Obama's Social Security number goes to court

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darkdog said:
What does that have to do with anything? What he's saying is fundamentally true about foreign policy- there are some questions that it doesn't even occur to us to ask.


Tsk. If you cannot tell that he was lying when he said that, then so be it. And there WERE questions they asked, such as "How do we pull this over the voters?" Ho hum.

Yes, the House impeached him.


What reports stated they don't exist? Surely not the 2002 NIE assessment. All fifteen countries on the UN security council believed they existed. The Clinton administration believed they existed and had an official policy of regime change in Iraq. Prominent Democrats are on record talking about the WMDs, even before Bush's presidency.

And Plame and Powell had the real truth? Wilson contradicted his original story when he testified under oath to Congress. He lied. The SSCI report said that Wilson's intelligence report indicated that Iraq approached Niger to buy yellowcake uranium. In other words, it supported what we had already suspected and the infamous 16 words in the State of the Union address were correct. As for Colin Powell, he felt burned because he had actually presented evidence of WMD to the UN.
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Which turned out to be weather stations in Afghanistan. :roll:
 
I'm surprised that liberals put any credibility in what a Republican pundit says.
 
I think I'm a RINO
 
Reba said:
I'm surprised that liberals put any credibility in what a Republican pundit says.
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I certainly don't put much credibility on pundits of either ilk. The thought that Obama has given any Republican pundit cause to write "the sky is falling" makes me nervous. I cannot vote for him again, unless something good happens fast.
 
Beowulf said:
Tsk. If you cannot tell that he was lying when he said that, then so be it. And there WERE questions they asked, such as "How do we pull this over the voters?" Ho hum.
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He wasn't lying- there are unknown unknowns when it comes to dealings with other nations. And nobody ever said "How do we pull this over the voters?" Why would you make stuff up while accusing others of making stuff up?

Beowulf said:
Which turned out to be weather stations in Afghanistan. :roll:
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No, they were in Iraq. Liar! Just kidding. I know it's a mistake. But are you accusing Powell of lying? Or just being wrong?
 
darkdog said:
He wasn't lying- there are unknown unknowns when it comes to dealings with other nations. And nobody ever said "How do we pull this over the voters?" Why would you make stuff up while accusing others of making stuff up?

I am not making stuff up.


No, they were in Iraq. Liar! Just kidding. I know it's a mistake. But are you accusing Powell of lying? Or just being wrong?
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Oh riiiight, a "mistake." Uh huh.

I don't feel like arguing this any more.
Peace.
 
Beowulf said:
I am not making stuff up.
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If you can find me a quote from a significant player in the Bush administration to that effect, I will apologize.

Now, I understand you might not have meant that literally someone said that, but the only evidence you've provided that Bush manipulated intel was a document with contradictory evidence that was really nothing more than hearsay and a philosophical quote from Rumsfeld that is objectively true.

Beowulf said:
Oh riiiight, a "mistake." Uh huh.
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I meant a mistake on your part- saying the weather stations were in Afghanistan when they were really in Iraq. The point is that you weren't lying just because you were wrong on that. The same goes for Colin Powell.

Beowulf said:
I don't feel like arguing this any more.
Peace.
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Suit yourself. Peace.
 
darkdog said:
If you can find me a quote from a significant player in the Bush administration to that effect, I will apologize.

Now, I understand you might not have meant that literally someone said that, but the only evidence you've provided that Bush manipulated intel was a document with contradictory evidence that was really nothing more than hearsay and a philosophical quote from Rumsfeld that is objectively true.


I meant a mistake on your part- saying the weather stations were in Afghanistan when they were really in Iraq. The point is that you weren't lying just because you were wrong on that. The same goes for Colin Powell.


Suit yourself. Peace.
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Dang. I could have sworn I read something about Powell using satellite photos taken in Afghanistan as part of his presentation. However, I tried to google for it and came up empty, so I guess I am wrong about that. Sorry. However, I did discover that he made several other claims proven unfounded as well, so it all points to deliberate deception, and I am hard-pressed to think he was utterly caught unaware.
 
Beowulf said:
Dang. I could have sworn I read something about Powell using satellite photos taken in Afghanistan as part of his presentation. However, I tried to google for it and came up empty, so I guess I am wrong about that. Sorry. However, I did discover that he made several other claims proven unfounded as well, so it all points to deliberate deception, and I am hard-pressed to think he was utterly caught unaware.
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Which brings us back to my original point- "Wrong intelligence does not imply dishonesty." You were wrong, but you were not deceiving deliberately. He was wrong, but that doesn't mean he was deceiving deliberately.

Again, if Colin Powell was lying, that means Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, John Edwards, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, Jacques Chirac, and on and on were also lying about WMDs. That would be quite an impressive conspiracy to deceive the world about WMDs.
 
darkdog said:
Which brings us back to my original point- "Wrong intelligence does not imply dishonesty." You were wrong, but you were not deceiving deliberately. He was wrong, but that doesn't mean he was deceiving deliberately.

Again, if Colin Powell was lying, that means Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, John Edwards, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, Jacques Chirac, and on and on were also lying about WMDs. That would be quite an impressive conspiracy to deceive the world about WMDs.
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Nawww. I look at it differently. When the government manufactures evidence such as documents "proving" Iraq was purchasing yellow cake uranium from South Africa, it smacks of deliberate deception. Perhaps the people you mentioned were shown those documents. Whose fault then would the mistakes be? I find it interesting that Rumsfeld was featured in a Diane Sawyer the other day on national television. It turned my stomach to see him lying all over the place, whining that nothing was his fault, he had bad intel, bad intel. Again, yeah, suuuuure. You can believe in your version of the wartime mentality, and I will believe in mine, and we let it go at that.
 
Reba said:
I'm surprised that liberals put any credibility in what a Republican pundit says.
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Who said liberals were giving credit to anything that a Repub pundit says? You mistake making fun of their debate style with giving credit.
 
Beowulf said:
Nawww. I look at it differently. When the government manufactures evidence such as documents "proving" Iraq was purchasing yellow cake uranium from South Africa, it smacks of deliberate deception. Perhaps the people you mentioned were shown those documents. Whose fault then would the mistakes be? I find it interesting that Rumsfeld was featured in a Diane Sawyer the other day on national television. It turned my stomach to see him lying all over the place, whining that nothing was his fault, he had bad intel, bad intel. Again, yeah, suuuuure. You can believe in your version of the wartime mentality, and I will believe in mine, and we let it go at that.
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Agreed. The manufactured nature of the documents screams "intentional deception". Why would anyone need to manufacture documents unless they had an intention of attempting to support their dishonesty with something concrete?
 
jillio said:
Who said liberals were giving credit to anything that a Repub pundit says? You mistake making fun of their debate style with giving credit.
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So you don't believe what he said about the 2012 election?
 
Beowulf said:
Nawww. I look at it differently. When the government manufactures evidence such as documents "proving" Iraq was purchasing yellow cake uranium from South Africa, it smacks of deliberate deception. Perhaps the people you mentioned were shown those documents. Whose fault then would the mistakes be? I find it interesting that Rumsfeld was featured in a Diane Sawyer the other day on national television. It turned my stomach to see him lying all over the place, whining that nothing was his fault, he had bad intel, bad intel. Again, yeah, suuuuure. You can believe in your version of the wartime mentality, and I will believe in mine, and we let it go at that.
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Several things here.

1. It was Niger, not South Africa.

2. The government didn't claim that Iraq bought uranium. It only claimed that Iraq sought to buy uranium. That's a subtle but important distinction.

3. Much of our intelligence came from the Clinton years. As for the quotes, there are plenty of quotes Democrats and Clinton administration officials fretting about Saddam's WMD programs dating back to 1998, when Saddam kicked inspectors out of the country. By the time Bush became president, it was pretty much common wisdom in Washington that Saddam was running WMD programs.

4. It was an Italian, Rocco Martino, who passed the documents on to British intelligence. He later told Italian investigators that France paid him to do it and they were using the documents the discredit the US. I'm a bit skeptical of the finger pointing, but the whole forgery thing seems to be between Italy and France. Besides that, the British government investigated and reported that they had relied on other sources of information to back the claim.

5. Joe Wilson was the one who lied. He had to change his story when he went under oath so he wouldn't perjure himself (which, as we discussed, is a felony). The intelligence committee reported that Wilson's report on his trip actually corroborated the belief that Iraq approached Niger about yellow cake uranium, although his reported was not considered very significant at the time.
 
jillio said:
I would certainly hope it was true, but no, I don't place any credibility in it at all.
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Ah, so the Republicans do have a chance to win the 2012 Presidential election! :applause:
 
Reba said:
Ah, so the Republicans do have a chance to win the 2012 Presidential election! :applause:
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I bet so, especially if Obama doesn't improve his approval rating until 2012 and remember about Bill Clinton won the 1996 election after Republican victory to control the congress in 1994.

Anything is possible.
 
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