failing to improve the language delays... why? Because in the beginning (the past) they taught oralism first while some started total communication...

but the ASL especially the early intervention part wasn't put in the action in the deaf-mainstream-oralism schools in the beginning back then so that indeed caused the language delays for so many deaf students in BOTH worlds even!

Then now we many recognize that it was the PROBLEM and want to change all that by reaching hearing parents and schools to start teach ASL at very early age the first thing then other methods may follow up, the better it does for those deaf-hoh students. It is undeniable the best way to do!

And yes, yes.. we must do something especially with those audist professionals and doctors themselves who kept screwing up in the past and still do! I think that every state residents need to do something real time to follow up the same thing that state of California just passed the new law requiring them to provide ALL methods for them to choose. But sure it's the beginning still... like stressing more and more reading, too!

I am all for that! That's all I want and still do.

 

[shel90]

I agree with you as well. I have also met some CI kids that don't even know what deaf is and are doing just fine with their hearing peers. Honestly I would never notice a difference. Deaf just isn't part of their lives or their identity at all. I also have seen kids like the one I mentioned earlier who are 13 IN a segregated environment and still aren't recieving the support required and deaf schools won't take her because she doesn't sign and she isn't 'deaf' though that is what she needs now.

I think that by saying BiBi for all you are also creating a one size fits all approach and you do need to be open mainstreaming or ASL only if that is what works best.

Even if I was mainstreamed in school I was brought up with Deaf friends and I did discover Deaf culture at an early age. Even if I wasn't getting it in school, and I was miserable without in school, I was getting it in other places.

I also feel that by saying don't listen to the professionals that discredits both you and I Shel. We are both professionals in this world and we do voice our opinions heavily. I think the mistake is to only listen to one professional, to only see one professional, and to take everything that professional says to be true. You need to hear out all sides of before making such desicions.

Ultamitly everyone would be exposed to everything. Every religion, every race, every disability, every language, every social class, every gender, every sexuality (you get the point) and be able to choose for themselves where they wanted to be, who they wanted to be with, and how they wanted to live their lives. That doesn't happen. Parents influence who their children will become and if a parent is hearing and wants their child to fit into that world only that is what they will do. Early implantation, intensive AVT, mainstreaming all the way and it is quite probable that child will never want anything else. If the parents are Deaf and choose to raise their child with ASL only so they fit into their world then that's fine too.

Shel, you sign with your son right? You are raising your child to fit into your world and he is hearing. It is natural and there is nothing wrong with doing that. I just don't think we can flame the parents for wanting to do the same thing. The key is early intervention to recognize whether or not that will be possible and if there is ANY doubt ensuring that there is language development, regardless of the language, so the child can at least have native proficiency in one language and then learn others later.

Language development is my main concern for kids. As long as their are getting that and have no delay/a mild delay I am happy. I don't care what language they are getting, just as long as I don't need to clean up the mess later. It is a lot easier to teach spoken language to child that has sign and sign to a child that has spoken language. It is not fun trying to teach a child who is 13 with a vocab of 50-100 words (spoken and signed) either of the languages because the brain just isn't capable of it.

My son gets the best of both worlds and I think all deaf children deserve that as well.

 

[JennyB]

My son gets the best of both worlds and I think all deaf children deserve that as well.

Valid point.

 

[Pinky]

That is even better than having one deaf child in the whole school. Those kids are being exposed to both worlds and that's great. I do not believe in the oral and hearing only philosophy for the sake of assimilating deaf children into the so-called "real" world, whatever that is.

That's true. That where I was raise to mainstream school for mixed deaf and hard of hearing in classrooms. I refuse to be one person in hearing school. Noway. I never go to hearing classrooms because I can't hear. I prefer use sign languages with interpreter. I can't stand to be only deaf in hearing classroom without interpreter. I am still friend with who is CI. She is still use sign language. We are along and along with other hearing friends who know sign languages.

I am sorry about your bad experience to raise school for only one deaf in hearing classroom. I can understand it's very frustrate for you to use oral without sign languages.

 

[rockdrummer]

Stories like these is what drives my anger and parents here wonder why I am so angered at the stupid f**&^cing audist.

Come on...STOP with forcing deaf kids to act like hearing kids cuz they ARE NOT hearing! Geez! (not at u, Jenny).

See RD...why study to see how deaf kids with CI interact with hearing kids? Why cant they learn from the past when deaf kids are put in in an all hearing environment day in and day out? Stop experimenting with these kids and just accept that they are deaf and expose all of them to both worlds!

You have to have studies. How else would you know if a given method is working?

 

[rockdrummer]

See, right there is what I will never ever understand. Most hearing people are friends with only hearing people so why is it so wrong if some deaf people are friends with only deaf people? So what if people choose to be friends with people like them?

As for children, expose them to all kinds of people whether deaf, blind, immobile, white, black, Chinese, Spanish, and so forth but when they are adults, they have every right to choose who their friends are.

I hate it when hearing people say that deaf children arent good enough for each other. It is ridiculous!

It's not that simple Shel. You act like deaf people are abundent in society. I can tell you from my personal experience that they either are not or they hide it pretty well. How can I be friends with and interact with someone I never encounter. My opinion is that you are taking too much for granted when you say that.

 

[jillio]

It's not that simple Shel. You act like deaf people are abundent in society. I can tell you from my personal experience that they either are not or they hide it pretty well. How can I be friends with and interact with someone I never encounter. My opinion is that you are taking too much for granted when you say that.

Well, I don't know about that, RD. When my son was diagnosed, I had never met, nor interacted with another deaf person in my entire life. (at, least, not in my awareness). Within 3 months of my son's diagnosis, I was standing right in the middle of a large deaf community not 15 miles from my home. (And that deaf community had not just formed in the prior 3 months!)
My point is, I thought I had never run into a deaf person. The actuality is that they were there all along. I had simply failed to notice. Once I realized that deaf people were all around me in all walks of life, and not as "rare" as I once believed them to be, I also began to realize that neither were blind people, or people with physical disabilities, or people with mental disabilities, etc. etc. It's not that they aren't there. It's that we fail to recognize them when we see them.

 

[rick48]

[Mod's Edit - Previous Quote removed thus provoking]

Gee, that's exactly how I feel about those who do not have cochlear implants or children with cochlear implants telling parents of cochlear implant children how to raise and educate their children or what those children are experiencing.

 

[rockdrummer]

Well, I don't know about that, RD. When my son was diagnosed, I had never met, nor interacted with another deaf person in my entire life. (at, least, not in my awareness). Within 3 months of my son's diagnosis, I was standing right in the middle of a large deaf community not 15 miles from my home. (And that deaf community had not just formed in the prior 3 months!)
My point is, I thought I had never run into a deaf person. The actuality is that they were there all along. I had simply failed to notice. Once I realized that deaf people were all around me in all walks of life, and not as "rare" as I once believed them to be, I also began to realize that neither were blind people, or people with physical disabilities, or people with mental disabilities, etc. etc. It's not that they aren't there. It's that we fail to recognize them when we see them.

Perhaps both sides should seek each other out. I don't view this as one sided. (not suggesting that you do)

 

[Bottesini]

Gee, that's exactly how I feel about those who do not have cochlear implants or children with cochlear implants telling parents of cochlear implant children how to raise and educate their children or what those children are experiencing.

And because you have experience, Rick, I never tell you to shut up. You have your side viewpoint to argue.

I was specifically telling a "Deaf groupie" to stay out of just chiming in to say something, when she really knows nothing.

You know the CI side so should not feel I meant you.

 

[jillio]

And because you have experience, Rick, I never tell you to shut up. You have your side viewpoint to argue.

I was specifically telling a "Deaf groupie" to stay out of just chiming in to say something, when she really knows nothing.

You know the CI side so should not feel I meant you.

And I might add that those who work, on a daily basis, with deaf students with and without CI, whether they have a CI themselves or are parent of a child with a CI, have valuable insight and experience that perhaps parents should take the time to listen to. These professionals have a much wider, more objective perspective and inside knowledge of variables that parents are, more often than not, completely unaware of.

 

[shel90]

It's not that simple Shel. You act like deaf people are abundent in society. I can tell you from my personal experience that they either are not or they hide it pretty well. How can I be friends with and interact with someone I never encounter. My opinion is that you are taking too much for granted when you say that.

I was responding to a post hence my comments which are directed to another poster's experience with hearing people.

 

[shel90]

You have to have studies. How else would you know if a given method is working?

The old study that u first posted already proved what happens with deaf children when in all hearing environment. Why are further studies needed? That was my point.

 

[rick48]

And because you have experience, Rick, I never tell you to shut up. You have your side viewpoint to argue.

I was specifically telling a "Deaf groupie" to stay out of just chiming in to say something, when she really knows nothing.

You know the CI side so should not feel I meant you.

Thanks, I appreciate that.
Rick

 

[JennyB]

And I might add that those who work, on a daily basis, with deaf students with and without CI, whether they have a CI themselves or are parent of a child with a CI, have valuable insight and experience that perhaps parents should take the time to listen to. These professionals have a much wider, more objective perspective and inside knowledge of variables that parents are, more often than not, completely unaware of.

I agree, and although I am a worker so that might be a bit biased I do feel like those of us who work with these individuals have a more unbiased opinion than the parents.

I have worked with kids in AVT, BiBi, ASL only school programs. I have worked on language development through many methods including programs that I have designed along with other workers, and professionals. I have worked with kids with no hearing loss at all, to profound or even total losses. I have worked with kids with CI's, HA's, BAHA, or no amplification at all. I have seen all ends of the spectrum.

I still stand in saying that if there is any doubt of spoken language developing appropriatly sign must be introduced. It is much easier to do that as a precaution than as reaction to a language delay in the future. All parents want their children to communicate, plain and simple. I don't think any parent would argue that.

As for a previouse comment of deaf schools. Here in Toronto the Toronto District School Board has a public day school for deaf kids that teaches BiBi, and then several highschool programs throughout the city. While that would be wonderful to have everywhere you also must think about the reality of doing so. Hence the provincial deaf schools.

 

[jillio]

I agree, and although I am a worker so that might be a bit biased I do feel like those of us who work with these individuals have a more unbiased opinion than the parents.

I have worked with kids in AVT, BiBi, ASL only school programs. I have worked on language development through many methods including programs that I have designed along with other workers, and professionals. I have worked with kids with no hearing loss at all, to profound or even total losses. I have worked with kids with CI's, HA's, BAHA, or no amplification at all. I have seen all ends of the spectrum.

I still stand in saying that if there is any doubt of spoken language developing appropriatly sign must be introduced. It is much easier to do that as a precaution than as reaction to a language delay in the future. All parents want their children to communicate, plain and simple. I don't think any parent would argue that.

As for a previouse comment of deaf schools. Here in Toronto the Toronto District School Board has a public day school for deaf kids that teaches BiBi, and then several highschool programs throughout the city. While that would be wonderful to have everywhere you also must think about the reality of doing so. Hence the provincial deaf schools.

Agreed...it is much easier to prevent a language delay than to remediate a language delay.

 

[shel90]

I agree, and although I am a worker so that might be a bit biased I do feel like those of us who work with these individuals have a more unbiased opinion than the parents.

I have worked with kids in AVT, BiBi, ASL only school programs. I have worked on language development through many methods including programs that I have designed along with other workers, and professionals. I have worked with kids with no hearing loss at all, to profound or even total losses. I have worked with kids with CI's, HA's, BAHA, or no amplification at all. I have seen all ends of the spectrum.

I still stand in saying that if there is any doubt of spoken language developing appropriatly sign must be introduced. It is much easier to do that as a precaution than as reaction to a language delay in the future. All parents want their children to communicate, plain and simple. I don't think any parent would argue that.

As for a previouse comment of deaf schools. Here in Toronto the Toronto District School Board has a public day school for deaf kids that teaches BiBi, and then several highschool programs throughout the city. While that would be wonderful to have everywhere you also must think about the reality of doing so. Hence the provincial deaf schools.

That's the key factor to why I have such a strong belief in the BiBi approach.

About deaf schools, I am not proposing that all deaf children go to deaf schools whether they are residential or day deaf schools especially if they are very far. I can undy parents' hestistance in sending their young children to dorms.

My whole argument is to expose all deaf children to both sign and spoken languages and both deaf and hearing kids as much as possible because of the risks for language delays with any of these kids for they dont benefit from picking up on spoken language only. Doesnt matter if the children have CIs, HAs, or nothing..u just never know so better be safe than sorry.

I know that there are a lot of people against my way of thinking but I dont care because I see what happens to kids who do not have full access to communication or language and feel isolated among their hearing peers. I will stand by my beliefs even if it means having the whole world against me..I do not care...all I care about is those kids' rights to equal access to education and peers.

 

[deafdyke]

About deaf schools, I am not proposing that all deaf children go to deaf schools whether they are residential or day deaf schools especially if they are very far. I can undy parents' hestistance in sending their young children to dorms.

Neither am I. I think that there should be a continuum of placements from straight mainstream with minimal accomondations to residental schooling.
Yes, it's good to say "Oh I think that kids should be raised by their families"
But not every family structure is "healthy"....there are tons of dysfunctional families out there. Not nessarily social services involvement dysfunctional.....but there are still many dysfunctional families where it might be better if kids went away to school.
I am just saying that I disagree with the attitude that mainstream school (ie regular classes, regualr school) is the best for ALL kids with disabilties.
It's too one size fits all.

 

[shel90]

Neither am I. I think that there should be a continuum of placements from straight mainstream with minimal accomondations to residental schooling.
Yes, it's good to say "Oh I think that kids should be raised by their families"
But not every family structure is "healthy"....there are tons of dysfunctional families out there. Not nessarily social services involvement dysfunctional.....but there are still many dysfunctional families where it might be better if kids went away to school.
I am just saying that I disagree with the attitude that mainstream school (ie regular classes, regualr school) is the best for ALL kids with disabilties.
It's too one size fits all.

I just want more mainstreamed programs to value and understand these deaf children's deaf needs and teach them about Deaf culture especially the history behind it and the role models. I never knew ANYTHING about the history of Deaf culture or been taught that there were many great Deaf role models. All of the history and role model that were taught to me were all hearing-based so I felt I was going to grow up so dependent on others cuz of my deafness.

That is all I want...the respect and sensitivity to deaf children's deaf needs and ASL.

 

[JennyB]

[Mod's Edit - Previous Quote removed thus enticing]

I am not against cochlear implants for children. Never said I was. Unless you are assuming because I don't have one I am against it.

I can slip into the hearing world very easily if that is what I wish to do. I can speech read, and speak very well. My oral skills are amazing actually. Just because I have them doesn't mean I want to always use them. I prefer ASL for myself and that is my choice. I don't force that on the families I work with. Nor do I tell them no to go the CI route.

I am actually with a family right now who has a son with a profound hearing loss. He is 7 and his first language is ASL. He was in intensive AVT and it wasn't working so they recently dropped it as it only made him miserable. Now he will be starting in a local deaf school in the fall. They just had a second child, two weeks ago, and she is also profoundly deaf. When the parents asked me about cochlear implants I told them that as long as they implanted early and commited to the therapy. Of course ASL will be a part of her life because that is her brothers method of communication. When they asked me about implanting him I was honest and said it may not be worth it now that he is 7 and clearly has chosen ASL as his method of communication.

I work with another family that has two kids with CI's and the mother has a CI her self. I do only spoken language development with the kids and we do not sign at all. I am open to anything as long as the child isn't jeopardy. Parents are biased. They are always biased, it is impossible not to be. I am lucky to have families that realise that and let the workers communicate with one another and let the workers go to meetings at the school, with SLP's, audies and all other professionals. It is the only way we can work as a team and get the best possible thing for the children. I hate the parents that are dictators and think they know best. Those are the ones who really don't. You know the old saying that it takes a villiage to raise a child...