Grammar

sailerboy said:
My focal point of the essay in the previous post was the illegible combinations of words, not minor grammar mistakes. I find it hard to believe that this is an exclusively Deaf site, as this site has a Hearing Aids, CI, etc.
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First, to verify, have you seen this topic? http://www.alldeaf.com/sign-language-oralism/76940-asl-only.html I'm going based off of the assumption that your question refers to people who write similar to everyone in that thread. If that's not what you mean, feel free to correct me.

On the very unlikely but possible off-chance that this is a genuine question, let me ask you a follow-up question. If this site was populated with a large number of Americans who were French ex-pats, and you occasionally saw posts in French, would you be asking why people kept writing gibberish words and used funny looking letters?

This isn't meant to be insulting, I'm actually wondering if that's the case. Because ASL is a distinct language, one that a large number of people here are fluent in or familiar with, and that occasionally people respond in.

sailerboy said:
I take it i'm not welcome here simply because i represent everything all of you stand against, that is, hard work, curiosity, novel ideas, and change. I'm going to go back to reading 1984.
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No, people responded negatively because your wording, attitude and questions were extremely condescending, arrogant and insulting. This response, even moreso.
 
I eagerly await all of the OP's super awesome retorts he totally had when originally posting this. :roll:
 
Short answer: Because Deaf generally don't spend their days talking to Oral speakers of English. And if they do, they may be talking to people who don't have 'good' grammar.

Most Deaf learn how to read and write English but don't advance. Most of the time, it's a matter of early language development and lack of proper instruction in either sign or English. *shrug* The out-of-order thing you see is syntax confusion.

Standard Academic English grammar is actually spoken by a minority of the hearing population. I'm one of them because I went to prep school and I wasn't allowed to speak anything but proper grammar. Not sure if you've noticed, but most people don't sound like CNN newscasters.
 
jillio said:
It is a realistic fear.
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Currently there are Deaf who resent CIs, so I'm sure it will go both ways! D'oh!

Actually, Jillio, because of your profession and experience, you can probably back me up when I say that MOST people who speak Standard English look down on ANYONE who does not!
 
TheOracle said:
Short answer: Because Deaf generally don't spend their days talking to Oral speakers of English. And if they do, they may be talking to people who don't have 'good' grammar.

Most Deaf learn how to read and write English but don't advance. Most of the time, it's a matter of early language development and lack of proper instruction in either sign or English. *shrug* The out-of-order thing you see is syntax confusion.

Standard Academic English grammar is actually spoken by a minority of the hearing population. I'm one of them because I went to prep school and I wasn't allowed to speak anything but proper grammar. Not sure if you've noticed, but most people don't sound like CNN newscasters.
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Oh, I noticed that a long ago.
 
messymama said:
Well, I hope no one gets offended by that, but I think it is somewhat true that deaf people (regardless of their education, since the oral-only adults I met are not necessarily better than the SL users) have a hard time with grammar. mmh... No, that's not the point. Many hearing people does not know how to write their mother language and have poor grammar skills, but deaf people usually make the same kind of mistakes. There are exceptions, though, and I ended up thinking the reason is just one, for both hearing and deaf: nobody was able to teach them to ENJOY READING. Deaf people of course may encounter more difficulties, because spoken english or italian will never be a "natural" language to them, even if it is their first language (and saying this make people in other forums flame me in a moment!) because born deaf people think differently. From the start! This explains why they do the same kind of mistakes... But the ones who like reading are usually better in writing, while the ones who were tortured as kids to "speak, read, write like all other kids" often come to HATE it all so much they'll never pick up a newspaper or book again in their life... And this happens a lot with hearing kids, too. That's why I'm not forcing my children to like books, I just leave them around (i LOVE reading) and read/sign for them when they ask me. Love is not something you can force on someone, but you can SHOW it. The, it's up to them. My hearing kid is already writing at 5 (learning by herself, copying letters), the deaf one doesn't seem interested for now, but that's ok, too.

I don't know, does this make sense to you... ?
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Makes perfect sense. It has been shown that children of readers become avid readers themselves. All it takes is being exposed to their parents getting enjoyment from the activity. They will then associate reading with enjoyment, and will seek books out.
 
TheOracle said:
Currently there are Deaf who resent CIs, so I'm sure it will go both ways! D'oh!

Actually, Jillio, because of your profession and experience, you can probably back me up when I say that MOST people who speak Standard English look down on ANYONE who does not!
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The Deaf that resent CIs are becoming more and more rare, fortunately. The resentment generally comes from the CI being used to support oral only environments for deaf kids.


Absolutely, I will back you up on that one.
 
Grammar is good, but only to get your point across and makes it easier for the audience to read. Is there anything else?
 
Another interesting discussion re deaf with Implants VS Deaf without.
The condition- deafness- presumably is the same for all deaf persons ?
However, the differentiation is what one does: re use-if suitable a Cochlear Implant OR utilitize ASL/BSL et al.

I am bilateral deaf-since December 20, 2006-today. Still easy to test-disconnect my Implant-when swimming! Real quiet!

Implanted Sunnybrook/Toronto Advanced bionics-harmony activated Aug/07
 
drphil, I'm wondering why it is difficult for you to get the point?
you have one perspective

other people have a different one-
 
sailerboy said:
This topic has been beaten to hell and back, I'm sure. I also fully expect to get flamed like never before.

Having said that, let me begin.

Many people who have a congenital deafness of a substantial amount do not achieve a full integration in the oral society. If they are able to communicate orally, the communication is usually done at a level of pre-4th grade grammar. For whatever reason, this grammar seems to translate onto AllDeaf.com. I understand the difficulty of human speech, but does this difficulty really translate to a completly textual form of communication?

I'm not going to call anyone out on this, but I have seen examples of fragments, run on sentences, tautology, among many other English grammar violations. I understand that this is an informal method of communication, but some of the things I have seen on here have made the sentences indecipherable and unreadable without (and in some cases, with) context. My question to you is why?

If one went to a deaf school, surely, they would teach proper English and grammar in a textual way. Even at hearing schools these things are taught in a textual manner. Does being deaf discourage people from learning the English language? Does being Deaf discourage people from learning the English language? What reduces the quality of textual communication?

I know someone will say to me: "How can you say this? You can't possibly know how hard this comes to us."

My response is this:
I know exactly how hard this comes to everyone. I am in the exact situation that I describe, a congenital hearing impairment of severe-profound loss. I am aided by hearing aids and nothing else. I go to an all hearing school and am at the top of my class in AP English. If anyone wants to contest me as a hypocrite, go right ahead. I'm sure that I will have a proper counterargument for whatever trial you put before me.

I don't intend to cause an uprising, nor do I intend to hurt anyone's feelings. I just want to know why.

TL;DR: Why do congenital deaf people generally have bad grammar?
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Not sure why this thread has lasted as long as it has, especially seen as sailerboy has ceased contributing but I realized I do have a comment on this.

One of the hallmarks of hearing culture is refusal to understand other people unless everything is stated to grammatical perfection. Among many, if not most, hearing people there is NO attempt to achieve understanding. Somehow believing the person with the best grammar is the superior person.

Deaf culture is exactly the opposite. Based pretty much on the belief that any two people can achieve mutual understanding if both people work at it.

I have noticed there are, and have been, posters whose writing is much easier understood if you translate the post into sign language. Some Deaf simply think in sign and write it in English.

Not so difficult if you know ASL.
 
According to his public profile, he is still lurking around the forum. So chances are he is still reading this thread.
 
Berry said:
Not sure why this thread has lasted as long as it has, especially seen as sailerboy has ceased contributing but I realized I do have a comment on this.

One of the hallmarks of hearing culture is refusal to understand other people unless everything is stated to grammatical perfection. Among many, if not most, hearing people there is NO attempt to achieve understanding. Somehow believing the person with the best grammar is the superior person.

Deaf culture is exactly the opposite. Based pretty much on the belief that any two people can achieve mutual understanding if both people work at it.

I have noticed there are, and have been, posters whose writing is much easier understood if you translate the post into sign language. Some Deaf simply think in sign and write it in English.

Not so difficult if you know ASL.
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I see this ALL the time in World of Warcraft forums. Man, the flamewars over grammar can get intense or last several pages before they get back to the subject or the thread gets closed over there.
 
Banjo said:
According to his public profile, he is still lurking around the forum. So chances are he is still reading this thread.
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Perhaps he feels a bit intimidated by the solid grammar exhibited by most of the replies here. *shrugs*

Hukt on fonix wirkt fer mee!
 
Berry said:
Not sure why this thread has lasted as long as it has, especially seen as sailerboy has ceased contributing but I realized I do have a comment on this.

One of the hallmarks of hearing culture is refusal to understand other people unless everything is stated to grammatical perfection. Among many, if not most, hearing people there is NO attempt to achieve understanding. Somehow believing the person with the best grammar is the superior person.

Deaf culture is exactly the opposite. Based pretty much on the belief that any two people can achieve mutual understanding if both people work at it.

I have noticed there are, and have been, posters whose writing is much easier understood if you translate the post into sign language. Some Deaf simply think in sign and write it in English.

Not so difficult if you know ASL.
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Deafies can be grammarians as well. They look down on people who have 'bad' ASL. The difference is that the written word is a mark of education.

Also, sometimes bad grammar helps me out on the internet, eg, when I say something like
wtf mate ! !
That shit is bananas.
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as it can show my tone and suggest what it sounds like out loud.

People don't tend to get into flame wars in person re: grammar. :) I suspect the reason why Deafies on here don't get up in arms about it is because they're sensitive to other people's backgrounds.
 
Berry said:
One of the hallmarks of hearing culture is refusal to understand other people unless everything is stated to grammatical perfection. Among many, if not most, hearing people there is NO attempt to achieve understanding. Somehow believing the person with the best grammar is the superior person.
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I'm pretty sure this is more of a hallmark of online culture (especially on websites where the majority of communication is done via text, such as a forum) than in the greater hearing culture, since my experience with other people in the general population is that grammar is much less of a focus there (such as in emails, text messages, etc) than online.
 
StSapphire said:
I'm pretty sure this is more of a hallmark of online culture (especially on websites where the majority of communication is done via text, such as a forum) than in the greater hearing culture, since my experience with other people in the general population is that grammar is much less of a focus there (such as in emails, text messages, etc) than online.
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:hmm: That's possible.

However, my parents think I don't know a lot of words because I have no idea how to pronounce the one that I do know. Phonics has never been my forte. They're always explaining the meanings of words that I already know much to my annoyance.

I've seen the hearing come down so hard on deaf when it comes to reading and writing that I became very conscious of my grammar; I'm always correcting my grammar but I never seem to find all of my mistakes before I post. They will dismiss those who have problems with writing and reading as not being very intelligent.

And it's not just deaf who has trouble with writing. I can think of one hearing poster right here on AD who has trouble writing. Every time I read that AD poster's post, I'm always aware of the effort that she put into her posts. It's clear from her posts that writing does not come easily or naturally to her. I'm sure she has gotten a lot of flak for this.
 
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