Let's Talk MORAL VALUES

[PrincessTabu]

Let's talk MORAL VALUES

-You Shall Not Kill (need an explanation?)
-You Shall Not Steal (Haliburton)
-You Shall Not Covet Your Neighbor's House, ... or anything that is your neighbor's
----------taken from the 10 Commandments


some more Christian beliefs:

-Do unto others as you would have them do unto you
-Judge not lest you be judged


Then there's some other highly moral people out there who would be openly opposed to the religious right views:

Martin Luther King:
-"Non-violence in the truest sense is not a strategy that one uses simply because it is expedient at the moment; non-violence is ultimately a way of life that men live by because of the sheer morality of its claim.."

Gandhi:
-"Non-violence is the law of our species as violence is the law of the brute. The spirit lies dormant in the brute and it knows no law but that of physical might. The dignity of man requires obedience to a higher law, to the strength of the spirit."


I am personally offended that because I support equal rights for ALL people, because I value the inherent worth of ALL living things, and because I believe that legalized discrimination is morally wrong, that I am not a moral person. Yet people who support this Administration, the most amoral Administration imo that we've ever had, say they base their opinion on the President's morality?

Is it okay to use God's name to promote hate?

 

[Toonces]

Yeah....see, Jesus had been urging people not to anger against other people, to turn the other cheek, and pray for the enemies who revile them, yet there are so many people today who think they do God service by killing so-called "fiends" and then waiting expectantly for a pat on their head and hearing "Good boy!" from Him. They truly don't understand that all people all over the earth are children of one and only God, and that God would rather much prefer that people learn to respect each other and to live side by side in harmony rather than fighting viciously against each other.

So no, I do not believe that people should use God's name to promote hate. :/

 

[Reba]

Let's talk MORAL VALUES

Martin Luther King:
-"Non-violence in the truest sense is not a strategy that one uses simply because it is expedient at the moment; non-violence is ultimately a way of life that men live by because of the sheer morality of its claim.."

Gandhi:
-"Non-violence is the law of our species as violence is the law of the brute. The spirit lies dormant in the brute and it knows no law but that of physical might. The dignity of man requires obedience to a higher law, to the strength of the spirit."

Just one important point about non-violent protest.

Non-violent, passive resistance is only effective in countries where the people are basically civilized to begin with. That is why the protests of MLK and Gandhi were successful. MLK protested in the United States, appealing to the consciences of good Americans. Gandhi protested in India, appealing to the consciences of good Britains. Gandhi was successful in getting India's independence from Great Britain. His methods were not successful in obtaining peace between the Hindus and Moslems. See the difference?

Non-violent, passive resistance does not work against terrorists and people who have genocide goals. As Gandhi himself said, "the brutes". Peaceful protest only works against other civilized groups.

Peaceful protest would not stop Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, or Mao. They laughed at such "weakness". It will not work against Moslem terrorists. They laugh at humanitarian workers and peace protestors. They have no respect for peaceful protest.

 

[Reba]

They truly don't understand that all people all over the earth are children of one and only God...

Sorry, not true.

Jesus said to the unbelievers, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not." (John 8:44-45)

There is only one way to become a child of God:
Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)
"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." (John 3:7)

So no, I do not believe that people should use God's name to promote hate.

I agree.

 

[Beowulf]

Jesus said to the unbelievers, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not." (John 8:44-45)


Spooky.
Sure sounds like Bush.

 

[Vance]

Let's talk MORAL VALUES

-You Shall Not Kill (need an explanation?)
-You Shall Not Steal (Haliburton)
-You Shall Not Covet Your Neighbor's House, ... or anything that is your neighbor's
----------taken from the 10 Commandments


some more Christian beliefs:

-Do unto others as you would have them do unto you
-Judge not lest you be judged


Then there's some other highly moral people out there who would be openly opposed to the religious right views:

Martin Luther King:
-"Non-violence in the truest sense is not a strategy that one uses simply because it is expedient at the moment; non-violence is ultimately a way of life that men live by because of the sheer morality of its claim.."

Gandhi:
-"Non-violence is the law of our species as violence is the law of the brute. The spirit lies dormant in the brute and it knows no law but that of physical might. The dignity of man requires obedience to a higher law, to the strength of the spirit."


I am personally offended that because I support equal rights for ALL people, because I value the inherent worth of ALL living things, and because I believe that legalized discrimination is morally wrong, that I am not a moral person. Yet people who support this Administration, the most amoral Administration imo that we've ever had, say they base their opinion on the President's morality?

As you see, they are hypocrites and always will be.

Judge not lest you be judged

That's where largest percent of christians & Bushies who voted for Bush fail to understand what it really mean. They have been giving me nothing but lame excuses or examples whenever I point it out.

Ironically that stats reveals democrats have much more moral values than republicans does. I guess that's why rightwings has become so obsessed on moral values since they are performing rather poor on that part...

I would suggest anyone who have common sense to do what Jesus preach, do not do what these hypocritical christians does nowaday. For damn sake, Bush claimed that God put him in the White House. Which part of "Do not take God's name in vain" he don't understand? No, I am not joking or exaggerating on that part.

Sources:

Sept 2000's George magazine, his exact words: "I've heard the call. I believe God wants me to run for President."

Nov 2003's London Observer, his exact words: "I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen[...] I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it."


As I mentioned in some other post, I finally understand who will become '144,000' martyrs that will be blessed by God. For sure, it is not these hypocritical christians or any religious groups but it is not my place to judge or impose my beliefs unlike these zealous nuts.

The fact that the God I know doesn’t like war as you already point it out about 10 Commandments. IN these pre-election months, I finally understand what Jesus and His Words really mean. As 15 years old boy point it out that whoever follows Jesus, His Words and his liberalism will be crucify in no time.

Is it okay to use God's name to promote hate?

No and yet they did and they think it is okay. Go figure.

 

[Toonces]

Sorry, not true.

Jesus said to the unbelievers, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not." (John 8:44-45)

There is only one way to become a child of God:
Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)
"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." (John 3:7)

Actually, may I point out that since God created men FIRST, so it could be said he is the Father of our spirits.

Num. 16:22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Mal. 2: 10 Have we not all one Father? Hath not one God created us?

Heb. 12: 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

True, if a man sins and would not repent, it can be said that his father is the devil indeed. But I guess it is needless to say that the Devil had no power to create man nor his spirit; he can only woo them to the darker side (and their eventual downfall).

So, what I mean is that every time we deal with those 'enemies' we just have to remember that God lovingly created them and still views them as his children, even though they had gone off the right way. And all we can do is try to turn them back to God.

Please don't be offended if it sounds like I'm preaching too much. I just thought I'd point out something... ^^;;;

 

[Beowulf]

"And all we can do is try to turn them back to God."
Oh mannnnnn........
Do you realize how utterly arrogant that sounds?
WHOSE God?

 

[Reba]

Ironically that stats reveals democrats have much more moral values than republicans does.

What stats? How do you define "morals"? How do you quantify "morals"? How do you measure the degree with which someone follows "morals"? Who did this survey? Who did they contact? Did they just take a person's word when he/she said, "yes I am moral"? Sounds fishy to me.

I guess that's why rightwings has become so obsessed on moral values...

Huh? It seems like the non-"rightwings" are the ones always bringing up the topic. It seems like the liberals are the ones "obsessed".

I would suggest anyone who have common sense to do what Jesus preach...

I agree. Jesus said trust Him, repent and be saved.

... Which part of "Do not take God's name in vain" he don't understand? No, I am not joking or exaggerating on that part.[

Oh, that's right, I forgot; you don't judge people.

Sept 2000's George magazine, his exact words: "I've heard the call. I believe God wants me to run for President."

What's wrong with that?
That is NOT the same as saying God put him in the White House. God could call Bush to run for President and lose the election. He didn't say God told him he would win, only that he should run.

Nov 2003's London Observer, his exact words: "I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen[...] I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it."

Same as above.

As I mentioned in some other post, I finally understand who will become '144,000' martyrs that will be blessed by God. For sure, it is not these hypocritical christians or any religious groups but it is not my place to judge or impose my beliefs unlike these zealous nuts.

You are not judging? Really? What do you call the above statement? Any time you call someone a hypocrite, that is judging. When you call someone zealous nuts, that is judging.

 

[Reba]

Actually, may I point out that since God created men FIRST, so it could be said he is the Father of our spirits.

You might say that, but God doesn't say that. God created all life but not all life are His children.

Num. 16:22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

The verse says, "God of the spirits of all flesh"; that is NOT the same as "Father".
And the answer to the people's question is, yes, when one man sins, everyone suffers.

Mal. 2: 10 Have we not all one Father? Hath not one God created us?

The Israelites were correct that God created Adam, and thru Adam they were all born in the flesh. As a group, the Israelites were not "children" of God but children of man because the Father-son relationship was destroyed when Adam sinned against God in the Garden of Eden. As individuals, each person becomes a child of God thru the second birth of the spirit, not the flesh.

Heb. 12: 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

This verse was written to the Hebrew believers of Christ. They were born again, therefore, they were children of God.

True, if a man sins and would not repent, it can be said that his father is the devil indeed. But I guess it is needless to say that the Devil had no power to create man nor his spirit; he can only woo them to the darker side (and their eventual downfall).

Except for Adam and Eve, Satan doesn't need to "woo" people to become sinners; we are all born sinners.

So, what I mean is that every time we deal with those 'enemies' we just have to remember that God lovingly created them...

God loves all people, and that is why He provided a way for them to be saved:
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His own begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

...and still views them as his children, even though they had gone off the right way.

God doesn't view them as His children until after they accept Jesus as Savior.

 

[Toonces]

Alright, Reba. I guess we have different ways of looking at what the scriptures say.

"And all we can do is try to turn them back to God."
Oh mannnnnn........
Do you realize how utterly arrogant that sounds?
WHOSE God?

I didn't intend it to sound arrogant. ^^;; Maybe I should say it differently - turning the people back to the Creator whom they revered, seeing as how people have different names for God in different languages. Ah, well.

 

[Beowulf]

You might say that, but God doesn't say that. God created all life but not all life are His children.


The verse says, "God of the spirits of all flesh"; that is NOT be saved:
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His own begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)


God doesn't view them as His children until after they accept Jesus as Savior.

Excuse me, hon, but quite a few of the world's population do NOT accept Bush as the Messiah.

Jesus was a Spiritual Master, true, but there were others, and they all deserve equal respect and reverence.

 

[Reba]

Jesus was a Spiritual Master, true, but there were others, and they all deserve equal respect and reverence.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
Jesus said He is the only way to God in Heaven.
You can respect anyone you want. They just can't get you into Heaven.

I respect many people. I just don't worship them, or depend on them for my eternal salvation.

 

[PrincessTabu]

Reba,
I could debate many points with you, but I won't; only to say that people who view the world with a dualistic consciousness will always justify their actions. They are always right and the perceived enemy is always wrong. It is only when a person truly wants to see things differently that the answers come to them. There's a saying, "when the student is ready, the teacher appears." Peace can only come from peace. You offend me by saying that only you and the other fundamentalists are God's specially chosen. That is not God, only your thoughts about what God is. I choose to think differently, and I continue to believe in peace. People who truly wish for peace understand that it will never be obtained by bullying, control or aggression; only through love and compassion and respect for the oneness of all life.

 

[Beowulf]

I'm not quite sure, but I think Reba is still thinking Bush. Hee hee.

 

[Vance]

God doesn't view them as His children until after they accept Jesus as Savior.

That's true but let's not forget that they must practice what Jesus preach. how many do you think they have? Very, very and very few. As I have been giving you some examples of hypocritical christians such as Bush and others time to time. But naturally, people choose to neglect or trying to alter the facts that I represented *shrug* Again, I based on the evidences that stared at me and begged me to expose, nothing more or less than that.

I would make a list about what Jesus said about imposing the beliefs, oppression, wars, go on and on.. but I realize it is pointless since people kept neglecting or altering the facts that I represented. It finally hit me today (yes, seem that I am slow on these kind of people). Good example, Dr. Semmelweis has been tried for many, many years to convince other doctors that they must wash their hands before performing autopsies or deliver the babies (which doctors didn't). Many, many patients and babies died in hospital due to that and many doctors ridiculed Dr. Semmelweis for it then placed him in mental institute! In the end, Dr. Semmelweis gave up on these morons and committed suicide. In many years later, they finally realized that Dr. Semmelweis is right after all that babies & patients will have higher survival rates if doctors wash their hands before performing anything.

Another good example: Dr. Pasteur's idea that germs caused disease was ridiculed for years and years.

Another good example, Jesus repeatedly preached about social equality in different places and it got people panicked and crucified him for that (Well, they want to crucify him right after Jesus claimed that he is a son of God). Note: republicans strongly against the idea of social equality. Don't tell me that republicans aren't, simply because of gay marriage ban. It already proved my point.

Friend of mine made a good point. She said that no matter how many times I represent the facts, evidences, hard data, etc etc... people will not listen until reality sets in and spit on their faces then beat them down again and again until they finally make the connection. That's why any child(ren) tend to not listen to their parents about not touching the fire until they actually touch then make the connection. In many ways, most adults are children. Most adults cannot make a connection until reality sets in and spit on their face.

Here's harshest fact: That's what will happen to you people, whenever reality sets in and you will remember how right I am. I promise you that you will. I already accepted Jesus as my savior and have been practice what he preached ever since.

If I walk into the Congress and claim that God wants me to be a president. What do you think they will do? Put me in mental institute faster than I can blink. When Bush did and christians praised him for it, alter the fact or neglect the fact... That is quite scary. No wonder why more and more people start to wonder if Bush is the anti-christ.

Reba, that's my final words in this topic and may God save you and your soul when reality sets in. Good luck. Edit: I know that my post is pretty harsh at this moment and I apologize for it but I feel that bluntness is to be require in this post. No offense and I mean it well.

I choose to think differently, and I continue to believe in peace. People who truly wish for peace understand that it will never be obtained by bullying, control or aggression; only through love and compassion and respect for the oneness of all life.

Well spoken. That's exactly how or what I am doing. That's why there will be some kind of rebellion in the future. Big one. Anyway glad that you created the moral value topic and state the obvious facts. We can only hope that these people will finally make the connection and stop to think about their consequences. No action can go without consequence, that's the law.

Cheers!

 

[Reba]

You offend me by saying that only you and the other fundamentalists are God's specially chosen.

That is not what I said. Salvation is available to every one on earth.
"That whosoever believeth in him (Jesus) should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:15)
"Whosoever" means any one and every one, no exceptions. Jesus sacrificed His life for every one, past, present, and future, all over the world.

That is not God, only your thoughts about what God is.

No, that is what God said about Himself.

I choose to think differently...

Like you say, that is your choice; no person can or should try to force you to think differently. Only the Holy Spirit can convict people's hearts.

...and I continue to believe in peace.

Me too. I believe in the peace of Jesus Christ, the peace beyond understanding.
"Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men." (Luke 2:14)
"And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (Phillipians 4:7)
Jesus said, "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." (John 14:27)
Jesus said, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33)

People who truly wish for peace understand that it will never be obtained by bullying, control or aggression....

That's right. Jesus knocks at the door of the heart. He doesn't use a battering ram. The door of the heart can only be opened from the inside.

 

[Reba]

...they must practice what Jesus preach. how many do you think they have? Very, very and very few. As I have been giving you some examples of hypocritical christians such as Bush and others time to time.

Yes, you do enjoy judging others, even though no one judges you.

...altering the facts...

Who is altering facts?

What is your point about doctors Semmelweis and Pasteur?

Friend of mine made a good point. She said that no matter how many times I represent the facts, evidences, hard data, etc etc... people will not listen...

You keep saying that you have statistics and data about Christian hypocrits but you never show it. Do you really expect people to just take your word for it? You never show any numbers or data to back up your statements about the moral superiority of liberals versus conservatives.

Here's harshest fact: That's what will happen to you people...

Who are "you people"? That phrase is usually considered derogatory.

...whenever reality sets in and you will remember how right I am. I promise you that you will. I already accepted Jesus as my savior and have been practice what he preached ever since.

If you say that Jesus is your Savior, and you say that you practice what He preached, then I don't doubt or judge your heart. That is between you and God. If you really mean that, then you also won't judge other people, right?
The saved people of Jesus are sisters and brothers to one another. The Bible calls us "brethren". Proof of salvation is the desire for Christians to love one another.
"We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death." (I John 3:14)

No wonder why more and more people start to wonder if Bush is the anti-christ.

Huh? What people are wondering that?

Reba, that's my final words in this topic and may God save you and your soul when reality sets in. Good luck.

I don't believe in luck. I believe in God's providence. He has already saved my soul, and I praise Him for that.

 

[Sophia26]

Fuck Morals. Morals ain't going to pay my bills or put food on the tables.