Oh no, $419 Billion

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Magatsu said:
Um, I am not even talking about war... (related to retarded budget)

but I am not feel up to debate about this topic anyway.

No debate? Are you feeling OK Magatsu?

No matter who was in office, a republican or a democrat, the Pentagon would have been asking for more money. It happens every year and the increase they are asking for isn't out of the norm, no matter who is in office.
 
I understand what you mean but frankly, it is no use to debate about it any further since you and I have different opinion in this matter.
 
Taylor said:
Re-read the article




" It was only a matter of time before it hit US soil and 9/11 would have happened no matter who was in office.

I have never been scared to ride a bus, eat at a pizza parlor, or vote. In reality, these are targets for terrorism and citizens in other countries live in fear of riding the bus or getting a pizza because of suicide bombers. Bush should be commended for fighting to keep it out of our country. Americans didn't worry about terrorism because it was rare that any Americans would have encountered it."



I do not know whether to laugh or cry.
The Bush junta planned and engineered 911, deal with it.

Don't you think it odd that there was ONLY that one incident of a, ahem, "terrorist attack" (911)?
Why, man, our borders are wide open, people flock across it practically unchecked on a daily basis. It would be a SUPREMELY EASY matter for, ahem, "terrorists" to sneak across to wreak more havoc. But it hasn't. Don't you think that is odd?
I don't.
 
Beowulf said:
Taylor said:
Re-read the article




. It was only a matter of time before it hit US soil and 9/11 would have happened no matter who was in office.

I have never been scared to ride a bus, eat at a pizza parlor, or vote. In reality, these are targets for terrorism and citizens in other countries live in fear of riding the bus or getting a pizza because of suicide bombers. Bush should be commended for fighting to keep it out of our country. Americans didn't worry about terrorism because it was rare that any Americans would have encountered it.

I do not know whether to laugh or cry.
The Bush junta planned and engineered 911, deal with it.

Don't you think it odd that there was ONLY that one incident of a, ahem, "terrorist attack" (911)?
Why, man, our borders are wide open, people flock across it practically unchecked on a daily basis. It would be a SUPREMELY EASY matter for, ahem, "terrorists" to sneak across to wreak more havoc. But it hasn't. Don't you think that is odd?
I don't.


OK......You don't think there was any planning of 9/11 prior to Bush? What about the terrorist attacks in other countries? Remember those couple of missles Clinton shot at Bin-Laden? What was that in retaliation for? Terrorism has been around for decades.

And I agree, our borders are wide open and have been a problem for A LONG time. The anti-bush crowd has a ball everytime he says he wants to tighten the borders. They claim Bush is a racist because they think it is everyones right to sneak into the US and mooch off of our health care and welfare systems and take jobs away from Americans.

Hey...you know my foster sister Michele that browses this forum? Why don't you face her and tell her that "The Bush junta planned and engineered 911". She lost more than 1 family member on 9/11 so I'm sure she'd appreciate your sentiment.
 
Beowulf said:
Taylor said:
Re-read the article




" It was only a matter of time before it hit US soil and 9/11 would have happened no matter who was in office.

I have never been scared to ride a bus, eat at a pizza parlor, or vote. In reality, these are targets for terrorism and citizens in other countries live in fear of riding the bus or getting a pizza because of suicide bombers. Bush should be commended for fighting to keep it out of our country. Americans didn't worry about terrorism because it was rare that any Americans would have encountered it."



I do not know whether to laugh or cry.
The Bush junta planned and engineered 911, deal with it.

Don't you think it odd that there was ONLY that one incident of a, ahem, "terrorist attack" (911)?
Why, man, our borders are wide open, people flock across it practically unchecked on a daily basis. It would be a SUPREMELY EASY matter for, ahem, "terrorists" to sneak across to wreak more havoc. But it hasn't. Don't you think that is odd?
I don't.

Only one? Bush planned it? Forgot this one?

Trade Center bombing
The World Trade Center bombing refers to the 1993 attack in the garage of the New York City World Trade Center. For information on the 2001 terrorist attack, see: September 11 Terrorist Attacks.

Before the attacks
A man named Ramzi Yousef entered the United States with a false Iraqi passport in 1992. Police found instructions on making a bomb in Yousef's partner's luggage. The name Abu Barra, which was an alias of Mohammed Jamal Khalifa, appeared in the manuals.
Therefore, his partner was arrested on the spot for his false passport and his bomb-making instructions. At the time, INS holding cells were overcrowded, so the authorities told Yousef to come back in one month. Yousef set up residence in Jersey City, New Jersey and travelled around New York and New Jersey and called Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, a controversial Muslim preacher, via cell phone. Yousef got the manuals back from his partner. He got conspirators and tried obtaining mixing chemicals to make a bomb. After a hospital stay from a car accident, Yousef got back the manuals from his car, which was in a police impound.

El Sayyid Nosair, who was one of Sheikh Rahman's men and who would later be convicted for the bombing, was arrested in 1991 for the murder of rabbi Meir Kahane. A man named Mahmud Abouhalima, who was later convicted in the bombing, told a man named Wadih el Hage to buy the assault rifle used in the Kahane shooting. Nosair was acquitted of murder but convicted of gun charges. There were dozens of bomb-making manuals and documents related to terrorist plots found in the apartment, but they had not been translated into the English language from the Arabic language.

Yousef stole or rented a Ryder van that was to be used in the attacks. If Yousef had more funds, he would have used a truck bomb. The van that he used has 295 cubic feet of space, which would hold up to 1,000 kilograms of explosives. However, the van was not filled to capacity.


The bomb
Yousef's complex 600 kilogram bomb was made of urea pellets, nitroglycerin, sulfuric acid, aluminum azide, magnesium azide, and bottled hydrogen. He added sodium cyanide to the mix as the vapors could go through the ventilation shafts and elevators of the towers. The van that Yousef used had four twenty-foot long fuses, all covered in surgical tubing. Yousef calculated that the fuse would trigger the bomb in twelve minutes after he would use a cheap cigarette lighter to light the fuse.
He wanted to prevent smoke from escaping the towers, therefore, catching the public eye by poisoning people inside. He foresaw Tower One collapsing onto Tower Two after the blast would occur.


The attack
On February 26, 1993, a car bomb was planted by the Islamist terrorists in the underground garage below Tower One. The bomb's fuses burnt at a rate of one inch per two and one half seconds. The men spent 300 United States dollars for the materials to build the bomb.
The bomb exploded in the underground garage at 12:17 P.M., opening a 30 meter wide hole through 4 sublevels of concrete. The bomb generated a pressure of more than 70,000 kilograms per square inch. The detonation velocity of this bomb was about 15,000 feet per second. The cyanide gas that Yousef put in the bomb burnt up in the explosion.

However, only six people were killed and at least 1,040 were injured. The towers were not destroyed like how Yousef invisioned it to be. Yousef had escaped to Pakistan several hours later.

The bomb cut off the center's main electrical power line, and all telephone service for New York City. The bomb caused smoke to rise up to the 93rd floor of both towers, and cutoff the towers' four stairwells and emergency lighting system.

Despite its low death toll, the bombing shocked the American public. Only once before the 1993 attack that the FBI recorded had a bomb of that force had been used. The FBI has recorded a total of about 73,000 explosions.

Yousef's friends reported the van stolen in an attempt to slow investigators down.

After the attacks
A granite memorial to the six victims of the bombing was erected between the Twin Towers, directly above the site of the explosion.
On March 4, 1993 authorities announced the capture of one of the suspected bombing conspirators Mohammad Salameh and exactly one year later four terrorists were convicted for their roles in the bombing.

The capture of Salameh led authorities to Yousef's apartment, where they found bomb-making materials and a business card from Mohammed Jamal Khalifa.

Khalifa was arrested in relation to the crime in December 14, 1994, and was deported to Jordan by the INS in May 5, 1995. Jamal was acquitted by a Jordanian court and now lives as a free man in Saudi Arabia.

In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman and nine others were convicted of conspiracy charges to bomb several New York City landmarks, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of "seditious conspiracy" to bomb the towers - no one was ever convicted for the actual bombing. Another man named Eyad Ismail was tried alongside Yousef for the bombing.

Six militant Islamist conspirators were convicted of the crime in 1997 and 1998 and given prison sentences of a maximum of 240 years each. The main reason that the World Trade Center did not collapse was due to the towers' strength and the fact that Yousef did not have enough money to build a more powerful bomb. In the course of the trial it was revealed that the FBI had an informant, an Egyptian man named Emad Salem, who was involved with the bombing conspiracy. Salem claims to have informed the FBI of the plot to bomb the towers as early as February 6, 1992, information he was privy to possibly because he himself initiated the plot. Salem's role as informant allowed the FBI to quickly pinpoint the conspirators out of the hundreds of possible suspects.

Salem asserts that the original plan was to have the plotters build the bomb using a harmless powder instead of actual explosive, but that an FBI supervisor decided that a real bomb should be constructed instead. He substantiates his claims with hundreds of hours of secretly-recorded conversations with his FBI handlers, made during discussions held after the bombings.

Salem says he wished to complain to FBI headquarters in Washington about the failure to prevent the bombing despite foreknowledge, but was dissuaded from doing so by the New York FBI office.

The FBI has not explicitly denied Salem's account.

Another conspirator in the plot was Nidal Ayyad.

This granite memorial erected in memory of the first attack was obliterated during the destruction of the towers in 2001.



Reference
Ralph Blumenthal, Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast, New York Times, Thursday October 28 (1993) p. A1; online edition by www.whatreallyhappened.com
 
I should have prepared my reply rather than shoot from the hip, Codger, and you are right, there WAS that earlier terrorist attack on the WTC.
Nevertheless, polls show that a majority (more than 50%) of Americans believe that the USA govt had its hand in carrying out the events on 911. A VAST majority of Canadians believe that, bless their hearts.
The truth will come out eventually, but I have a sinking feeling that that scenario is also taken into account, that by the time we finally have the proof that it was all carried out by our own people, it will be too late to do anything about it.

I am glad you are here, Codger. Hope you enjoy your stay here, even with a resident madman such as myself!
 
People with any intellect at all usually hold deep seated opinions. I enjoy the discussions here and the variety of opinions. As long as we can agree to disagree without becoming disagreeable. :wave:

As you get to know me a bit better you will see that I have some hot buttons like everyone else. Like junk science, revisionist history, and poorly contrived logic.

And a sense of humor that gets me in trouble from time to time.
LOL!!!!! :laugh2:
 
Real Money

I'm not some career politician or big celebrity, but $419 billion sounds like real money to me. It's not just nickels and dimes. I'm starting to wonder what would happen if Washington spent that much on education, jobs, and SocSec. Could it make a difference??

Iraq is turning into this generation's Nam. The US lost 50,000 troops in Nam. How much of a difference could those GIs have made to their families and their nation if they had lived full lives? How many GIs are going to be killed or injured for the rest of their lives because of Iraq and Afganistan? How will it affect their families and this country? It's something that everyone in DC needs to think about.

That's my two cents.
 
ITPjohn said:
I'm not some career politician or big celebrity, but $419 billion sounds like real money to me. It's not just nickels and dimes. I'm starting to wonder what would happen if Washington spent that much on education, jobs, and SocSec. Could it make a difference??

Iraq is turning into this generation's Nam. The US lost 50,000 troops in Nam. How much of a difference could those GIs have made to their families and their nation if they had lived full lives? How many GIs are going to be killed or injured for the rest of their lives because of Iraq and Afganistan? How will it affect their families and this country? It's something that everyone in DC needs to think about.

That's my two cents.

President Eisenhower sent 2 of my Uncles to Vietnam, after that they came back from Vietnam, and they were messed up pretty bad in the head,, they were drinking heavily and they killed themselves.
 
Eisenhower....Nam?? News to me.....
 
Please review your history book. Vietnam was a French involvement during the Ike administration.


"He formulated the Eisenhower Doctrine, which helped justify US involvement in Lebanon during his second term. He was also concerned about too much war: in a speech at the end of his second term, he warned against the "military-industrial complex".

There were high tensions in the Middle East, particularly between Israel and Egypt. The British and French sided with Israel, and they attacked Egypt. Then Egypt tried to get the Soviet Union to help, and the Soviet Union threatened that they would.

Eisenhower did not want the conflict to turn into the third World War, and he demanded that the United Nations replace the force of England and France. Britain agreed to withdraw, and the crisis was ended. The US did not become involved in any major military conflicts during his administration."
 
And all the while the military-industrial complex was giggling.
:)
 
Taylor said:
No matter who was in office, a republican or a democrat, the Pentagon would have been asking for more money. It happens every year and the increase they are asking for isn't out of the norm, no matter who is in office.


I disagree with you because with the country at war, There are money being asked alot of money and 419 billion is a whole lot, I don't believe that it increase every year by different Presidents, like you said no matter who's in office. I think it's increase because of the war. Unless you want to proof me differently otherwise. :)
 
Cheri said:
I disagree with you because with the country at war, There are money being asked alot of money and 419 billion is a whole lot, I don't believe that it increase every year by different Presidents, like you said no matter who's in office. I think it's increase because of the war. Unless you want to proof me differently otherwise. :)

What sort of proof would you like to see?


"During the Cold War, U.S. military suppliers accounted for about 13 percent of global arms sales. Since the collapse of the Berlin Wall in late 1989, U.S. arms sales have rocketed. In the past seven years, the United States has sold roughly $100 billion worth of weapons abroad. As other nations have reduced their arms sales, American military manufacturers have increased their share of the market to 70 percent. Clinton has pushed these sales as vigorously as his predecessors. His administration has funneled subsidies to the arms industry to facilitate exports, arguing that foreign arms sales keep U.S. procurement costs down and jobs at home. But, as a special Boston Globe report on the global arms trade concluded, "while leading defense manufacturers report big profits, surging stock prices and huge increases for top executives ... there has been no visible sign of reduced costs to the military, and the hemorrhaging of American jobs continues." Indeed, the Globe notes, to secure these sales, thousands of production jobs are often shipped overseas along with the technology needed for recipient nations to create their own arms industries.
In other words, the Pentagon and the Clinton administration are actively engaged in creating the threat that they say we must be prepared to meet. For without foreign arms sales, and especially the sale of manufacturing equipment and know-how, there would be nothing to defend against.
The only significant opposition to the military spending authorized in the budget deal has been voiced by the 109 members of the House Progressive Caucus. In a letter to Clinton in late April, caucus chairman Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) urged the president to reject any deal that cut domestic programs while leaving military spending at Cold War levels. Frank also promised to use the appropriations process to fight the deal.
However, the budget went through with an increase of $53 billion in military spending over the next five years, along with $115 billion in cuts in Medicare, more than a $30 billion reduction in food stamps and the elimination of funds to rebuild crumbling schools."
 
Codger said:
What sort of proof would you like to see?


"During the Cold War, U.S. military suppliers accounted for about 13 percent of global arms sales. Since the collapse of the Berlin Wall in late 1989, U.S. arms sales have rocketed. In the past seven years, the United States has sold roughly $100 billion worth of weapons abroad. As other nations have reduced their arms sales, American military manufacturers have increased their share of the market to 70 percent. Clinton has pushed these sales as vigorously as his predecessors. His administration has funneled subsidies to the arms industry to facilitate exports, arguing that foreign arms sales keep U.S. procurement costs down and jobs at home. But, as a special Boston Globe report on the global arms trade concluded, "while leading defense manufacturers report big profits, surging stock prices and huge increases for top executives ... there has been no visible sign of reduced costs to the military, and the hemorrhaging of American jobs continues." Indeed, the Globe notes, to secure these sales, thousands of production jobs are often shipped overseas along with the technology needed for recipient nations to create their own arms industries.
In other words, the Pentagon and the Clinton administration are actively engaged in creating the threat that they say we must be prepared to meet. For without foreign arms sales, and especially the sale of manufacturing equipment and know-how, there would be nothing to defend against.
The only significant opposition to the military spending authorized in the budget deal has been voiced by the 109 members of the House Progressive Caucus. In a letter to Clinton in late April, caucus chairman Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) urged the president to reject any deal that cut domestic programs while leaving military spending at Cold War levels. Frank also promised to use the appropriations process to fight the deal.
However, the budget went through with an increase of $53 billion in military spending over the next five years, along with $115 billion in cuts in Medicare, more than a $30 billion reduction in food stamps and the elimination of funds to rebuild crumbling schools."


That is not proof, Like I said it increase because of the war
See your quote
the budget went through with an increase of $53 billion in military spending over the next five years
 
Cheri said:
That is not proof, Like I said it increase because of the war
See your quote



Table 7.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Discretionary Outlays, 1962 to 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Billions of dollars)
Defense International Domestic Total

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DEF. INT. DOM. TTL.
1962 52.6 5.5 14.0 72.1
1963 53.7 5.2 16.3 75.3
1964 55.0 4.6 19.5 79.1
1965 51.0 4.7 22.1 77.8
1966 59.0 5.1 26.1 90.1
1967 72.0 5.3 29.1 106.5
1968 82.2 4.9 31.0 118.0
1969 82.7 4.1 30.5 117.3

1970 81.9 4.0 34.4 120.3
1971 79.0 3.8 39.8 122.5
1972 79.3 4.6 44.6 128.5
1973 77.1 4.8 48.5 130.4
1974 80.7 6.2 51.3 138.2
1975 87.6 8.2 62.2 158.0
1976 89.9 7.5 78.2 175.6
1977 97.5 8.0 91.5 197.1
1978 104.7 8.5 105.5 218.7
1979 116.8 9.1 114.1 240.0

1980 134.6 12.8 128.9 276.3
1981 158.0 13.6 136.3 307.9
1982 185.9 12.9 127.1 326.0
1983 209.9 13.6 129.8 353.3
1984 228.0 16.3 135.1 379.4
1985 253.1 17.4 145.3 415.8
1986 273.8 17.7 147.0 438.5
1987 282.5 15.2 146.5 444.2
1988 290.9 15.7 157.8 464.4
1989 304.0 16.6 168.2 488.8

1990 300.1 19.1 181.4 500.6
1991 319.7 19.7 193.9 533.3
1992 302.6 19.2 212.1 533.8
1993 292.4 21.6 225.4 539.4
1994 282.3 20.8 238.3 541.4
1995 273.6 20.1 251.2 544.9
1996 266.0 18.3 248.4 532.7
1997 271.7 19.0 256.6 547.2
1998 270.2 18.1 263.8 552.1
1999 275.5 19.5 277.0 572.0

2000 295.0 21.3 298.6 614.8
2001 306.1 22.5 320.8 649.3
2002 348.9 26.2 359.2 734.3
2003 404.9 27.9 392.6 825.4
2004 454.1 33.8 407.1 895.0

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Congressional Budget Office.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Hello?

Do you see a single year there where the budget went down? Hmmmm.
 
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