Follow policy: don't save lives

I have seen bits and pieces of this story. CPR can be dangerous, especially on the elderly with brittle bone. My guess would be that their protocol was established with their insurance provider. I get the protocol, but I doubt I would have followed protocol in this situation. Strange story.
OK, let's think about this. Sure death or broken ribs, which do I want? :hmm:

In an auto accident, TCS got a cracked sternum and three broken ribs. He survived. He says that if he needed CPR to live, and risked broken ribs, so be it. It would be worth it to live.

I would think broken bones would be a small price to pay for maintaining life.
 
It's a shame the nurse had to just sit by while the patient died. However, I know that there must be a valid reason for not allowing CPR. I can just imagine that someone with good intentions tried administering CPR but ended up killing the patient due to brittle bones or didn't know how to do CPR properly.
If the person stopped breathing, and without CPR that person will die, then the broken bones won't matter. You don't administer CPR unless the person has stopped breathing.
 
Sorry, its real life experiences that I have. You are not require to believe me but, I have been there seen enough not just tv but in real life. Sorry buddy.

there you go again. what did you watch this time? Sicko?
 
Sorry, its real life experiences that I have. You are not require to believe me but, I have been there seen enough not just tv but in real life. Sorry buddy.

interestingly enough.... I too have a real life experience and I have a different conclusion from yours.
 
Wirelessly posted

Tousi said:
CA has a Good Samaratin Law in case anyone's worried about getting sued......

So does FL. The trick is, you have to be certified in CPR in order to fall in that category. Now if an un-certified person performed CPR they can be sued if I am not mistaken.
 
Wirelessly posted

Reba said:
I have seen bits and pieces of this story. CPR can be dangerous, especially on the elderly with brittle bone. My guess would be that their protocol was established with their insurance provider. I get the protocol, but I doubt I would have followed protocol in this situation. Strange story.
OK, let's think about this. Sure death or broken ribs, which do I want? :hmm:

In an auto accident, TCS got a cracked sternum and three broken ribs. He survived. He says that if he needed CPR to live, and risked broken ribs, so be it. It would be worth it to live.

I would think broken bones would be a small price to pay for maintaining life.

In training we are taught that bones may or will break during CPR. They say keep pumping if you hear or feel ribs breaking. Like you said, the biggest threat is the heart, not broken bones.
 
Wirelessly posted

So does FL. The trick is, you have to be certified in CPR in order to fall in that category. Now if an un-certified person performed CPR they can be sued if I am not mistaken.
Then that's not a true Good Samaritan law. The whole point of the Good Sam law was to protect average people from being sued for trying to help others.
 
Then that's not a true Good Samaritan law. The whole point of the Good Sam law was to protect average people from being sued for trying to help others.

I just did some quick digging and it said that Good Samaritan Law typically does not apply to medical personnel at hospitals and probably this kind of facility too.

:ugh:
 
Wirelessly posted

Jiro said:
Then that's not a true Good Samaritan law. The whole point of the Good Sam law was to protect average people from being sued for trying to help others.

I just did some quick digging and it said that Good Samaritan Law typically does not apply to medical personnel at hospitals and probably this kind of facility too.

:ugh:

It varies. Keep googlng.
 
To perform CPR or not? Woman's death raises questions - CNN.com
(CNN) -- Despite a 911 operator's urgent pleas, a staffer with CPR training at an elderly living facility refused to perform the procedure on a resident who had stopped breathing.

The reason for the refusal? Glenwood Gardens in Bakersfield, California, has a policy against its employees providing medical care.

Lorraine Bayless, 87, died.

Shocking? Does this all sound just plain wrong?

Well, medical professionals, lawyers and those who work in the world of elderly independent living say it's much more complicated. While all states have so-called Good Samaritan laws aimed at protecting people against legal liability if they jump in to perform CPR on someone who needs it, few people know about the laws.

And Good Samaritan laws have been fiercely challenged in courts across the country, leaving the average person unclear about just how protected they may be.

"In America where there's a lawyer behind every defibrillator, there's worry that some people have 'Am I going to get sued?'" said Arthur Caplan, a medical ethicist at New York University.

Last week, shortly after Bayless' death, the family said they were satisfied with the care she received, according to KGET.

"I never said I was fine with that," daughter Pamela Bayless told CNN Monday before hanging up the phone. "That was completely taken out of context, and I have no further comment."

From a "medical ethics point of view, I think if you call 911, and 911 says, 'start CPR,' you have to do it," Caplan said. "You are under an obligation to do it. You've started that process and you must follow through.

"The policy on paper may make sense," he said, "but policy be damned when someone's life is at stake."

The 911 call

When Bayless collapsed in a dining room last Tuesday morning, someone at Glenwood Gardens called 911, and Bakersfield Fire Dispatcher Tracey Halvorson answered.

A Glenwood Gardens employee gave the phone to a nurse who identified herself as Colleen.

During the call, Halvorson tried to reason with Colleen to start CPR, and when she said her boss won't allow that, the dispatcher asked her to hand the phone to someone nearby, or anyone the nurse could flag down who was not beholden to the facility's policy.

"I understand if your boss is telling you you can't do it," the dispatcher said. "But ... as a human being ... you know ... is there anybody that's willing to help this lady and not let her die?"

"Not at this time," Colleen answered.

In the last three minutes of the call, Halvorson said, "OK. I don't understand why you're not willing to help this patient."

Colleen: "I am but, I'm just saying that ..."

Dispatcher: "OK, I'll walk you through it all. We, EMS take the liability for this, Colleen. I'm happy to help you. This is EMS protocol."

Colleen is then heard asking someone nearby to call a supervisor.

"Can you get (unintelligible) ... right away," Colleen said. "I don't know where he is. But she's yelling at me and saying we have to have one of our other residents perform CPR. I'm feeling stressed and I'm not going to do that, make that call."

The nurse asked the dispatcher when the fire department would arrive.

"They're coming as quick ... they've been on the way all this time. But we can't wait. This lady is going to die," the dispatcher answers.

Colleen replies, "Yeah."

Glenwood Gardens' corporate owner is Brookdale Senior Living, Inc., based in Tennessee.

CNN asked spokesman Matt Fontana why a nurse would be involved if the facility's policy prohibits staffers from performing medical care.

"(Colleen) was hired to be the Resident Services Director and that is the capacity in which she was serving," Fontana explained in an e-mail.

"Glenwood Gardens is an independent living facility which, by law, is not licensed to provide medical care to any of its residents," Fontana told CNN.

"We are conducting an internal review to determine all of the facts about what occurred while waiting for the paramedics, who arrived moments later," he wrote. "We have communicated our deepest sympathies and condolences to this resident's family on the passing of their loved one."

'Ethical north star'

"How could someone who is trained as a medical professional have their views so inverted by a corporate policy?" said Dr. Joseph Fins, chief of the division of medical ethics at Weill Cornell Medical College. "If this had happened on a city street in Manhattan, one would be governed by common morality."

The nurse at Glenwood is "confused about where their ethical north star is," he said.

Fins and other experts pointed to Good Samaritan laws that seek to protect well-intentioned helpers who try to save someone in danger.

But there have been challenges to California's Good Samaritan law.

In 2009, the state Supreme Court ruled on a case involving a woman who tried to pull a motorist from a wrecked car. The woman was accused of yanking the motorist like a "rag doll" and worsening the motorist's injuries. The court found that the woman was not covered under the state's Good Samaritan law, which had been in place since 1980.

The law provides that "no person who in good faith, and not for compensation, renders emergency care at the scene of an emergency shall be liable for any civil damages resulting from any act or omission."

And according to Caplan, Vermont's Good Samaritan law fines a person $100 if it's clear that they could have stepped in to perform CPR but refused.

The Bakersfield Police Department told CNN that they're investigating what happened at Glenwood Gardens.

Dr. Graham Nichol, a professor of medicine at the University of Washington, said he was shocked by what happened there.

CPR doubles survival odds, he said.

"If liability was a concern," Nichol said. "I would suspect there is a greater liability if someone dies."
 
please contact me

jolie, loveblue and any other fantastic members please contact me. i am hearing but slowly losing my hearing and i was wondering if you could introduce me into deaf culture and so forth.
ps. i am taking asl classes soon.
:wave:
 
OK, let's think about this. Sure death or broken ribs, which do I want? :hmm:

In an auto accident, TCS got a cracked sternum and three broken ribs. He survived. He says that if he needed CPR to live, and risked broken ribs, so be it. It would be worth it to live.

I would think broken bones would be a small price to pay for maintaining life.

I agree. I would not have followed protocol.
 
Family: Woman denied CPR wanted no intervention

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) — Relatives of an 87-year-old woman who died after a nurse at her retirement home refused a 911 dispatcher's pleas to perform CPR expressed satisfaction with the care she received, saying her wishes were to die naturally. Meanwhile, the company that owns the facility now says its worker failed to follow proper procedures.

Lorraine Bayless' death last week at Glendale Gardens, a Bakersfield independent living facility, prompted outrage after a 7-minute recording of the 911 call was released. Brookdale Senior Living, which owns the facility, initially said its employee acted correctly by waiting until emergency personnel arrived. But late Tuesday, it issued a new statement saying the employee had misinterpreted the company's guidelines and was on voluntary leave while the case is investigated.

"This incident resulted from a complete misunderstanding of our practice with regards to emergency medical care for our residents," the Tennessee-based company said.

Shortly before Brookdale's clarification, Bayless' family sent The Associated Press a statement saying she was aware that Glenwood Gardens did not offer trained medical staff, but opted to live there anyway.

['They're gonna let her die': Transcript of 911 call released]

"It was our beloved mother and grandmother's wish to die naturally and without any kind of life prolonging intervention," the family said. "We understand that the 911 tape of this event has caused concern, but our family knows that mom had full knowledge of the limitations of Glenwood Gardens and is at peace."

The family said it would not sue or try to profit from the death, and called it "a lesson we can all learn from."

The family said it would not sue or try to profit from the death, and called it "a lesson we can all learn from."

"We regret that this private and most personal time has been escalated by the media," the statement said.

Bayless collapsed in the Glenwood Gardens dining hall on Feb. 26. Someone called 911 on a cellphone and asked for an ambulance. Later, a woman who identified herself as a nurse got on the line and told dispatcher Tracey Halvorson she was not permitted to do CPR on the woman.

Halvorson implored the nurse to find someone else and said she would instruct them on how to do the procedure.

"I understand if your facility is not willing to do that," Halvorson said. "Give the phone to a passer-by. This woman is not breathing enough. She is going to die if we don't get this started, do you understand?"

By the time paramedics arrived, Bayless had stopped breathing.

Bakersfield fire officials who responded said Bayless did not have a "do not resuscitate" order on file at the home. The family and the company have not commented.

Glenwood Gardens is an independent living facility and as such Brookdale has said that by law it is "not licensed to provide medical care to any of its residents." But it added later that it was reviewing company policies "involving emergency medical care across all of our communities."

The woman who identified herself as a nurse was employed at the facility as a resident services director, the company said.

Bayless' death has prompted multiple investigations.

Bakersfield police are trying to determine whether a crime was committed when the nurse refused to help even find someone to perform CPR. The Kern County Aging and Adult Services Department is looking into possible elder abuse and the state Assembly's Aging and Long-term Care Committee is investigating to see whether legislation is needed.

The nation's largest trade group for senior living facilities has called for its members to review policies.

"It was a complete tragedy," said Maribeth Bersani, senior vice president of the Assisted Living Federation of America. "Our members are now looking at their policies to make sure they are clear. Whether they have one to initiate (CPR) or not, they should be responsive to what the 911 person tells them to do."

The California Board of Registered Nursing is concerned that the woman who spoke to the 911 dispatcher did not even respond to requests to find someone who might want to help.

"If she's not engaged in the practice of nursing, there's no obligation (to help)," agency spokesman Russ Heimerich said. "What complicates this further is the idea that she wouldn't hand the phone over either. So that's why we want to look into it."

Family: Woman denied CPR wanted no intervention - Yahoo! News
 
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