'Open Carry' Law Contoversy: Gun Owner Cited

[Reba]

Motivation can be implied through behavior and attitude.

But I'll ask you the same. How would you know that their motivation was completely good?

I don't automatically assume someone carrying concealed is a vigilante wannabe. I've talked with many permitted carriers, and they have all said that having an armed confrontation is the last thing they want.

Self-defense isn't vigilantism.

 

[jillio]

Ah, like an armed robber without a CCW? Yes, that sign would definitely stop an armed robber.

I see you failed to grasp the concept as well. There is a legal premise behind posting the sign, and it really isn't that difficult to figure out what that might be. Unless, of course, you simply don't want to.

 

[Jiro]

No, Charlie Bronson was a vigilante. I am talking about people committing crimes of passion. And it happens in real life on a daily basis.

if you backtrack - you'll see that we were talking about a vigilante prowling in dangerous trying to be a superhero. Crime of Passion was on other post.

Let me pull up an extreme case of what can be termed a crime of passion, as vindication was the heart of the matter: Columbine. That was a very public place.

Columbine? Crime of Passion? Let's not kid ourself... You know very well that "crime of passion" mainly refers to love gone wrong between 2 lovers.

and beside - why are you referring to Columbine? It's illegal to bring firearms to school property and it's illegal for children to carry or operate gun without adult supervision. Why do you keep referring to criminals and not law-abiding armed citizens?

You are basically proving our points that we need to protect ourselves from criminals who can illegally obtain firearms and we legally can't.

 

[Jiro]

Motivation can be implied through behavior and attitude.

But I'll ask you the same. How would you know that their motivation was completely good?

Thought Police, I see... You must be a big fan of Minority Report.

Here's how I know - I don't know and I don't care but I'd like to know I can protect myself against those with evil intention.

 

[jillio]

I don't automatically assume someone carrying concealed is a vigilante wannabe. I've talked with many permitted carriers, and they have all said that having an armed confrontation is the last thing they want.

Self-defense isn't vigilantism.

Neither do I. But people carrying in certain places with no valid reason for doing so leave themselves open to the suspicion. Particularly when saying things like "but the grocery store was in a bad area."

 

[Reba]

I never thought of Columbine as a crime of passion...

Me either. The Columbine attack was premeditated and planned, which goes against the definition of crime of passion.

From legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com :

"crime of passion n. a defendant's excuse for committing a crime due to sudden anger or heartbreak, in order to eliminate the element of "premeditation." This usually arises in murder or attempted murder cases, when a spouse or sweetheart finds his/her "beloved" having sexual intercourse with another and shoots or stabs one or both of the coupled pair. To make this claim the defendant must have acted immediately upon the rise of passion, without the time for contemplation or allowing for "a cooling of the blood." It is sometimes called the "Law of Texas" since juries in that state are supposedly lenient to cuckolded lovers who wreak their own vengeance. The benefit of eliminating premeditation is to lessen the provable homicide to manslaughter with no death penalty and limited prison terms. An emotionally charged jury may even acquit the impassioned defendant. (See: murder, manslaughter)"

 

[Reba]

Neither do I. But people carrying in certain places with no valid reason for doing so leave themselves open to the suspicion. Particularly when saying things like "but the grocery store was in a bad area."

It depends on what you mean by "no valid reason."

 

[jillio]

Thought Police, I see... You must be a big fan of Minority Report.

Here's how I know - I don't know and I don't care but I'd like to know I can protect myself against those with evil intention.

Nope. Has nothing to do with thought policing. Has to do with proven ways of predicting future behavior based on past and present behavior and attitudes. It's called science and math. You know, the study of patterns and probabilities, and all that boring stuff.

 

[Jiro]

I see you failed to grasp the concept as well. There is a legal premise behind posting the sign, and it really isn't that difficult to figure out what that might be. Unless, of course, you simply don't want to.

A posted sign is not a matter of legality. It's just a store policy. "Legal" is referring to law created by government, not private business. I've never heard of a person getting arrested for breaking a store rule

It's illegal to carry a gun into any government building such as municipal court because it's a law and you can get arrested for it.

It's not illegal to carry a gun into any private establishment and you can get banished from it if there is a sign posted on wall prohibiting firearm on premise.

 

[deafskeptic]

Me either. The Columbine attack was premeditated and planned, which goes against the definition of crime of passion.

From legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com :

"crime of passion n. a defendant's excuse for committing a crime due to sudden anger or heartbreak, in order to eliminate the element of "premeditation." This usually arises in murder or attempted murder cases, when a spouse or sweetheart finds his/her "beloved" having sexual intercourse with another and shoots or stabs one or both of the coupled pair. To make this claim the defendant must have acted immediately upon the rise of passion, without the time for contemplation or allowing for "a cooling of the blood." It is sometimes called the "Law of Texas" since juries in that state are supposedly lenient to cuckolded lovers who wreak their own vengeance. The benefit of eliminating premeditation is to lessen the provable homicide to manslaughter with no death penalty and limited prison terms. An emotionally charged jury may even acquit the impassioned defendant. (See: murder, manslaughter)"

I'm interested in jillio's reasoning behind that. I do have a good idea why she might think it's a crime of passion. It's just not the lover's kind of passion.

 

[Jiro]

There may be a very good reason why the gun needs to be taken out of his hands. It certainly sounds as if his attitude is representative of a person who thinks they have something to prove.

how did you come up with that since you mentioned "I don't know. I wasn't there."

 

[Jiro]

I'm interested in jillio's reasoning behind that. I do have a good idea why she might think it's a crime of passion. It's just not the lover's kind of passion.

simple - just like Brady Campaign people... they'll conveniently fit any emotionally-charged words into their agenda to garner public support and knee-jerk reactions from legislators to further restriction guns.... or to ban guns.

 

[jillio]

A posted sign is not a matter of legality. It's just a store policy. "Legal" is referring to law created by government, not private business. I've never heard of a person getting arrested for breaking a store rule

It's illegal to carry a gun into any government building such as municipal court because it's a law and you can get arrested for it.

It's not illegal to carry a gun into any private establishment and you can get banished from it if there is a sign posted on wall prohibiting firearm on premise.

If a sign is posted, and something illegal occurs with someone who has a weapon that has been prohibited according to the sign, and someone gets shot, the person who was injured or his/her family cannot come back and sue the establishment for negligence or damages. That is what I was referring to as "covering their butt". That holds true whether it is a CCW, an open carry, or a no carry state. It is considered to be a reasonable precaution.

 

[jillio]

I'm interested in jillio's reasoning behind that. I do have a good idea why she might think it's a crime of passion. It's just not the lover's kind of passion.

Because it was a crime committed from an emotional reasoning. People tend to think that crime of passion can only occur between lovers, or something akin to that.

 

[jillio]

simple - just like Brady Campaign people... they'll conveniently fit any emotionally-charged words into their agenda to garner public support and knee-jerk reactions from legislators to further restriction guns.... or to ban guns.

Please don't speak for me. I am perfectly capable of explaining my own posts. It has nothing to do with the Brady law.

 

[jillio]

how did you come up with that since you mentioned "I don't know. I wasn't there."

Because there could be a good reason. I am drawing my conclusions from the report posted. Are you saying that there is no possiblity that this guy could have had the attitude of having something to prove? All I said was that is was possible that he could have needed the gun taken away.

 

[Jiro]

Please don't speak for me. I am perfectly capable of explaining my own posts. It has nothing to do with the Brady law.

Brady Campaign, not Brady law. because you think like that. your reasoning is same as theirs.

btw - if you check how effective Brady Law was.... you will find that prosecution and conviction under Brady Law was rare.

meaning... it was a colossal waste of time and a serious misuse of federal funding.

 

[Jiro]

Because there could be a good reason. I am drawing my conclusions from the report posted. Are you saying that there is no possiblity that this guy could have had the attitude of having something to prove? All I said was that is was possible that he could have needed the gun taken away.

nope. never happened. he has done it many times at many stores. no incident had happened. the only incident I hear all the time is poor citizens in gun-ban state being robbed and killed by criminals who had an easy access to illegally obtain guns.

 

[Jiro]

Because it was a crime committed from an emotional reasoning. People tend to think that crime of passion can only occur between lovers, or something akin to that.

is premeditation part of crime of passion?

 

[Jiro]

If a sign is posted, and something illegal occurs with someone who has a weapon that has been prohibited according to the sign, and someone gets shot, the person who was injured or his/her family cannot come back and sue the establishment for negligence or damages. That is what I was referring to as "covering their butt". That holds true whether it is a CCW, an open carry, or a no carry state. It is considered to be a reasonable precaution.

so it covers establishment's ass when it comes to legal issue for whatever happened on its property but it does not hold a bearing as "law" for anybody on its property therefore you cannot get arrested nor criminally charged for breaking a store policy in a state that legally allows it.