Gun control

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a food for thought - "If our government cannot perform simple tasks like filling our criminal record forms and entering information into databases, then why in the world would we burden federal employees with new gun laws that do nothing but restrict the constitutional rights of citizens and vendors in full compliance with the law?"

after reading Reba's link on how military handles dishonorable discharge.... our civilian gun law system (NCIC) works just fine and it would prevent this lunatic from buying guns. so the military will need to fix its mess and report to NCIC as required.
 
seb said:
So how many mass shootings do we have to have in the U.S. before something is done? Sunday's shooting was the 377th mass shooting of the year. What is the magic number we have to reach? We don't have to wait for all the facts to come in on this latest shooting, we already have 376 others to tell us something needs to be done. We have a dis functional Congress that is being controlled by the special interests and the lobbyist and could really care less about the people of the United States or their safety, it's sad, but true!
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I thought I told you already?

I'm perfectly fine with any proposed gun control laws that focus on criminals, not law-abiding citizens. got any?
 
seb said:
. . . As to the civilian who shot the shooter, I wouldn't classify the guy as a hero, a hero would of gone inside the church and shot him there. He waited until the guy came out of the church after 20 minutes and engaged him as he came outside. Yes, it's good that he got him, he saved the taxpayers a lot of money,but he himself said he's no hero! You take away the AR-15's from the criminals and you don't have to worry about a defensive hero having a similar weapon.
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Where on earth did you get 20 minutes?!

Where did you get that Stephen Willeford "waited"? I checked many sources, and they all said/posted that his daughter woke him up when she heard the gunshots. He grabbed and loaded his gun while she watched the church. He ran out to the church without taking time to put on shoes. He lived a block from the church. As soon as he arrived at the church he engaged the gunman who was on his way out of the building. There is no way he could have gotten there sooner.

The whole church shooting took only a few minutes, no where close to 20.

So I guess none of the gun lovers use any handguns, rifles or shotguns anymore, or do you have to pepper your target with shots from your semi automatic hoping one will eventually hit something vital?
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Every situation is different. In this case, Willeford saw that the shooter was wearing a vest so he took careful aim at the gap of the vest.

Yes, sometimes it takes many shots to bring down a threat. It's not so easy to hit a moving target while trying not to be shot yourself.
 
Jiro said:
a food for thought - "If our government cannot perform simple tasks like filling our criminal record forms and entering information into databases, then why in the world would we burden federal employees with new gun laws that do nothing but restrict the constitutional rights of citizens and vendors in full compliance with the law?"

after reading Reba's link on how military handles dishonorable discharge.... our civilian gun law system (NCIC) works just fine and it would prevent this lunatic from buying guns. so the military will need to fix its mess and report to NCIC as required.
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It wouldn't have prevented him from buying a firearm because he was a lunatic, it would of prevented him from buying because of his military and criminal records. Without a mental portion to the check all you do is let crazy people with no criminal records buy guns and then give all you law abiding gun owning and loving citizens a bad name.
 
Jiro said:
I thought I told you already?

I'm perfectly fine with any proposed gun control laws that focus on criminals, not law-abiding citizens. got any?
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What about mental defectives or lunatics? Most if not all of these mass shooters had clean background checks, yet they had known or unknown mental issues. So what you're saying is you are okay with people with mental disorders owning guns, you just want to keep the criminals or people with a criminal past from owning them! Last time I looked the most of the mass shooters had clean criminal records, so your method would do nothing to stop these killers and still allow these shootings to happen. I think you need to do some more work on how to keep the guns out of the hands of those who should not be allowed to buy!
 
Here's why he used an AR-15:


http://www.4029tv.com/article/man-who-shot-texas-church-gunman-shares-his-story/13437943

(video has captions)

(transcript)
WEBVTT REPORTER:
STEPHEN WILLEFORD SAYS IN ALL OF HIS TRAINING WITHFIREARMS HE HOPED TO NEVER HAVE, TO USE A WEAPON IN THIS KIND OF SITUATION. HE USED -- AN A.R.-15

>> I KNEW I WAS GOING INTO A SITUATION THAT I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I WAS GOING TO BE LOOKING AT.

REPORTER:
STEPHEN WILLEFORD, WHO IS 55-YEARS-OLD, GREW UP AROUND FIREARMS RAISED ON A FARM, LATER BECOMING AN NRA INSTRUCTOR.

>>WHEN I WENT TO MY SAFE AND I PULLED OUT AN AR-15, PEOPLE SAY 'WHY WOULD YOU PULL OUT AN AR-15 IF YOU HAVE A PISTOL?', AND I WOULD SAY, ESPECIALLY KNOWING -- KNOWING HE HAD BLACK TACTICAL ARMOR. ARMOR SAYS THAT A PISTOL IS NOT GOING TO PENETRATE IT AND THAT'S WHAT'S IT'S FOR.-- WHAT IT IS FOR. AND AN AR15 CAN PENETRATE BODY ARMOR. NOT NECESSARILY RELIABLY, BUT A WHOLE LOT BETTER THAN A PISTOL CAN.

REPORTER:
WILLEFORD NEVER THOUGHT HE WOULD NEED TO USE A FIREARM AGAINST ANOTHER PERSON.

>> PRACTICE, THAT KIND OF THING; YOU HOPE YOU NEVER HAVE TO, ACTUALLY FACE A SITUATION LIKE THIS.

REPORTER:

HIS DAUGHTER, STEPHANIE, WAS TAUGHT TO BE AROUND FIREARMS. FROM HIS EXAMPLE, IN A YOUTH SHOOTING LEAGUE.

>> WE LEARNED FROM A VERY YOUNG AGE HOW TO HANDLE GUNS RESPECTFULLY, AND PROPERLY, AND TO USE CAUTION. WE KNOW HOW TO HANDLE A GUN. WE KNOW OUR WAY AROUND IT.

REPORTER:
STEPHANIE IS GRATEFUL TO HER DAD FOR YEARS OF TRAINING, AND GLAD THAT THE WORLD CAN SEE HE'S A HERO. ARE YOU PROUD OF YOUR DAD?

>> 100%. LIKE I SAID, HE HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY HERO. NOW HE IS EVERYONE ELSE'S HERO.

REPORTER:
FOR STEPHEN AND STEPHANIE WILLEFORD SAY THAT-- THEY BOTH SAY THAT WHEN IT COMES TO FIREARMS SAFETY, EDUCATION IS THE KEY. LIVE IN SUTHERLAND SPRINGS,
 
Reba said:
Where on earth did you get 20 minutes?!

Where did you get that Stephen Willeford "waited"? I checked many sources, and they all said/posted that his daughter woke him up when she heard the gunshots. He grabbed and loaded his gun while she watched the church. He ran out to the church without taking time to put on shoes. He lived a block from the church. As soon as he arrived at the church he engaged the gunman who was on his way out of the building. There is no way he could have gotten there sooner.

-I don't know what station I was watching when they interviewed him, but he said he heard gunshots as he was outside and knew with each shot someone else was being shot.

The whole church shooting took only a few minutes, no where close to 20.

-Shooting started at 11am and the first call to the police came in at 11:20.


Every situation is different. In this case, Willeford saw that the shooter was wearing a vest so he took careful aim at the gap of the vest.
- From what he said on the news, the shooter came out and they exchanged fire. I doubt that in the heat of battle he had time to take careful aim and shoot at the gap in the vest. Probably was more likely a lucky shot that hit Kelley.

Yes, sometimes it takes many shots to bring down a threat. It's not so easy to hit a moving target while trying not to be shot yourself.
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You answered your previous statement with this response.
 
Reba said:
Here's why he used an AR-15:


http://www.4029tv.com/article/man-who-shot-texas-church-gunman-shares-his-story/13437943

(video has captions)

(transcript)
WEBVTT REPORTER:
STEPHEN WILLEFORD SAYS IN ALL OF HIS TRAINING WITHFIREARMS HE HOPED TO NEVER HAVE, TO USE A WEAPON IN THIS KIND OF SITUATION. HE USED -- AN A.R.-15

>> I KNEW I WAS GOING INTO A SITUATION THAT I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I WAS GOING TO BE LOOKING AT.

REPORTER:
STEPHEN WILLEFORD, WHO IS 55-YEARS-OLD, GREW UP AROUND FIREARMS RAISED ON A FARM, LATER BECOMING AN NRA INSTRUCTOR.

>>WHEN I WENT TO MY SAFE AND I PULLED OUT AN AR-15, PEOPLE SAY 'WHY WOULD YOU PULL OUT AN AR-15 IF YOU HAVE A PISTOL?', AND I WOULD SAY, ESPECIALLY KNOWING -- KNOWING HE HAD BLACK TACTICAL ARMOR. ARMOR SAYS THAT A PISTOL IS NOT GOING TO PENETRATE IT AND THAT'S WHAT'S IT'S FOR.-- WHAT IT IS FOR. AND AN AR15 CAN PENETRATE BODY ARMOR. NOT NECESSARILY RELIABLY, BUT A WHOLE LOT BETTER THAN A PISTOL CAN.

REPORTER:
WILLEFORD NEVER THOUGHT HE WOULD NEED TO USE A FIREARM AGAINST ANOTHER PERSON.

>> PRACTICE, THAT KIND OF THING; YOU HOPE YOU NEVER HAVE TO, ACTUALLY FACE A SITUATION LIKE THIS.

REPORTER:

HIS DAUGHTER, STEPHANIE, WAS TAUGHT TO BE AROUND FIREARMS. FROM HIS EXAMPLE, IN A YOUTH SHOOTING LEAGUE.

>> WE LEARNED FROM A VERY YOUNG AGE HOW TO HANDLE GUNS RESPECTFULLY, AND PROPERLY, AND TO USE CAUTION. WE KNOW HOW TO HANDLE A GUN. WE KNOW OUR WAY AROUND IT.

REPORTER:
STEPHANIE IS GRATEFUL TO HER DAD FOR YEARS OF TRAINING, AND GLAD THAT THE WORLD CAN SEE HE'S A HERO. ARE YOU PROUD OF YOUR DAD?

>> 100%. LIKE I SAID, HE HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY HERO. NOW HE IS EVERYONE ELSE'S HERO.

REPORTER:
FOR STEPHEN AND STEPHANIE WILLEFORD SAY THAT-- THEY BOTH SAY THAT WHEN IT COMES TO FIREARMS SAFETY, EDUCATION IS THE KEY. LIVE IN SUTHERLAND SPRINGS,
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And the key to keeping us safe is to keep these kind of weapons out of the hands of lunatics!
 
seb said:
It wouldn't have prevented him from buying a firearm because he was a lunatic, it would of prevented him from buying because of his military and criminal records. Without a mental portion to the check all you do is let crazy people with no criminal records buy guns and then give all you law abiding gun owning and loving citizens a bad name.
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His domestic violence conviction was a criminal record. It just didn't get sent to the data base.

His involuntary time in the mental hospital was adjudicated, which would be another reason to deny gun purchase, but it too did not get sent to the data base.
 
(cont.)(not complete)

WEBVTT JOSHUA KOHL EXCLUSIVELY.

REPORTER: WE ARE JUST DOWN THE STREET. BEHIND ME IN THE DISTANCE, YOU CAN SEE THE YELLOW TENT. IN FRONT OF THAT, YOU CAN SEE A BLACK TRUCK. THAT IS WHERE THE MAN WAS ABLE TO GET TO AND EXCHANGE GUNFIRE, AND EVENTUALLY HELPED IN STOPPING HIM. FOR ME, THIS IS A VERY PERSONAL STORY. I KNOW HIM FROM GROWING UP. HE TOOK US TO THE CRIME SCENE, WHERE HE EXCHANGED GUNFIRE.

>> I COULD HEAR THE SHOTS.

REPORTER: YOU ARE ROUNDING THE CORNER HERE. IN THAT MOMENT, WHAT IS GOING THROUGH YOUR MIND?

>> I'M THINKING I HAVE GOT TO GET THERE AND STOP WHAT IS HAPPENING. WHEN HE SAW ME, HE REACTED TO ME. I DON'T THINK HE EXPECTED TO SEE ME.

>>THIS CAR HAS A BULLET HOLE. AND THERE'S ONE IN THE HOUSE. COULD YOU SEE PEOPLE?

>> NO. HE SHOT ACROSS THE STREET INTO THESE NEIGHBORS' HOMES. I KNEW THAT WOULD BE WORTHY TACTICAL GEAR -- GEAR WOULD NOT COVER.-- HE IS IN THE CAR. MADE ONE LAST SHOT.>>

REPORTER: WHERE WAS JOHNNY IN ALL THIS?

>> I WAS SCARED LIKE YOU CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE.

REPORTER: THEY SAY IN THAT MOMENT, THEY WERE THANKFUL FOR HIM TO BE ABLE TO GO OUT THERE. HE SAYS HE DOES NOT CONSIDER HIMSELF A HERO AT ALL.
 
http://www.4029tv.com/article/man-who-shot-texas-church-gunman-shares-his-story/13437943

Stephen Willeford shot and chased the man who killed 26 people in a Texas church on Sunday. He spoke to 40/29 News in an exclusive sit-down interview on Monday.

Willeford was at home when his daughter came into his bedroom to tell him she heard gunshots at the First Baptist Church nearby.

Willeford, a former NRA instructor, got his rifle out of his safe while his daughter looked outside again. She ran back in and told him she saw a man in black tactical gear shooting up the church.

"I kept hearing the shots, one after another, very rapid shots - just 'pop pop pop pop' and I knew every one of those shots represented someone, that it was aimed at someone, that they weren't just random shots," Willeford said."

Willeford loaded his magazine and ran across the street to the church, not even taking the time to put on shoes. When Willeford saw the gunman, he exchanged gunfire.

"He saw me and I saw him," Willeford said. "I was standing behind a pickup truck for cover."

"I know I hit him," Willeford said. "He got into his vehicle, and he fired another couple rounds through his side window. When the window dropped, I fired another round at him again."

The gunman then sped down the highway.

Willeford spotted a pickup truck at a stop sign. He ran to the truck and asked the driver for help.

"That guy just shot up the Baptist church. We need to stop him," Willeford told the driver.

Willeford and the driver chased the gunman down the highway. On the way, they called 911 to give a description of the gunman's vehicle and where they were.

Eventually, they caught up to the gunman's truck. The gunman slowed down before speeding up and hitting a road sign. The gunman's truck flipped and went down into a ditch.

Willeford got out of the truck and put his rifle on top of the truck, keeping his eye on where the gunman's vehicle was.

Willeford yelled "get out of the truck, get out of the truck," but never saw any movement. Law enforcement came to the scene. They believe the gunman committed suicide.

Willeford said he's no hero.

"I think my God, my Lord protected me and gave me the skills to do what needed to be done," Willeford said.

Willeford's family has lived in the Sutherland Springs area for four generations. He had numerous friends who went to the church.
 
Note: Civilian help arrived before first responders did.

"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."
 
seb said:
And the key to keeping us safe is to keep these kind of weapons out of the hands of lunatics!
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So, you have no problem with Willeford having and using an AR-15, right?
 
The active shooting in the church lasted 7 minutes, according to video.
 
What a tragedy. It's over 30 miles away from where I live. A shooter used to be an non-armed security at the Schlitterbahan Water Park until he was fired. Schlitterbahan Water Park said he had a state unarmed security license. He passed a background check through DPS. He had a deep hatred for children. Air Force definitely messed up. I'm glad the armed neighbor stopped him. He took his weapon and ran out of the house. He didn't put his shoes on.
 
Reba said:
So, you have no problem with Willeford having and using an AR-15, right?
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I have a problem with weapons of war being in the hands of any civilian.
 
Normal everyday people who don't know shit, don't even know that a Deer Rifle like a Winchester 300 Mag or 308, 30.06 is more powerful than an AR15. A Sniper rifle is a 308...lol AR's are just a fancy rifle that holds more rounds and that's it, strip the hand guard and stock off and its just a simple machine same as a deer rifle. First picture is the 308 and second is a bare AR15win308a.jpg AR15bare.jpg
 
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