NRA offensive exposes deep U.S. divisions on guns

CrazyPaul said:
Yes, I understand. That's why gun control is discussed rather than gun ban. However I don't understand why those people still complain about the idea of banning assault weapons (meaning not all guns). It may not stop gun violence but it's better (and maybe safer) than doing nothing at all. Know what I mean? Mass murderers prefer that kind of weapon. Can you see the pattern, AR-15 used in many shootings now such as Columbine, Aurora, Sandy Hook and most recent NY firefighters?
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Do you seriously believe that if AR-15's became banned that would be the end of mass murders? Really?
 
Did you know that ban on AR-15 and other assault weapon was in effect between 1994 and 2004? These years, mass murders still happened anyway so it proves that the 1994-2004 ban had actually increased the murder rate rather than intended decreased. This is part reason why it (ban) expired. If it did indeed works, congress would have renewed the ban, but they didn't because it proved too costly and failed. You have to think, with ban black market will grow fast and do you know what means black market? Black market means illegal business selling illegal stuff like drugs, machine guns, hot guns, and so forth. Even moonshine too.

CrazyPaul said:
Yes, I understand. That's why gun control is discussed rather than gun ban. However I don't understand why those people still complain about the idea of banning assault weapons (meaning not all guns). It may not stop gun violence but it's better (and maybe safer) than doing nothing at all. Know what I mean? Mass murderers prefer that kind of weapon. Can you see the pattern, AR-15 used in many shootings now such as Columbine, Aurora, Sandy Hook and most recent NY firefighters?
Click to expand...
 
diehardbiker said:
Did you know that ban on AR-15 and other assault weapon was in effect between 1994 and 2004? These years, mass murders still happened anyway so it proves that the 1994-2004 ban had actually increased the murder rate rather than intended decreased. This is part reason why it (ban) expired. If it did indeed works, congress would have renewed the ban, but they didn't because it proved too costly and failed. You have to think, with ban black market will grow fast and do you know what means black market? Black market means illegal business selling illegal stuff like drugs, machine guns, hot guns, and so forth. Even moonshine too.
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Do you have source to support your claim about murder rate goes up from 1994 to 2004?

The FBI data doesn't back your claim.
FBI — Table 1
 
Jiro said:
he's correct. the murder rate went down after the assault weapon ban.
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First, Did you look on FBI data, that where I posted?

The FBI data doesn't support diehardbiker's claim because the murder rate has went up, down, up, down, regardless on status.

From 1994 to 1999 - the murder rate is dropped and it went increased from 2000-2003. It went dropped at once in 2004 so went increased in 2005 and 2006. It started drop after 2007.

Now, I don't see federal assault weapon ban is contributed to increase of murder rate because the crime statistic said otherwise.
 
Foxrac said:
First, Did you look on FBI data, that where I posted?

The FBI data doesn't support diehardbiker's claim because the murder rate has went up, down, up, down, regardless on status.

From 1994 to 1999 - the murder rate is dropped and it went increased from 2000-2003. It went dropped at once in 2004 so went increased in 2005 and 2006. It started drop after 2007.

Now, I don't see federal assault weapon ban is contributed to increase of murder rate because the crime statistic said otherwise.
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I've posted data and supporting arguments by experts many times in several threads. it stated that federal assault weapon ban was very costly and an ultimate fail. it did not lower the rate as expected. what do you think why it was never renewed again?

sure it shows that there was a mixed result produced by federal assault weapon ban but the fact that it yielded a "mixed result" is a proof that it was a failed policy. Look at all cities with either handgun ban or restrictive handgun law like DC and Chicago. it did not produce a desirable result.
 
Green - DECREASE, Red - INCREASE

1991: 24,703
1992: 23,760
1993: 24,526
1994: 23,326 - Federal Assault Weapon Ban kicked in
1995: 21,606
1996: 19,645
1997: 18,208
1998: 16,974
1999: 15,522
2000: 15,586
2001: 16,037
2002: 16,229
2003: 16,528
2004: 16,148 - Federal Assault Weapon Ban expired
2005: 16,740
2006: 17,309
2007: 17,128
2008: 16,465
2009: 15,399
2010: 14,748

Source: FBI — Table 1
 
Jiro said:
I've posted data and supporting arguments by experts many times in several threads. it stated that federal assault weapon ban was very costly and an ultimate fail. it did not lower the rate as expected. what do you think why it was never renewed again?

sure it shows that there was a mixed result produced by federal assault weapon ban but the fact that it yielded a "mixed result" is a proof that it was a failed policy. Look at all cities with either handgun ban or restrictive handgun law like DC and Chicago. it did not produce a desirable result.
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I don't support federal assault weapon ban, but I just disputed the statement about whichever law will lead to increase the murder rate.

I just see federal assault weapon ban as nothing and pointless law.
 
Foxrac said:
I don't support federal assault weapon ban, but I just disputed the statement about whichever law will lead to increase the murder rate.

I just see federal assault weapon ban as nothing and pointless law.
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the statement is that the federal assault weapon ban did not produce a desirable effect as claimed and hoped by anti-gunners.

and now... NY has hit a record 40-year low for murder rate in 2012..... without federal assault weapons ban.
 
Jiro said:
the statement is that the federal assault weapon ban did not produce a desirable effect as claimed and hoped by anti-gunners.

and now... NY has hit a record 40-year low for murder rate in 2012..... without federal assault weapons ban.
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I don't say that federal assault weapon ban that help to lower the murder, however I agree with your claim about "not produce a desirable effect".

The federal assault weapon ban is just failed as drug wars that started in 1970's.

You can see California's crime statistic and the ban on assault weapon started in 1989.
California Crime Rates 1960 - 2011

I believe that murders are usually caused by problem with society.
 
Reba said:
Do you seriously believe that if AR-15's became banned that would be the end of mass murders? Really?
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Of course not, it will not end mass murders but FEWER people in mass murders will be killed due to no assault weapons which can fire 100 bullets in a minute. So my point is that 50 people in one location would have hard times to escape when a murderer uses an assault weapon on them. All of them would be dead in ONE minute. In other words, some people can escape if the murderer uses a non-assault weapon which can't fire 100 bullets in a minute. Remember Columbina shooting, one of the guys used AR-15 with a drum magazine. If it was not jammed, many more students would be dead. Luckily, it was jammed so alot of students could escape. Think about that.
 
CrazyPaul said:
Of course not, it will not end mass murders but FEWER people in mass murders will be killed due to no assault weapons which can fire 100 bullets in a minute. So my point is that 50 people in one location would have hard times to escape when a murderer uses an assault weapon on them. All of them would be dead in ONE minute. In other words, some people can escape if the murderer uses a non-assault weapon which can't fire 100 bullets in a minute. Remember Columbina shooting, one of the guys used AR-15 with a drum magazine. If it was not jammed, many more students would be dead. Luckily, it was jammed so alot of students could escape. Think about that.
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but...... handguns were used in most mass shootings.

drum magazine is notoriously unreliable but that doesn't bother government from banning it since it jams a lot and it's sold as novelty item.
 
Jiro said:
but...... handguns were used in most mass shootings.

drum magazine is notoriously unreliable but that doesn't bother government from banning it since it jams a lot and it's sold as novelty item.
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Very good! Now compare them with mass shootings that involved AR-15 (Columbine, Aurora, Sandy Hook). How many people were dead in those shootings? How many people were dead in mass shootings that involved handguns (no assault weapons)?

Remember "Going Postal"? The murderer used a handgun and there were only about 4-5 dead people so if he used an assault weapon instead, there would be 5X more dead people. Right? Be honest.

At NY Blaze, there would be more dead firefighters if cops didn't show up to fire back.

Assault weapon - ...........................................................................

Handgun - ........ ........ ........ ........ or . . . . . . . . . . . . .

(. = one bullet) (This is just an estimate) (I didn't put one space in Assault weapon example, I dunno why it happened)
 
CrazyPaul said:
Very good! Now compare them with mass shootings that involved AR-15 (Columbine, Aurora, Sandy Hook). How many people were dead in those shootings? How many people were dead in mass shootings that involved handguns (no assault weapons)?

Remember "Going Postal"? The murderer used a handgun and there were only about 4-5 dead people so if he used an assault weapon instead, there would be 5X more dead people. Right? Be honest.

At NY Blaze, there would be more dead firefighters if cops didn't show up to fire back.

Assault weapon - ...........................................................................

Handgun - ........ ........ ........ ........ or . . . . . . . . . . . . .

(. = one bullet) (This is just an estimate)
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remember? I prefer to stick with facts... not emotions or assumptions.

w620-afe014391829c8524fb15fd0f0647360.jpg


Here’s the Chart That Supporters of a Federal Assault Weapons Ban Won’t Want to See | TheBlaze.com
While anti-gun advocates argue that banning semi-automatic rifles, like the popular AR-15, will help decrease shooting deaths in the U.S., FBI data suggests that the average American is more likely to be killed by “hands, fists” or “feet” than a rifle. The anti-gun crowd has intensified its calls for a federal assault weapons ban following the tragedy in Newtown, Conn. last week.

“Yes, massacres tend to be done with weapons like this. But not most gun murders in the U.S.: a vast majority of gun murders in the U.S. are committed with a handgun,” The Washington Examiner’s Timothy Carney writes.

As you can see in the chart pictured above, the vast majority of murders in the U.S. are indeed committed with handguns, not rifles. More people were killed with shotguns (373), knifes/blades (1,704) and “other weapon” (1,772) more often than they were with rifles in 2010, which were reportedly used in 358 murders that year.

Whether it’s a knife, gun or a fist, will a “ban” of any kind sway a deranged individual’s decision to take human lives?
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the data from chart was obtained from FBI database - http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl20.xls

where the heck did you get all these figures from your post like 5x and ........ ...... ...... ??? why don't you use facts instead?
 
Jiro said:
remember? I prefer to stick with facts... not emotions or assumptions.

w620-afe014391829c8524fb15fd0f0647360.jpg


Here’s the Chart That Supporters of a Federal Assault Weapons Ban Won’t Want to See | TheBlaze.com


the data from chart was obtained from FBI database - FBI — Table 20

where the heck did you get all these figures from your post like 5x and ........ ...... ...... ??? why don't you use facts instead?
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The chart is not according to mass murders only. It's generally any murder like gang shootings, robbery, family murder, cop killing, etc which mostly involved handguns. Sorry, wrong chart so please show me a chart according to mass murders in 2010-2012 ONLY .

Can't you answer my question "Right?"?
 
CrazyPaul said:
The chart is not according to mass murders only. It's generally any murder like gang shootings, robbery, family murder, cop killing, etc which mostly involved handguns. Sorry, wrong chart so please show me a chart according to mass murders in 2010-2012 ONLY .
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um.... mass shooting IS murder. the chart includes ALL DEATHS caused by a certain weapon.

why don't you provide any data/chart/fact that support your argument? btw - 2012 data is not available since 2012 is not even over yet.

CrazyPaul said:
Can't you answer my question "Right?"?
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again - I prefer to stick with facts... not emotion. since he didn't use assault rifle, then it's irrelevant.
 
Jiro said:
um.... mass shooting IS murder. the chart includes ALL DEATHS caused by a certain weapon.

why don't you provide any data/chart/fact that support your argument?
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What? Were hands, fists and feet involved in mass murders? :lol:

but...... handguns were used in most mass shootings
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So lets not talk about other murders.
 
Jiro said:
um.... mass shooting IS murder. the chart includes ALL DEATHS caused by a certain weapon.

why don't you provide any data/chart/fact that support your argument? btw - 2012 data is not available since 2012 is not even over yet.
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That's right so wait for it to come out in 2013 hopefully if FBI makes a chart for mass murders only.


Jiro said:
again - I prefer to stick with facts... not emotion. since he didn't use assault rifle, then it's irrelevant.
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Bullshit! You have the answer but won't say it. It's just a hypothetical question since the statement includes "if". Say it! Do you agree or disagree?

OK, I need a break from this. I am gonna watch a movie on TV and drink beer now. :wave:
 
You can find 2011 data at FBI — Table 20

and I just made a chart with 2010 and 2011 data.

v4mkhu.png


looks like it's saying handgun crime went up and rifle crime went down.
 
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