Original Sin

[Mistyrose]

I don't know anything about that church or situation that you mentioned. All I can say is baptizing babies is against Baptist doctrine. Of course, any church can put up a "Baptist" Church sign without really proving they are following Baptist doctrine. That's why people should carefully read the church's doctrinal statement and constitution before joining.

There is no biblical reason to ignore the baptism doctrine for special situations. Baptizing sick or dying babies won't change their spiritual status. Infants go to Heaven anyway.

I'm curious. Did the pastor actually baptize the babies by immersion?

No, thats what i was worried about at first that the pastor was going
to immerse the baby under the water, kinda like "drowning" lol!
No, what he did is, he held the baby in his arms in the water and kinda
like what Catholics do, sprinkled the water on her head after saying
prayers...I was amazed, really cuz that was so unusual for Baptist
church, i think.

 

[Reba]

No, thats what i was worried about at first that the pastor was going
to immerse the baby under the water, kinda like "drowning" lol!
No, what he did is, he held the baby in his arms in the water and kinda
like what Catholics do, sprinkled the water on her head after saying
prayers...I was amazed, really cuz that was so unusual for Baptist
church, i think.

You're right, that is so unusual. That's is nothing like Baptist baptism. Baptists don't baptize babies, and they don't "sprinkle" anyone. Very weird. Oh, well.

 

[DreamSlayer]

"Either way, it doesn't seem like anyone is going to debunk my points"
Yiffzer

Going back to the topic of Inherent Sin, your issue is that it was not a Jewish Concept at the time, and that within the Christian Bible it is only mentioned in Romans. (Romans 5)

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous

That's the simple answer to your question. The Christian Bible, specifically in Romans, says that through one individual's Sin, all were made sinners. 'ALL' were made sinners.

Genesis 8:21

21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done. NIV

...for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth. KJV

...even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. NASB

Man's heart is evil from youth. That's Old Testement. Christians may disagree philosophically, however, you have not presented scripture that conflicts, and I have a feeling that's what you are really trying to get at.

"No one could challenge the position of my points. Are they admitting that Christianity isn't that perfect?" - Yiffzer

The idea of Original Sin is not contrary to scripture.

Your points have not offered scripture to refute what is stated in the Bible. It is Agreed that there are only a few verses. It is Agreed that it wasn't spoken by Jesus. It is Agreed that it is not an overt Jewish belief. However; the belief that all are born sinners is not contrary to scripture.

I will agree that Christians aren't perfect. I will agree that some divine concepts may be beyond human understanding. Christianity isn't perfect?
Define Christianity?

If Christianity is an expression of how an individual worships, experiences, and follows Jesus, how can someone claim that one person's experience is better than another's?

Catholics, Baptists, etc? Who has it perfect?

Christianity isn't so much about following rules, or doing specific things (although some are important). It's about a relationship with Jesus. What Jesus did for us is perfect. How we respond to him, will it be perfect? Is that what you are trying to Judge?

Do all Christians Agree on issues? If they do not, does Christianity fail?

Baptism

Mark 16
15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
(Jesus speaking)

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
Whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Notice that baptism and belief are connected in the first statement, but not the second. Belief is required for salvation, but baptism is an expression of that belief. It is not Baptism that saves, only belief, and if you don't believe you will be condemned.

 

[jillio]

What about positive side? So easy to get into negative side than on the positive side.

Excuse me? I didn't men my explanation to be a negative. Just a simple proven fact of psychological, emotional, and cognitive developmental cycles in the human.

 

[christlovedeaf]

Excuse me? I didn't men my explanation to be a negative. Just a simple proven fact of psychological, emotional, and cognitive developmental cycles in the human.

Right, but what is the reason from developmental cycles, cognitive, emotional and psychological. Still they have lack of understanding the reason. If Adam and Eve didn't eat the forbidden fruit, what will it be like?

 

[jillio]

Right, but what is the reason from developmental cycles, cognitive, emotional and psychological. Still they have lack of understanding the reason. If Adam and Eve didn't eat the forbidden fruit, what will it be like?

The reasons are biological.

 

[christlovedeaf]

The reasons are biological.

Biological from who and how?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index.php?qid=20070412122558AAUOiDt

Notice that some people have agreed with me?

http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/relg/historygeography/TheFirstBookofAdamandEve/chap8.html

Notice how it stated that Satan was the one who came up with the concept of marriage?
The First Book of Adam and Eve - Chapter LXX

hmmmm interesting link... and also your other link as well in your post #68
http://www.alldeaf.com/762164-post68.html

 

[Liebling:-)))]

That's not from the Bible.

Theory...


The belief author wrote the bible differently as theorist who see the logic between the bible and fact. I see nothing wrong to compare between the bible and real life.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

MOD NOTE:

I have already warned of telling specific groups not to post in any thread - one more time, you will be given an infraction.

As for atheists, they do have a right to post in Christianty threads - in fact, I do know of some that are very knowledgeable about the Bible, Christianity, religion- and they offer a very different point of view. You would find it interesting, reading what they have to offer.

Again, I strongly state that all are allowed to post in any thread they please, as long as they are aware of this statement posted in the Forum Rules:
"Even though we support freedom of speech, show some respect, use common sense, and keep an open mind when participating in discussions."

Thank you for convince ADers...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

2nd - Eve believed the Serpent, and didn't believe God.

Because Serpent told them that he is an angel since they know that angels are with God. How could they know that one of angels are bad?

Pretend you tell a friend not to go into a room.
Someone else tells your friend to go into the room.
If your friend goes into the room, they have chosen not to believe you. They have also basically called you a liar. Eve and Adam must have believed that God was a liar, or they wouldn't have eaten the fruit.

There're no comparision because Eve and Adam are naive like every babies who begin to learn what wrong or right. We were being taught since we were babies what wrong and right... God created Eve and Adam as woman and man, not babies.

Side note - Don't think Adam was innocent, Adam had seen the fruit before. It's not like Eve walked up, showed him a fruit he didn't recognise, and he ate it without question. He probably knew exactly what he was eating.

Simple is their curiously like everyone... Do you experience your curiously before?

3rd - Adam and Eve gained somekind of knowledge. Knowledge of Good and Evil. What does that mean? I don't know, I could guess, but all I know is that it couldn't be given back. It couldn't be taken away. This is the reason that Adam and Eve had to be removed from the Garden.

Eve and Adam are like naughty children and tried out of curiously... Why can't God forgave their ONE mistake instead of kick them out of garden and let them acheive their own life.... no forgive or loving from God.... Eve and Adam still positive their children about God.... and regret their one mistake... It would be different story if they repeat their mistake but they made only ONE mistake... Oh please....


That's why I beleive those Original sin is from traditional religion theological. I guess those situtation over over Eve and Adam are a fairy-tale story.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

You asked me to analyze your belief and your meaning of original sin so here it is:

It makes sense because it is the first thing we all have done as sinners, but how can babies sin? They all do is gurgle and make baby noises, how can they be sinners if they do not know what they really are doing in most cases? Sure, they can be mischevious sometimes, but it is merely in their nature to test their parents to see if the parents can show that they can do good parenting. I'm sure you or your sister have given your parents a hard time when you or your sister were babies. We all probably did give our parents a hard time, right? I know I sure did as a baby. But that doesn't mean babies are sinners if they have not yet developed full cognitive process.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

From my theology the sin of Adam by which all humankind fell from God's grace. So, each person is born guilty of sinful nature, even babies. You don't have to do something that is a sin, we all born under control of the sinful future generations, all because of Adam and Eve. Thanks to them.

No, thank to God for plant the tree of knowledge in first place to test Eve and Adam.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Yea, I know what you mean Defee, I don't think Catholic really understand an original sin really means, It really means we all suffer consequences in life (environment of sin) We become guilty of sin when we commit sin, not before, being baptized does nothing, really it seems a wasted. Some people believe once you're baptized you're home free, safe, and entering the Kingdom of God. No, No , No.

Every beleivers have different beliefs that's where they raised to beleive differently... like what I mentioned about catholic where I was raised in first page of thread here. None of us thought about original sin but keep talk about sin until a creator brought good point about the difference between original sin and sin because of babies issues here.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Babies can only coo when smilin' ..what else ? hmm Babies can see people's faces and smile at them. If, babies cry - it's their communication to let the parents to know that they are hungry, or their diapers are wet, or want to be loved by holdin' or talk to them by hearin' parents' voices. So, therefore the babies don't know what a sin is. Babies are innocent. If, anythin' should happen to them -- they will go to Heaven.

AGREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Liebling:-)))]

what happen if you drink Drano? You would be dead physically. When God said you can eat anything except one, the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If you eat forbidden fruit, you surely will die. God meant, spiritually dead, it kill the spirit, that is where sin took over and poison in them and it is passing down throughout the generation. Sin stained us, its not what we do, it's part of the nature of sin. Like rich man ask Jesus, what should we do, when we inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus knew his limitations, and said, follow the laws. Rich man said, I follow all 10 commandments since I was young. And Jesus said, then give all what you have. Why did Jesus say that? It is because that's apply the 10 commandments and try to emphasize, no one made it, why? Sin. Like some of us try to point out, sin is not something only wrong doing, sin also meant our limitation compare our lives and God Himself.

Remember, Eve and Adam are like newbies/children and have no idea what is this and curiously...

It's same thing with the children... The parents told them to not drink domestic household then they will die... guess what... they drank... and die or save life... who is the responsible? Of course the parents... I parent put domestic household away for children's safety.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Quick correction to a previous ADer post:

Baptists do NOT baptize infants.

Oh yes, many Baptists baptize infants as same as catholic, protestant, and luthern except JW. I withnessed them...

Atheists and Agnostics don't baptize their babies until their babies are old enough to decide which belief they want to have baptize. It's also JW as well... JW don't baptize their babies until their babies are old enough to accept their belief then.......

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Well, we cant challenge you on this one cuz we cant prove that
Christianity is perfect, it is not really perfect, all religions are not
perfect, really. Too many confusing facts and versions, ugh.
Just like life is full of mystery, right? same thing.
You just asked many perplexing questions that just really hard to
answer, Yiffzer..maybe that is why no one is answering you, I
cant, sorry. So dont get depressed, cuz i am too.I wish i can
get answers myself! Ohhh well..guess i will when i die and go
to Heaven then i will get my answers! lol!

You understood at last but why you call yourself as a Christian when you claim in your post like this? It sound Agnostic to me.. ? I said the same thing as you in my some posts at several threads?

I saw some believers who know a lot about their beliefs and give you answer what they know everything... I doesn't mean 100% but give you good answer.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

The point about original sin, Jesus did not mention the word "original sin". Original sin we have explained and nothing is complicating to understand about "original sin".

That's what I thought so.

It is very clear, penalty of sin is not what we do, it's who we were born from. Sin enter the moment Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. "Forbidden fruit" is like Snow White who ate poison apple. Forbidden fruit didn't kill Adam and Eve in physical, but spiritual. that lead separation from God. Before they ate forbidden fruit, they were naked and it's not shame, till the time they ate the forbidden fruit, they acknowledge there shame of nakedness. They no longer has the image of God. The meaning of image of God? Same mind, spirit,emotion. Not meant body image. It poison the blood and been handing down to us, till Immanuel-Jesus took our place on the cross.

• 
  Jesus said, "Go ye therefore, teach all nation and baptise in the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit". How can you teach babies? Babies is in God's hand. We have the knowledge and freewill. We made a choice everyday. Salvation only thru Christ alone. Just like Noah warned people of the flood and they are welcoming in the ark, but they mocked. Similar about Jesus Christ. Today they doubt "flood" (meaning destructions as described by John, Daniel, Ezekiel, and other prophets.

But Eve and Adam are newbies/babies like babies who have no idea what good or bad.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Right, babies are born with no knowledge. It is the parents that have to teach them faith among a billion other things.

Exactly!!! It's same thing with Eve & Adam... They are newbies and have no knowledge so they began to learn more everyday...