Is it worth to be "oral"?

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Bebonang said:
Kokonut, as far as I am concern that you are the most audist person I have ever met for many subjects (comments) past and present. You don't know the heck on what we have tried to explain for years ever since you came on AD. :roll: :P
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I just have a different take and opinion when it comes to communication needs and options that are available. No need to explain.
 
Mewtilation said:
I have family members like me who were born deaf and never went to voc therapy. They still use their voices when they speak at times. You can't understand a DAMN thing they say, but they still use it even though they sign. I don't think using your voice is just taught to the deaf in schools, it's a natural part of us and we can use it or not depending on one's personal preferences.
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Yes, using one's own voice is natural.
 
kokonut said:
I just have a different take and opinion when it comes to communication needs and options that are available. No need to explain.
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Or perhaps it's b/c you never were taught to think for yourself....You are doing pretty much what those kids who were told and believed that oral skills= "better education" or more "access" to the hearing world......the problem is that oral skills only gives PARTIAL access to the hearing world...Very PARTIAL access....That is a FAR FAR FAR cry from full unfettered access..Even those of us with good oral skills get treated like a stranger in a strange land....You obviously felt like you didn't entirely fit into the hearing world after all.............you went to Gally and you hang out here.....
 
deafdyke said:
Or perhaps it's b/c you never were taught to think for yourself....You are doing pretty much what those kids who were told and believed that oral skills= "better education" or more "access" to the hearing world......the problem is that oral skills only gives PARTIAL access to the hearing world...Very PARTIAL access....That is a FAR FAR FAR cry from full unfettered access..Even those of us with good oral skills get treated like a stranger in a strange land....You obviously felt like you didn't entirely fit into the hearing world after all.............you went to Gally and you hang out here.....
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Never said oral skills equal better education. That's your way of twisting it. Although hearing aids or cochlear implants can and do provide access in the hearing world whether it's access to music, communication, or other sound. The level and extent of access varies from person to person with hearing loss. Unfettered it is not.

I went to Gally because I was curious. Also, went to George Washington University while as a student at Gally, too. And afterwards went to graduate school. I went to school with just myself and my hearing aid.

Let's not project, shall we?
 
kokonut said:
Look what I said. Using one's voice is natural and not that speaking comes naturally.
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If it's so "nautral" then how come dhh kids have to be consciously taught to speak? Using voice is the norm for hearing people yes............And this whole "oh it's nautral" argument seems to just be another version of "it's healthy and "normal" to speak.
It's nautral to walk......does that mean that kids with clubfeet or mild but still effects their walking shouldn't use wheelchairs as an additional option? It's nautral to see....does that mean that blind/low vision kids should exclusively use their vision, and not say Braille,aural aids,(ie books on tape) and other BLV accomondations?
 
kokonut said:
Never said oral skills equal better education. That's your way of twisting it. ?
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No, you've implied it MANY MANY times You really have bought into the thinking "oh it's normal/nautral" so it's better" thinking.....Hell, I see this argument used by mildly mentally disabled folks "Oh I've always been in the normal world! So it's "better"" Missing of course that they don't really have access to the mainstream of life......
 
deafdyke said:
No, you've implied it MANY MANY times You really have bought into the thinking "oh it's normal/nautral" so it's better" thinking.....Hell, I see this argument used by mildly mentally disabled folks "Oh I've always been in the normal world! So it's "better"" Missing of course that they don't really have access to the mainstream of life......
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If that's the case then find exactly where I implied it "many, many" times. Should be pretty easy to find them.
 
deafdyke said:
If it's so "nautral" then how come dhh kids have to be consciously taught to speak? Using voice is the norm for hearing people yes............And this whole "oh it's nautral" argument seems to just be another version of "it's healthy and "normal" to speak.
It's nautral to walk......does that mean that kids with clubfeet or mild but still effects their walking shouldn't use wheelchairs as an additional option? It's nautral to see....does that mean that blind/low vision kids should exclusively use their vision, and not say Braille,aural aids,(ie books on tape) and other BLV accomondations?
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All babies with their voice box and muscles intact use their voice naturally but they cannot speak. Screaming in fear or in pain is natural as it comes from the voice. Making guttural sounds is natural. Speaking, again, however, is a skill to be developed. I didn't say speaking is done naturally by deaf people. We either use what we have or we don't.
 
Bottesini said:
Here you go!

AllDeaf.com - Search Results
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"I have family members like me who were born deaf and never went to voc therapy. They still use their voices when they speak at times. You can't understand a DAMN thing they say, but they still use it.."
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I have family members like me who were born deaf and never went to voc therapy. They still use their voices when they speak at times. You can't understand a DAMN thing they say, but they still use it..
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I wasn't the originator of those comments as seen on the first page of the search result with my name on it.....click on the links in the search. Not quite an accurate search on who said what.
 
kokonut said:
All babies with their voice box and muscles intact use their voice naturally but they cannot speak. Screaming in fear or in pain is natural as it comes from the voice. Making guttural sounds is natural. Speaking, again, however, is a skill to be developed. I didn't say speaking is done naturally by deaf people. We either use what we have or we don't.
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That's not speaking/spoken language............that's making sound.....big difference.....
 
deafdyke said:
If it's so "nautral" then how come dhh kids have to be consciously taught to speak? Using voice is the norm for hearing people yes............And this whole "oh it's nautral" argument seems to just be another version of "it's healthy and "normal" to speak.
It's nautral to walk......does that mean that kids with clubfeet or mild but still effects their walking shouldn't use wheelchairs as an additional option? It's nautral to see....does that mean that blind/low vision kids should exclusively use their vision, and not say Braille,aural aids,(ie books on tape) and other BLV accomondations?
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You do have a good point there. Us dhh are capable of using our voice boxes, no problem there. We can shout, grunt, squeal, guffaw, burp with no problem. That's natural. Speech for us however is not natural. It doesn't come to us unconsciously. For many of us speaking/oral is not enough. Many of us need more. As deafdyke said blind/low vision people use aids to help them 'see'. They use their other senses to compensate, namely their hearing and touch. Hearing and touch are two of our five senses. Those are natural right? Why can't we use our other senses to compensate to go along with speaking? Heck, speaking is not even a sense. It's just a tool.
 
deafdyke said:
That's not speaking/spoken language............that's making sound.....big difference.....
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As I said before, again, using one's voice is natural and not that speaking comes naturally.
 
sheri363 said:
You do have a good point there. Us dhh are capable of using our voice boxes, no problem there. We can shout, grunt, squeal, guffaw, burp with no problem. That's natural. Speech for us however is not natural. It doesn't come to us unconsciously. For many of us speaking/oral is not enough. Many of us need more. As deafdyke said blind/low vision people use aids to help them 'see'. They use their other senses to compensate, namely their hearing and touch. Hearing and touch are two of our five senses. Those are natural right? Why can't we use our other senses to compensate to go along with speaking? Heck, speaking is not even a sense. It's just a tool.
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Right. Speaking is a tool. A skill to be developed. Just like riding a bike is not natural in the beginning but after awhile it becomes 2nd nature or natural, and even sometimes biking become an extension of themselves (e.g. BMX stunt bikers doing all those cool flips and turns).
 
kokonut said:
Right. Speaking is a tool. A skill to be developed. Just like riding a bike is not natural in the beginning but after awhile it becomes 2nd nature or natural, and even sometimes biking become an extension of themselves (e.g. BMX stunt bikers doing all those cool flips and turns).
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Right, speaking is a tool. BUT.... for us it never becomes natural, no matter how much training and practice we undergo. Speaking for us never becomes a well oiled muscle that can be used unconsciously. You're right a bike does become 2nd nature. Our legs just pump along..we don't have to think about it. Our leg muscles simply memorize from repetition. They become well oiled per se. We on the other hand have to think about our speech constantly because we basically can't hear most or all of the consonants. Think about this ok? "I can hear you but I don't understand what you said!!" Sounds familiar? If we can't hear most of the alphabet, even when aided, then how can our speech become natural extensions of ourselves? It's just a frigging flawed tool for us.
 
sheri363 said:
Right, speaking is a tool. BUT.... for us it never becomes natural, no matter how much training and practice we undergo. Speaking for us never becomes a well oiled muscle that can be used unconsciously. You're right a bike does become 2nd nature. Our legs just pump along..we don't have to think about it. Our leg muscles simply memorize from repetition. They become well oiled per se. We on the other hand have to think about our speech constantly because we basically can't hear most or all of the consonants. Think about this ok? "I can hear you but I don't understand what you said!!" Sounds familiar? If we can't hear most of the alphabet, even when aided, then how can our speech become natural extensions of ourselves? It's just a frigging flawed tool for us.
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I will disagree on the point that speaking cannot become a "well oiled muscle that can be used unconsciously" when obviously it can by those with hearing loss. There are some hh people who do not even need to think about their speaking when speaking has already become 2nd nature for them. For example, I talk to many of my co-workers, supervisor or even clients over the phone and speak without even thinking about it. It has become natural for me to speak for a long time. I just don't think about it whenever I talk. To me, it comes to me naturally now when in the past I had to work on it. It seems that your experiences are quite different from mine.
 
I hate to say it, but you can train yourself to do ANYTHING second nature.... including speaking. Everything we learn to do in life is learning to coordinate and use muscles to remember such activities. Driving, riding a bike, dance moves.... whatever. I was born Deaf. I never spoke, until I started going to Voc Therapy. I HAVE to speak at work.... HAVE to. There is no way around it. I have worked there for a few years and I do not think about having to speak there, it just happens. Now when I'm out with friends or family or whatever, do I speak? Hardly, unless someone needs me to. I am fluent in ASL and most of my friends and family sign, why do I need to? I will tell you though, when you NEED to do something, you learn... Period. I don't think about speaking at work. I don't think "work time, need to speak!" It's just something inside me that knows when I'm there I need to speak. I don't think about it, it just happens. I do as I said have to think about speaking outside of work. So just as an example, you can teach yourself to do anything second nature. You're not born knowing how to ride a bike. You're not born even knowing how to speak! You're trained and taught those things. Whether you're 1 or 80, you can always train yourself to do something new and be so good at it, it's like second nature. I drive a stick car and a motorcycle. I can't tell you HOW many times I look down and go "How the hell and when the hell did I get to 5th gear? I don't even remember shifting out of first!?" Was I always that good? HELL NO! I dropped my mothers transmission out of her Camero learning! :laugh2: However now, it's a second nature to drive stick. We're not born knowing crap. We're born and we know how to poop, eat and whine. Everything else was taught and it's now what? Second nature. Realistically if you wanted to look at it that way, everything we know and are good at is a second nature. Walking, typing, spelling, Sign Language ect. I wasn't born knowing ASL! But you're damn right I sign so fast I have terps tell me to slow down. Second.....Nature. Anything can be second nature if we do it enough. Practice practice practice! Repetition repetition repetition! That's all it is, plain and simple. Again I hate to agree, but I kind of have to. *shrug*
 
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