Oral Deaf Education Schools of today

shel90.......ditto! The reason I am SO vocal about Sign and deaf culture for most dhh kids is 100% simple. I'm not anti oral skills. I think oral skills are a great thing. BUT there's NO WAY that constant harping on how a dhh kid pronounces speech, and constantly trying to improve their language can be good for them. I did have more then decent speech skills.......but they didn't allow me to have total and complete equality in the hearing world. I still got teased, tormented and ostracized b/c of my voice. I mean it was EXTREME! Not just normal childhood bullying......but stuff like boys making nasty phone calls to me, just being totally and completely isolated, thinking I was the ONLY dhh kid in the entire world.....god one time I even got an obsence letter sent to me! Quite a lot of the torment I went through really contribuated to the depression that I have. I do remember reading (can't remmy where) that "oral" people tend to have higher rates of mental illness, then TCers. I mean how the hell can a kid develop good self esteem when they are ALWAYS being corrected on stupid nuances of speech? Or being yelled at b/c they're not moduating their voice or whatever.....
I still get those dumb assholes who think that just b/c I have a "deaf" sounding voice I MUST be retarded. NOTHING can really reduce that "deaf voice" AT ALL. It's still very obvious.
Deafskeptic.......actually that's another good point....I think that's another thing oral schools should work on. They should have a "voice on" philosophy in the classroom, but allow Sign out of the classroom. One of the saddest pics I've ever seen is of a pic on Clarke's site of a witchie-poo old lady speech therapist, wearing some complicated FM device while sitting at a lunch table filled with deaf kids.
 
deafdyke said:
Deafskeptic.......actually that's another good point....I think that's another thing oral schools should work on. They should have a "voice on" philosophy in the classroom, but allow Sign out of the classroom. One of the saddest pics I've ever seen is of a pic on Clarke's site of a witchie-poo old lady speech therapist, wearing some complicated FM device while sitting at a lunch table filled with deaf kids.
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Oh yeah those FM systems. Just when I managed to forget those painful headphones, you hafta go remind me of 'em. :P Good thing no children will have to suffer those headphones nowadays!

FMs have worked well for me but I'm not nearly so trusting of loop systems as they have never worked well for me. Maybe that will change with my implant.
 
Deafdyke: I wanted to point out an inconsistency in what you say. On the one hand, you claim AG Bell (the organization, not the man) is the bulwark of Oral-only education, of the idea that signing is a special-needs skill. On the other hand, you use the presence of terps and signers at AG Bell conferences to demonstrate that many oral deaf prefer (or at least acknowledge the need for) ASL.

The people at the conferences are the organization; the organization is them. Doesn't that suggest that the organization acknowledges that signing is a good thing in many (if not all) cases? If you do a search on their site for ASL or sign, you'll find that they mention it in a relatively neutral way, and they do encourage parents to explore *all* their options, including purely visual options and mixed visual/auditory options. They do direct parents who want to use ASL - or TC methods - to contact the NAD, but that's not surprising; their focus is on oral methods. They can't be everything to everyone, just as the NAD can't be everything to everyone.

There will always be oral-only extremists, yes, just as there will always be extremists in every spectrum of human culture. But that's no reason to blame the mainstream for the action of the extremists, and it's no reason to alienate those who are making every effort to learn from your position, even if they eventually choose their own path.
 
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The people at the conferences are the organization; the organization is them. Doesn't that suggest that the organization acknowledges that signing is a good thing in many (if not all) cases? If you do a search on their site for ASL or sign, you'll find that they mention it in a relatively neutral way, and they do encourage parents to explore *all* their options, including purely visual options and mixed visual/auditory options. They do direct parents who want to use ASL - or TC methods - to contact the NAD,
ismi.......It's not quite an inconsistancy. It's more......*tries to think how to explain it* Ah.....got it! As you may or may not know AG Bell is divided into sections, like the Parents Section, the Oral Deaf Adult section, Professionals, and maybe even a Kid's Section.
The Oral Deaf adults have a mixed view on ASL and Deaf culture as a whole.
However the section that has the most influence are the Parents and the Professionals. It really is their view that tends to hold sway.
I am aware that they mention ASL and they do try to present all options. However, that seems to be very tokenist. They really do try to push oralism as some wonderful glorious utopia. Look at the language, and phrases and things they use! It's very "unspoken" that oralism and mainstreaming is some sort of Glorious Utopia.
 
Banjo said:
Just curious, how many of you are fully aware of AG Bell's history... besides fact that he worked with the deaf?

For many who aren't aware, you may be shocked to learn of his philosophies and political activities. I wrote a blog entry on it a while ago.

Banjo's World: Alexander Graham Bell, the Greatest Canadian… or the Worst?
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It would be helpful to explain what eugenics are to some posters. I've known this about AG Bell for a long time which is one reason why I'm wary of oral only movement. I'm a bit wary of all extremes to be honest.

While Deaf may not view themselves as disabled, Hearing who support eugenics will view them as humans with defects. In some cases, they'll consider them unfit for the Human Race. I wish that weren't true.


If you want to know more about the historical eugenics movement in America, this site is a good one to visit. I assure you that this site will shock you.

Eugenics also played a big part in Germany's history and it was heavily influnced by the American Eugenics movement.

As for the current eugenics movement, I'm wary of it despite the reassurances that it's not like the eugenics movement in the 30s and the 40s.
 
No it doesn't surprise me about AG Bell. Eugenics was a mainstream belief at one time, along with the belief that whites were superior to blacks etc and sterilisation of "undesirables" was common. He was a child of his times I suppose. Today we would be outraged because we know better and have more good science behind our belts but back then, people would nod in agreement.

It certainly helps to understand why there is such a backlash against oralism if that is what it's associated with in the minds of some.
 
It certainly helps to understand why there is such a backlash against oralism if that is what it's associated with in the minds of some.
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And yet sometimes I think we haven't moved on that much.......Like it does seem like a lot of the "healthy normal" parents just want superfically perfect designer kids.....Shades of eugenics, and good ol' boy "Keep them damn minorities down boys. Survival of the fittest" style thinking.
 
deafdyke said:
And yet sometimes I think we haven't moved on that much.......Like it does seem like a lot of the "healthy normal" parents just want superfically perfect designer kids.....Shades of eugenics, and good ol' boy "Keep them damn minorities down boys. Survival of the fittest" style thinking.
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Oh, I agree. The educational pressure on kids is intense and at time very extreme. And that's just the hearing kids. I remember a cartoon about parents trying to decide between designer embryos and wondering if they should chose one with "doctor" or "lawyer" genes.
 
deafdyke said:
And yet sometimes I think we haven't moved on that much.......Like it does seem like a lot of the "healthy normal" parents just want superfically perfect designer kids.....Shades of eugenics, and good ol' boy "Keep them damn minorities down boys. Survival of the fittest" style thinking.
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Wow that is a strong statement DD. You truly feel that we haven't moved on much since the bad days of eugenics? :eek3:

I accept there are jerk parents out there (my mother, a deaf educator had told me about such examples). But most parents of deaf children that I've come across care about their children and truly love them. My mother saw oral education as a way of increasing my opportunities in life, not because she wanted a "perfect, designer" child. I refuse to believe that she is in the minority here.
 
R2D2 said:
Wow that is a strong statement DD. You truly feel that we haven't moved on much since the bad days of eugenics? :eek3:

I accept there are jerk parents out there (my mother, a deaf educator had told me about such examples). But most parents of deaf children that I've come across care about their children and truly love them. My mother saw oral education as a way of increasing my opportunities in life, not because she wanted a "perfect, designer" child. I refuse to believe that she is in the minority here.
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Most are like your mom from what I can tell. However, it's also true a few parents (usually those in professional occupations but not always) are also jerks who tend to get upset if children don't get into the right schools. FWIW, I grew up in a upper-middle class neighborhood and the competition for entering the "Right Schools" can be intense. I'd hate to be the deaf child of those parents!
 
deafdyke said:
And yet sometimes I think we haven't moved on that much.......Like it does seem like a lot of the "healthy normal" parents just want superfically perfect designer kids.....Shades of eugenics, and good ol' boy "Keep them damn minorities down boys. Survival of the fittest" style thinking.
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Let me put it this way, Utopia does not exsist in this world. The survial of the fittest will continue......that's why it's important to make sure that our children are equipted to survive in this world. Improvements HAVE been made in education and exceptance of those with disablities (for those who are deaf and hoh and don't condider it a disablity I'd say they should make sure they don't collect SSI/SSDI since they are capable of doing anything) Things will continue to improve and life will go on.....

As for this statement by deafskeptic >>> The educational pressure on kids is intense and at time very extreme.>>>> The education recieved by kids today isn't all that great. Try looking at the tests given at an 8th grade level back in the early 1900's , late 1800's. Most hs seniors (and probably many of people with BA's and AA's) probably would have a heck of a time answering those questions.....especially those that have to do with English and Science and Math.
 
DD, I always hear you make statements about "hearing parents" such as this
"And yet sometimes I think we haven't moved on that much.......Like it does seem like a lot of the "healthy normal" parents just want superfically perfect designer kids.....Shades of eugenics, and good ol' boy "Keep them damn minorities down boys. Survival of the fittest" style thinking".
As we all know, I am involved with CID in St.Louis. Before sept of this year, I was there every day with the exception of 5 days per month, observing my daughters cless. While observing the classes, I also observed ither parents that were doing the same thing. While aobserving your child and another parents is sittin next to you aobserving their child, you strike up conversations with them. While I cannot say your abouve quote is wrong, because I would imagine there are avery few pepople like this. But I can assure you that I have never met another parent like you describe. I have never heard a hearing parent even slightly imply their child is anything but healthy and normal. Every parent I have met is 100% dedicated to ensuring their child is prepared for real life. They are not intersted in "designer children" or making theier child the way they want them to be. In fact, one of the things that many parents at CID say (including myself) is one of the main reasons we chose to send our child to CID is the fact that the child is allowed to be an individual. They are allowed to express themselves in their own uniques way. After visiting other oral schools, I and others immediately fell in love with CID because of the fell of the place and the informal environment. If this is one of the reasons that we chose to send our children there, doesnt this contradict you stating that we are trying to change our children?
AS I said, I do not know a single hearing p, wait, I just thought of one. Well, SHe is the excpetion nevermind. With the excpetion of one parent, I do not know any other that does not accept the fact that their child is deaf. We are not trying to change anything about our children, we are simply giving them what we feel they need to be best prepared for success throughout their lives.
AS far as the old school oppression, if that were the case, wouldnt we have forced our kids to some residential school where we could forget about them? I describe these parents in a different manner. I call the parents that see their childs as accessories as the "look at my beautiful kids, they match my couch" parents. You know the type, the dump the imperfectt kids and have more in hopes of having the perfect child.
These parents are simply too ignorant to realize that because the child does not hear, does nopt mean the child is not healthy or perfect.
 
jag said:
As for this statement by deafskeptic >>> The educational pressure on kids is intense and at time very extreme.>>>> The education recieved by kids today isn't all that great. Try looking at the tests given at an 8th grade level back in the early 1900's , late 1800's. Most hs seniors (and probably many of people with BA's and AA's) probably would have a heck of a time answering those questions.....especially those that have to do with English and Science and Math.
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I was referring to those parents who have the money to get the kids into the very best private schools and college. I should have made that clear.

I don't think education should have to a social darwinist struggle for survival. A lot of those parents have a social darwinist mentality when it comes to education.
 
I am currently a school resource officer in a jr. high school. In other words, I am a cop that works in a jr high. I see every cross section of social class. It becomes painfully clear very quickly by watching these kids, who will be an educational and social success, and who will be a failure.
After meeting and seeing some of the parents, you can really see why the child is the product of tyheir environment. I do have to say there I know that there are some kids that will be the exception to the rule. I am glad that these kids will prove me wrong. In facty, I am one of the kids that would prove the theory wrong. But, whether the school is for the deaf, or hearing, a child that wants to succeed will prevail. The child that does not care enough to apply himself, will not ever reach his real pontential
 
deafskeptic said:
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I don't think education should have to a social darwinist struggle for survival. A lot of those parents have a social darwinist mentality when it comes to education.
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I agree it ought not be generally speaking. But, I don't see how there not be some competition built into the system. What is life but a struggle for survival...eh? When one thinks about it, it is healthy in one sense. The working world is essentially set up in a "social darwinist mentality". There are certain expectations for one being employed by a firm and if one doesn't measure up...well one will be looking for something else. I think of the stories of kids graduating from college with "great expectations" of hugh salaries, perks, benefits, and the whole kaboodle. Obviously, some of the best and brightest might start off with a bang but it certainly is not true for the rest. If it coddles them with a false sense of entitlement, then the educational system failed them in more ways than one. Education should have elements of struggle and achievement of hard things. That is the only way to feel like one has accomplished something worthwhile. That easily transfers to the working world and life beyond. Life is unfair but it always was and modern society hasn't eliminated that element. No two people are equal in ability hence the rat race...
 
Banjo said:
Well, from what I know... it wasn't that long ago that students were being punished for signing in classrooms. In fact, they were still doing it in some places in the early 80s.

But a lot has changed since then.
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From my experience, as late as 1988 in my son's deaf/hh preschool class.
 
shel90 said:
I got emotionally damaged from that philosophy of "oral skills make dhh kids totally equal to hearing kids." I WISH the parents especially the parents of CI children would understand that and give their deaf children the full toolbox. It saddens me when I see parents who refuse to learn ASL just because they think their kids do just find with oral skills. there is nothing wrong with providing both so what is the big deal with ASL for those parents? Afraid that ASL will impede their ability to learn how to use their voices or what??
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That's exactly what I was told by the so called experts. "If you allow him to use sign, he willnever work hard enough to use his voice because the sign is easier for him." Duh!! Go figure.
 
sr171soars said:
I agree it ought not be generally speaking. But, I don't see how there not be some competition built into the system. What is life but a struggle for survival...eh? When one thinks about it, it is healthy in one sense. The working world is essentially set up in a "social darwinist mentality". There are certain expectations for oneI being employed by a firm and if one doesn't measure up...well one will be looking for something else. I think of the stories of kids graduating from college with "great expectations" of hugh salaries, perks, benefits, and the whole kaboodle. Obviously, some of the best and brightest might start off with a bang but it certainly is not true for the rest. If it coddles them with a false sense of entitlement, then the educational system failed them in more ways than one. Education should have elements of struggle and achievement of hard things. That is the only way to feel like one has accomplished something worthwhile. That easily transfers to the working world and life beyond. Life is unfair but it always was and modern society hasn't eliminated that element. No two people are equal in ability hence the rat race...
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Yeah I agree some competition is needed for a sense of accomplishment . However, it's unrealistic and unhealthy to stake your entire future on a single test or to think your entire future rest on a single test. That's putting way too much pressure on yourself. Parents are losing it if they decide that it's already too late for their fifth grader to enter college based on current difficulties.

I do have a fairly strong competitive streak and I've been guilty of staking my entire future on a test in the past. Being competitive needs to be put in balance sometimes.
 
jillio said:
That's exactly what I was told by the so called experts. "If you allow him to use sign, he willnever work hard enough to use his voice because the sign is easier for him." Duh!! Go figure.
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Shel90's and your posts brings back memories of my father telling me to not to lose my speech skills when I entered Va School for the Deaf in Staunton. He was afraid signing would cause me to lose my speech skills.

People don't seem to realize that sign doesn't affect speech at all. :roll:
 
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