Is it worth to be "oral"?

[kokonut]

Well, it would have helped me to understand why people looked at me like I was a freak growing up when they met me for the first time. I was told constantly that my speech was very good by my teachers, family and etc and that I must be so special. Well, when I tried talking to strangers, I get funny faces made at me. As a kid, that was very confusing. It made me not want to use my voice with anyone else in the later years. Working so hard with my speech skills and making sacrifices all those years only to end up not being able to fit in the hearing world no matter how hard I tried was a waste of time.

Somewhere along the line people make their decision on how they want to use their voice and decide if it still beneficial to do so.

 

[deafdyke]

And there are many d/hh folks whose speech are like other hearing folks' speech. I wouldn't put it in the "very rare" category at all with the numerous people I have met and seen elsewhere over the years and today. But why bother trying to compare a person's speech to that of a hearing person? What is the point of that? Why rate a person's speech as "nearly indistinguishable" to that of a hearing person or that a person's speech is the same as a hearing person? What's really important is that a person's speech is an intelligible one.

Are they born/early dhh? Sorry but with the FACT that even HOH as kids people still have deaf accents, you really cannot generalize.....and even with the ones that have "pretty voices" they often tend not to have on par spoken LANGUAGE/lower verbal IQs (which measures mastery of language).....
YOU were the one who started obessing on dhh as kids people sounding like hearing people................but no matter the quality of their speech, their speech skills will only ever allow VERY partial access to the "mainstream"/hearing world......saying that oral skills will allow unfettered access to the mainstream,is like saying that a French person who speaks English pretty well will have unfettered access to the English speaking world.
And oralism implies that if a dhh kid learns to speak (and become "normal") they will have unfettered access to the mainstream......That sadly is not true....Even oral sucesses often have major issues socially and emotionally, and will often complain they feel like they don't fit in the hearing world!

 

[kokonut]

Are they born/early dhh? Sorry but with the FACT that even HOH as kids people still have deaf accents, you really cannot generalize.....and even with the ones that have "pretty voices" they often tend not to have on par spoken LANGUAGE/lower verbal IQs (which measures mastery of language).....
YOU were the one who started obessing on dhh as kids people sounding like hearing people................but no matter the quality of their speech, their speech skills will only ever allow VERY partial access to the "mainstream"/hearing world......saying that oral skills will allow unfettered access to the mainstream,is like saying that a French person who speaks English pretty well will have unfettered access to the English speaking world.
And oralism implies that if a dhh kid learns to speak (and become "normal") they will have unfettered access to the mainstream......That sadly is not true....Even oral sucesses often have major issues socially and emotionally, and will often complain they feel like they don't fit in the hearing world!

I'm sorry, but "pretty voices" do not make any sense at all when there are myriads of different accents and regional dialects out there. Exactly what is a "pretty voice"? That's a new one there. I've met hearing southerners that have these really heavy drawls that even other non-southerners would have a hard time understanding what's being said. Exactly what would make a "pretty voice" among hearing people anyways? I've met hard of hearing people with a southern drawling voice. Even I as a transplanted southerner picked up southern accent while as a young boy. My younger sister who is hearing picked up more of the southern accent than me while my older hearing brother didn't. Rather an interesting process we've experienced on how we managed to pick up a southern voice. But what exactly is a "pretty voice"? To speak with a drawling southern voice? To speak with a Creole or Cajun voice like those in the backwaters of the bayous of Louisiana? A "Yankee" voice? A Texan accent? A strong Italian accent of those raised in an Italian family in New York City? Exactly what is your version of a "pretty voice"?

There is no obsessin' here since there are deaf/hh people who do talk just like any other hearing people. Just a factual matter here.

I never said oral skills will allow "unfettered access to the mainstream." That was yours alone. Saying "unfettered access" implies both complete hearing and communicative access which is not true. Rather it's the oral & aural skills that help provide the necessary access to the mainstream segment of society and that vary among those with hearing loss ranging from mild to profound. It does not, however, constitute as "unfettered access." There are certain limitations among those with hearing loss even with a hearing aid or cochlear implant. Unfettered access it is not.

You are now doing this whole red herring by diverging over to the "social & emotional" side of the discussion. This discussion is not about that. What this is about is the fact that there are deaf/hh people who speak just like any other hearing people whether one has an accent or not. The subject matter here is the speaking portion where aural feedback is crucially important.

There are plenty of deaf/hh people that talk with a "deaf accent" but so what? Yet, just as well, there are plenty more that talk just like any other hearing people but so what? As long as you have intelligible speech then that all it matters for people to understand what's being said.

What I see is a lot of projection going on. This is not about trying to "fit in" but about adapting in an environment to the extent of the person's limitations, abilities and skills. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[BecLak]

Wirelessly posted

It was the same for me Shel, I would be told that i sound just like a hearing person by adults and then by children i was told i speak funny. The audiologists would tell me they could tell i had hearing loss. A dhh person can only attain comprehendable speech at best. 'Perfect speech' is a fantasy. I still struggle with many words. Yet my written English is fluent.

 

[kokonut]

Wirelessly posted

It was the same for me Shel, I would be told that i sound just like a hearing person by adults and then by children i was told i speak funny. The audiologists would tell me they could tell i had hearing loss. A dhh person can only attain comprehendable speech at best. 'Perfect speech' is a fantasy. I still struggle with many words. Yet my written English is fluent.

"Perfect speech" is just as much nonsense to be used among hearing people. It is an utterly nonsense term to use and doesn't make any sense, regardless. "Perfect speech" is subjective and relative and yet people need not to get hung up on over that term. If speech is intelligible and people can clearly understand your speech then what's the problem? Speaking styles vary with their regional accents and dialects. There is no such thing as "perfect speech."

 

[sylbea]

That's a good question. As you mentioned you're an introvert just as I am. I believe that high school did this to me. I was an extrovert before I was mainstreamed. I had lots of friends. In high school? Maybe a couple that I would call friends. Anyhow to answer your question as to how I feel about it. I wish that I had the best of both worlds. Education AND a robust social life. This is how I feel. Being mainstreamed by and large comes with a steep cost to your emotional intelligence quotient (EQ).

I have a question or two for you if you don't mind.

Question #1- Did you have an FM system in place either in school or at home or both? Did you have access to school note takers?

Question #2- This is kinda a biggie for you. Do you think there's a chance that your EQ would be higher if you were raised with a full toolbox? Please don't get me wrong ok? I'm not saying your EQ is low. You seem to be doing well considering your hearing loss.

1. Yes, I went through the FM system. But despite being able to hear the teacher's voice better, I relied more on speechreading to obtain information. Back then the teacher would always write down on the blackboard for us to take notes, so I didn't need a notetaker until I got one in college now. I've realised by now that I need someone to help me process better now that the environment of an art school has been... rather busy, to say the least. It's a challenge to adapt to.

2. You have a good point in that communication is crucial to one's own cognitive and emotional development. Had I been able to hear, or sign, I would have been able to pick up social cues more easily, and to actually get into the experience instead of not knowing what I had missed... I was a child then. I think it was in tenth grade when I became very aware of my hearing loss and speech and that I didn't really develop my social skills further than being seen as a student with "special needs". This is probably where my deep issue lies - I consider myself too proud - I never liked to be seen as the "special one" who would often be exempted from music, listening and oral tests. I understand one must be realistic about one's own limitations, but for the others to even have a say in this... it's no wonder I get discouraged easily. Good emotional development depends on the child himself and how his parents and others cultivate his abilities even with his limitations. That said, I should've focused on challenging my limitations - or making them even useful, rather than taking a 'no' for an answer. Then again, I was a child, so naturally I didn't know any better before I understood why I don't seem to resonate so easily emotionally-wise with hearing peers, despite being raised as 'hearing' myself. My emotional capacity is another matter - I've never been a people person - it just makes it all the more difficult to keep up in the increasingly quick-paced world of college and work, putting in a lot of effort as always.

How do you cope with the working world now?

 

[sylbea]

For me it was a survival reason. When I noticed interpreters don't always get what you're trying to say.. and the depending on them.. I wanted to be free and independent. So learning how to talk even though took up alot of my brain, its enabled me to have a job I otherwise would not have got if I couldn't talk. So ask yourself what do u want in life? Go pursue it. If I lived in Mexico I would have learned Spanish. Get my point?

Been there, done that, got it. How, then do you feel when you have to cope with speaking as well as listening, as part of the survival? Is it second nature to you now, or do you still find it tiring at times?

 

[sylbea]

Did you experiance inclusion?
I REALLY wish that instead of inclusion, they would do stuff like encourage dhh programs at hearing schools...........middle and high school are tough enough when you're hearing.....You are so right....inclusion/mainstreaming really does rob you of the chance to REALLY develop your EQ.....and that is a really important piece of the puzzle.......did you know a key to getting good jobs is social emotional development? Good education is only a part of the puzzle.

Certainly. It's discouraging how many deaf people are unemployed given the state of economy these days, even though there are many successful others in lucrative jobs.

It needs to be stressed that interpersonal skills don't have to be compromised with ignorance - that's what the deaf community is for. They know the situation well. In this world, the key to harmony is to recognise the difference in every person, and communicate accordingly than to try to conform them - just as there are different ways of communicating with each other. But that's very idealised.

We deaf people not the only one experiencing this problem with our EQs when it comes to work. At least there's the community you can contribute to, and there are still many factors that affect EQ regardless of disability. People will always discriminate against the "weaker" ones.

 

[sylbea]

this is true..
the only signers in my town are two boys teenager brothers,the parents kept them in main stream education bsl frowned on by parents,no expectations for them so all they do is pick shopping baskets up in local asda..i always bsl when i see them and they happy to see me and eager to learn...they themselves are bitter their parents no encouraged it and boys resigned to a life with no low expectations....only so much i can do both them and myself need own peer group

It's unfortunate how that turned out for them. It needs to be more known that not everyone will necessarily benefit from mainstreaming.

If you don't mind me asking, do they speak? If so, are they well-understood?

 

[sylbea]

Using one's voice is natural. Over time speaking becomes automatic and natural. For some it does require a bit of skill to achieve that while others it comes much more easily and naturally for them across the wide spectrum of hearing loss. It'd be better to have oral/aural approaches to compliment with one of the visual communication methods (SEE, ASL, Cued speech, etc) for many of them.

Not necessarily better if one still has yet to grasp of the concept of sound. It's the same with dyslexia or auditory processing disorder. For some, deafness is due to a neurological problem, and that will always require some effort to compensate.

 

[sylbea]

I will disagree on the point that speaking cannot become a "well oiled muscle that can be used unconsciously" when obviously it can by those with hearing loss. There are some hh people who do not even need to think about their speaking when speaking has already become 2nd nature for them. For example, I talk to many of my co-workers, supervisor or even clients over the phone and speak without even thinking about it. It has become natural for me to speak for a long time. I just don't think about it whenever I talk. To me, it comes to me naturally now when in the past I had to work on it. It seems that your experiences are quite different from mine.

How did you work on your speech skills, if you don't mind me asking? What about when you listen?

 

[kokonut]

Not necessarily better if one still has yet to grasp of the concept of sound. It's the same with dyslexia or auditory processing disorder. For some, deafness is due to a neurological problem, and that will always require some effort to compensate.

Certainly. What I stated presumes a person with a hearing loss that does not have any of the additional condition as you have stated. There are a variety of factors that would help a person attain the necessary speaking skills. There are also other factors that would prevent such attainment or achieve very little.

 

[kokonut]

How did you work on your speech skills, if you don't mind me asking? What about when you listen?

I constantly speak all the time ever since I was little. The whole process of speaking is very natural for me. I use my hearing aid to listen with my moderate-severe hearing loss. Yet the key factor was the early intervention on getting me a hearing aid at age 2 (this was back in 1967) and parental involvement by engaging me on a daily basis. I was quite fortunate for the early identification and getting a hearing aid. Speech sessions or therapies were limited due to my already advancing speech skills. In fact, I had very few speech sessions while growing up. Just had to practice the "R" sound as in "Arrrr matey!" and be aware of it and that was it.

 

[sylbea]

For some people the term "oral" is seen/defined differently by some people. It could be "oral" as in without auditory inputs or "oral" where auditory input (aural) provide the necessary feedback to hear oneself enunciate properly the consonants, vowels, and the modulation and inflection of the voice. Typically I would put down both oral and aural (oral/aural) together just to be clear since it does not make a lot a sense to me on learning how to speak if one does not have the necessary auditory feedback to learn. Also, the amount of hearing loss, type of hearing loss, parental involvement, and early intervention all play a role on helping develop speaking skills.

"Oral" is just used more commonly than "aural", perhaps to avoid confusion. If anything, the latter would be the correct word to put it.

 

[kokonut]

"Oral" is just used more commonly than "aural", perhaps to avoid confusion. If anything, the latter would be the correct word to put it.

Which is why I prefer to use oral-aural term as a clarification. The term "oral" by itself is not necessarily clear on the requisite auditory input. Plus you have to deal with the "old school" oral vs today's oral which have different connotations. The term "aural" deals with auditory input and not about speaking skill which, in fact, mostly hinges on the necessary auditory feedback via a hearing aid or cochlear implant.

 

[deafdyke]

Which is why I prefer to use oral-aural term as a clarification. The term "oral" by itself is not necessarily clear on the requisite auditory input. Plus you have to deal with the "old school" oral vs today's oral which have different connotations. The term "aural" deals with auditory input and not about speaking skill which, in fact, mostly hinges on the necessary auditory feedback via a hearing aid or cochlear implant.

RME................There have ALWAYS been functionally HOH kids with "deaf"losses............not all oral deaf kids were the type of kid who could only hear 10% of speech through a body worn hearing aid.
Besides HOH kids experiance being oral and in the mainstream, almost identical as to deafer kids.........the ONLY difference is that they've got a bit more residual hearing........

 

[deafdyke]

If you don't understand my jab about "pretty voices" it's OBVIOUS you never experianced an oral deaf school/program where they make SUCH a BIG DEAL about "pretty voices"...The kid may be behind in all other aspects but is treated as special b/c s/he has a pretty voice...
Same with auditory verbal......that's an approach that is absolutly fixtated on making a dhh kid function as "normally" as possible.......without a deaf accent....it's still going on. It's NOT treated as a great skill to have but as a be all and end all.

 

[kokonut]

RME................There have ALWAYS been functionally HOH kids with "deaf"losses............not all oral deaf kids were the type of kid who could only hear 10% of speech through a body worn hearing aid.
Besides HOH kids experiance being oral and in the mainstream, almost identical as to deafer kids.........the ONLY difference is that they've got a bit more residual hearing........

This is about their speech skills or speaking ability with the help of hearing aids or cochlear implants that provide the necessary auditory feedback. Early intervention and other factors make a huge difference for a deaf/hh person's speaking ability.

 

[ambrosia]

I'm really really curious about how beneficial people have found being raised oral as far as employment goes. I'm late deafened so my oralism (is that a word? I don't care) is a given. But I wonder how objectively people can look at this. I'm not talking about socializing and family life, but with your communication with the world at large. WOuld you have the job you have if hadn't been given oral skills? Would you be as self sufficient and independent if you hadn't? If you are does that factor weigh in on if it was worth it?

I'm not talking about speaking perfectly, but adequately. Just because you can't do something perfectly doesn't seem to be a reason to not do it at all. Adequate seems fine, are you understood? Okay, that's adequate.

 

[Mewtilation]

I'm really really curious about how beneficial people have found being raised oral as far as employment goes. I'm late deafened so my oralism (is that a word? I don't care) is a given. But I wonder how objectively people can look at this. I'm not talking about socializing and family life, but with your communication with the world at large. WOuld you have the job you have if hadn't been given oral skills? Would you be as self sufficient and independent if you hadn't? If you are does that factor weigh in on if it was worth it?

I'm not talking about speaking perfectly, but adequately. Just because you can't do something perfectly doesn't seem to be a reason to not do it at all. Adequate seems fine, are you understood? Okay, that's adequate.

Exactly my point prior. I was sent to vocal therapy before my C.I. ( as a kid / teen ) and then went even more after getting my C.I. in my 20's. I am a P.A. in an emergency room working with triage patients. There is no way in hells toilet I could work doing what I do if my speech weren't at least semi-clear. Oh yes Mrs. Smith, I'm sorry your husband died in the operating room... see when he was taken into triage, our P.A. was asking for clamps to stop the bleeding and nobody could understand her... so he died... sorry about that. I can see that going over swimmingly. :roll: just honesty, I couldn't do what I do personally without my oral skills. Do I care if a deaf person can't even mutter a clear word? No, I can sign... do I care if they can speak clear as a hearie? Nope, still don't care. However there are certain lines of work such as my own where I have to be clearer. *shrug*