Original Sin

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It doesn´t mean that I am against you personally over your belief when I debate with agree to disagree something with you at Religion debates or debates section.
I know that. I mean, when I give you proof from the Bible or Christian websites, you say that you don't believe them. That's why I try to find non-Christian websites in addition to Christian ones to give you.


Well, I only collect their beliefs and learn to understand where they come from. I thought all the time about Baptist until I learn for a first time from you... that´s why I will check with my friends on this.
Baptists are completely separate from other religions.

Some independent churches have beliefs similar to Baptist but they are all separate from each other.
 
No, it´s not legal adult but support young adult´s choice which I mean is teenagers or perhaps young than teenager... Depend on children´s maturity. It´s up to them either they want to be atheists, agnostics or other beliefs.... It´s up to their parents as well... Remember each parents have different children upbringing.. I only say what I know from seeing them.
Our church won't baptize minors without the parents' permission.

The child makes the decision but must get parental permission for baptism. They follow the biblical principle of obeying parents. Also, our church believes that baptisms and church membership should not be done behind a parent's back.
 
Oh.. I have to go way back to post 192...

"Because Serpent told them that he is an angel since they know that angels are with God. How could they know that one of angels are bad?" - Liebling (post 192)

First, The serpent never claimed to be an Angel of God. The only information presented in the Bible is that a Serpent spoke to Eve. You have assumed a lot. You have assumed Adam and Eve were aware that the angels were with God, yet God walked personally with Adam and Eve in the garden, and the Bible never claims that Adam and Eve had ever met an angel. You have also assumed that the serpent claimed to be a servant of God, once again you are mistaken. The serpent simply said that they could eat from the tree and not die. A serpent, in the form of a serpent. Looked like a serpent, acted like a serpent and spoke. You have assumed that Adam and Eve knew a lot, and then claim they don't know that much in your next statment.

"There're no comparision because Eve and Adam are naive like every babies who begin to learn what wrong or right. We were being taught since we were babies what wrong and right... God created Eve and Adam as woman and man, not babies." - Liebling

You are right. There is a huge difference. This was in reffernce to My example of getting a speeding ticket in America being unaware of the speed limit (cause I'm a Canadian). I would still get a ticket, despite my ignorance. I have already clearly stated that the Bible claims an individual can Sin without knowing. The Bible clearly uses the word Unintentional Sin or Sinning with out knowing it.

However, Adam and Eve knew specifically not to eat from the tree. In fact, Eve repeated the rule before she took the fruit. She clearly stated what God had told her. I will paraphrase what Eve said "I can't eat, or even touch the fruit, that's what God said."

Eve and Adam knew the rule. They may have been 'new', they may have been curious, but they knew the RULE, and they knew the CONSEQUENCE, it is perfectly FAIR for God to punish them.

"Eve and Adam are like naughty children and tried out of curiously... Why can't God forgave their ONE mistake instead of kick them out of garden and let them acheive their own life.... no forgive or loving from God.... Eve and Adam still positive their children about God.... and regret their one mistake... It would be different story if they repeat their mistake but they made only ONE mistake... Oh please....

Oh, I see what you are saying: It is ok for me to kill one person, but if I continue to kill people, that's when I'm sinning. It's okay to try Killing someone just to satisfy my curiousity, but once I've got it out of my system I should stop.

The punishment for Sin is Death. Who decides what Sin is? God. Who decided the punishment? God. Sure, people can be curious. Sure, people can be tempted. Jesus, was tempted in the desert. I face temptation all the time. Temptation is a part of our life now. Being tempted is not a Sin. Following through on an action that breaks one of God's rules is a Sin. Adam and Eve had a very clear UNDERSTANDING of the RULE.

"That's why I beleive those Original sin is from traditional religion theological. I guess those situtation over over Eve and Adam are a fairy-tale story"

Ok.. I too believe that Original Sin is fould in traditional Christianity, and is presented in the Bible. Wether or not Adam and Eve is a Fairy-Tale story, you must analyse the story itself to argue it.
Adam and Eve understood not to eat.
God had given them a rule to follow.
Adam and Eve viewed God as their Father Figure, Creator, Figure of Authority.
A serpent told Eve that God was wrong.
Eve believed the serpent.
Adam followed Eve, and both broke God's rule.
God gave them the consequence he had promised.

Why didn't God just ignore the fact that they broke a rule?
Because God had already said, "If you eat the fruit, you will surely die."
If God didn't follow through with this, God would have Lied.
 
:confused: You understood at last but why you call yourself as a Christian when you claim in your post like this? It sound Agnostic to me.. ? I said the same thing as you in my some posts at several threads?

I saw some believers who know a lot about their beliefs and give you answer what they know everything... I doesn't mean 100% but give you good answer.

No, that dont mean im an agnostic or anything like that, im still a
Christian. Its just that we all, including you have many, many unanswered
questions about the Bible and life itself. Life is a big mystery, really.
My pastor even said, he himself has many unanswered questions that
he would like answered but he cant! That is why im trying to explain to
Yiffzer that when he asked those perplexing questions that he posted in
here and he was despondent that none of us were able to provide any
clear answers to him or even debate with him.
This is one question i have always wondered and i know everybody have
too, WHERE DID GOD COME FROM??...that is ONE question we will NEVER
know unless the christians go to heaven and maybe we will find out the
truth? who knows??
 
Biological from who and how?

Biological as in science, not creationism. Evolutionary facts that can be supported by scientific evidence. That is not to say that it isn't the result of some big guy in the sky directing everything, it is just to say that the evidence doesn't support it.
 
Biological as in science, not creationism. Evolutionary facts that can be supported by scientific evidence. That is not to say that it isn't the result of some big guy in the sky directing everything, it is just to say that the evidence doesn't support it.

Evolution has plenty of loopholes and not only that, many have no clue that the Bible has a backup. I, myself, seeing in both side, science and Bible fit. The problem, without God's Spirit within them, they will never see the point. Whatever God create or anything which human thinks is impossible. Why human thinks it's impossible? Bec they aren't God.
 
I know that. I mean, when I give you proof from the Bible or Christian websites, you say that you don't believe them. That's why I try to find non-Christian websites in addition to Christian ones to give you.

I think that I told you that the Religion human authors interpreted the bibles differently and ask you how do you know that either your bible is correct than other bibles when you convinced me with bible links, etc.
 
Our church won't baptize minors without the parents' permission.

The child makes the decision but must get parental permission for baptism. They follow the biblical principle of obeying parents. Also, our church believes that baptisms and church membership should not be done behind a parent's back.

Don't you read my previous post "support children's choice"? which mean that the parents accept to support their children's choice to become what they are. Other parents do not support their choice but make the choice for their children to follow their belief.

I do not make my children to follow my belief but their choice.
 
Don't you read my previous post "support children's choice"? which mean that the parents accept to support their children's choice to become what they are. Other parents do not support their choice but make the choice for their children to follow their belief.

I do not make my children to follow my belief but their choice.
All I did was explain our church policy. What is your problem?
 
Why Won't God Heal Amputees
"Understanding Original Sin" - article link provided by Liebling.

I just wanted to make a few comments regarding the article.

Here we are faced with an enigma -- a talking snake.

I find it odd that the author started by calling the creature a 'serpent', but then change the word to 'snake' for this sentence.

Please witness the assumtions the author makes about our talking snake -

Yet the Bible makes no mention of the serpent's creation nor does God provide any warning to the serpent to stay away from the tree.

The author had just finished saying that the creation of man occurs in Genesis 2. However, Genesis 1 explains the story of creation. God cleary creates living creatures in Genesis 1:24, and then creates humans in Genesis 1:26. I'm sure the 'serpent' is considered a living creature, as mentioned in Genesis 1:24.
Second, Why would God care if the 'serpent' ate from the tree? I don't see how that argument has any relevence to the author's point. God set up a special relationship between humans and God. Genesis 1:26-27. The 'Do not eat the fruit' rule was for humans only.

The story seems to be saying that God created not one but two sentient species

The story makes no such claim. In fact, many (including Liebling), believe that the 'serpent' was possessed by an angelic being.

A final note about the serpent - It is very possible that the creature mentioned in this story is no longer in existance today. Many species have become extinct, Dinosaurs, Dodo birds, other animals. It is very possible we have nothing resembling the creature in this story. I will not deny the possibility that it could have indeed been a 'snake', but there is always the possibility, this creature was not a 'snake'.

However, the author moves on....

-God is the all-knowing creator of everything.
-Since God is all-knowing, it means that at the moment that God put the tree into the garden, his omniscience would allow him to instantly know the entire course of human history.
-If God did not like what he knew that Adam would do, then why did God set it up that way? And why would God be at all surprised by what happens?

Nice! I like the way the author used the phrase 'let's take this one step further'.
So, let's take the author's perspective one step further.
Let's pretend God is All knowing. God Knows what will happen if Adam and Eve eat the fruit. However, God also knows what will happen if Adam and Eve don't eat the fruit. God knows all outcomes of all posibilities of every situation.
So now it is left up to Adam and Eve to decide what will happen, God knows both outcomes.

However, the author points something out -

God created Adam, so God designed the placement of every cell in Adam's body and brain. Therefore God knows all about human nature, and how Adam and Eve will think and react in every situation -- God is the one who created human nature.

Before I explain a logical explanation for this, I want to deal with a very subjective point of view.
You have choice. At some point you get to make your very own choice. Wether you choose to stop reading, wether you choose to go eat a sandwich, wether you choose to go check your Neopet, you have choice.
Imagine for a moment I told you that you have no choice. You have no will of your own. Imagine that every movement you make is controlled by a being who is goinng to punish or reward you depending on the choices he makes for you.
Doesn't make sense from a personal perspective.
Here's why it doesn't make logical sense.
God created humans to be in a loving relationship with him. If he forced all humans to love him, and follow him, and worship him, that's not real 'love'. Thats being a robot. If God wanted us to truely Love him, he had to give us the FREE choice to do so. Humans have the Free Choice to believe or not believe.

The author seems to disagree:

If God has pre-programmed Adam at the level of a five-year-old, or even a teenager, then it would be hard to get too mad at Adam for making a mistake.

if God has pre-programmed Adam at the level of a twenty-something, then Adam's entire world view, attitude, moral code, political stances, attitudes toward women and so on have been pre-set by God.

Other than the ability to speak, God had no reason to program anything.
Everything was new. Adam was free to develop his own view of things.
Take a look around Adam's environment for a second. Trees to eat from, Animals to play with, a wife to love, and God himself hanging out. In fact, what was complicated about Garden Life? One Law. Only ONE RULE.
Who can't follow ONE RULE!
Why was God surprised that Adam and Eve ate the fruit?
Because how simple was the rule?
God Made them. All they had to do was trust God. They chose to trust a serpent. The chose to eat the fruit. They chose to accept the consequences.
They Chose.
 
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