Dude...

StSapphire said:
Haha, I'm not hoarding it. Hell, at least one other poster right here on AllDeaf has already dramatically affected my life, however unintentionally it may have been.

Admittedly, you or jillio are a lot less likely to change my mind, but that's because we tend to agree on a majority of topics discussed here already. :P
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I never set out to change anyone's mind. I already recognize that I, nor does any other human being, have that power.:cool2:
 
shel90 said:
I will have to read this thread from the start to the last post but right now, I am too distracted with softball on TV. It looks like an interesting debate here.
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Not all the usual planet alignments here.
 
shel90 said:
I will have to read this thread from the start to the last post but right now, I am too distracted with softball on TV. It looks like an interesting debate here.
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I am anxiously awaiting your input.:wave:
 
jillio said:
Exactly. Providing information is not changing another's mind.:wave:
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Do we expect different situations? If I provide new information and someone else's opinion changes as an influence of that new information (or new perspective or whatnot) they've received, and I say "I changed her mind" and you say "She changed her own mind, you had nothing to do with it", do we expect to see something different?

If not, then this is just a silly argument over definitions, like "Does a tree falling in a forest make a sound when nobody is there to hear it?"

Taboo "sound" and replace it with either "auditory experiences" or "pressure waves in the air" and realize that there's no difference in expectations, and you've explained away the entire debate.

If we don't disagree except upon the definition of the phrase used, then I don't care which is used and you can feel free to replace any instance of "I can try to change your mind" with "I can try to provide information to you in the purpose of aiding you to change your own opinions" if you'd like. I don't care. :P
 
StSapphire said:
Do we expect different situations? If I provide new information and someone else's opinion changes as an influence of that new information (or new perspective or whatnot) they've received, and I say "I changed her mind" and you say "She changed her own mind, you had nothing to do with it", do we expect to see something different?

If not, then this is just a silly argument over definitions, like "Does a tree falling in a forest make a sound when nobody is there to hear it?"

Taboo "sound" and replace it with either "auditory experiences" or "pressure waves in the air" and realize that there's no difference in expectations, and you've explained away the entire debate.

If we don't disagree except upon the definition of the phrase used, then I don't care which is used and you can feel free to replace any instance of "I can try to change your mind" with "I can try to provide information to you in the purpose of aiding you to change your own opinions" if you'd like. I don't care. :P
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All you did was supply that information. You did not change their mind. The person themself considered the information, synthesized it, and applied it. They then used it to change their own perspective.

I supply information to clients on a daily basis. I have never yet changed their mind for them, nor would I ever attempt to. I believe in autonomy and I don't practice external control.
 
jillio said:
You are greatly overestimating your own power. The individual could have just as easily obtained the information from another source, or just as easily not been impacted by the information at all.

No, it is not a matter of semantics in this case. You change no one's mind but your own.
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But as the case may be, they didn't, and they were. Because, y'know, they told me as much. (And this entire discussion is even ignoring the fact that our brains are fully physical entities that act entirely according to the laws of physics, and thus any information you provide to another brain inherently must affect it because that's how brains work.

shel90 said:
I will have to read this thread from the start to the last post but right now, I am too distracted with softball on TV. It looks like an interesting debate here.
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I'll be sure to stop back in tomorrow morning, because I'm enjoying it, but I've also got to wake up for work at 6 AM tomorrow.

jillio said:
I never set out to change anyone's mind. I already recognize that I, nor does any other human being, have that power.:cool2:
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What is your goal in participating in debates such as this, then? Mere enjoyment in sharing your opinion? You have no hopes, desires or intentions when sharing that opinion?

jillio said:
I am anxiously awaiting your input.:wave:
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Me too!
 
There is a huge difference between educating and then allowing another to form their own opinion, and seeking to control what they think.
 
StSapphire said:
What is your goal in participating in debates such as this, then? Mere enjoyment in sharing your opinion? You have no hopes, desires or intentions when sharing that opinion?
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What is anyone's goal when entering these debates? My goal is just to make a bit of noise and read the results. My opinion is not right or wrong, and it certainly won't change anyone's mind. But it is all mine.
 
jillio said:
All you did was supply that information. You did not change their mind. The person themself considered the information, synthesized it, and applied it. They then used it to change their own perspective.

I supply information to clients on a daily basis. I have never yet changed their mind for them, nor would I ever attempt to. I believe in autonomy and I don't practice external control.
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Like I said, that part's a silly and pointless debate. I don't care what you call it. I obviously think my opinion, based on the multitude of information I have available to me, is correct. I also want those I communicate with to have opinions that are correct, because I value the truth.

If someone believes that 2+2 = 3, attempting to correct them by pointing out how, no, 2+2 is actually 4 isn't an "attempt to practice external control".
 
StSapphire said:
Like I said, that part's a silly and pointless debate. I don't care what you call it. I obviously think my opinion, based on the multitude of information I have available to me, is correct. I also want those I communicate with to have opinions that are correct, because I value the truth.

If someone believes that 2+2 = 3, attempting to correct them by pointing out how, no, 2+2 is actually 4 isn't an "attempt to practice external control".
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And that is where we disagree. It is a completely different perspective and assignment of power. You believe that you have power over individuals. I believe that I can only do that which allows those people to discover the power they have within themselves. Many of my clients have suffered from being in a relationship with someone who believed as you do; that they not only had that power over another, but that they were entitled to it.
 
jillio said:
There is a huge difference between educating and then allowing another to form their own opinion, and seeking to control what they think.
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Really? That's what you got out of this entire debate? That I want to reach my hands into your skull and dictate your thoughts via my brain-controlling debate-waves?

saywhatkid said:
What is anyone's goal when entering these debates? My goal is just to make a bit of noise and read the results. My opinion is not right or wrong, and it certainly won't change anyone's mind. But it is all mine.
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I hope to garner all information that others use to formulate their opinions, and equally share my own information, in the hopes that everyone involved can arrive with their opinions to the actual truth.
 
StSapphire said:
Really? That's what you got out of this entire debate? That I want to reach my hands into your skull and dictate your thoughts via my brain-controlling debate-waves?



I hope to garner all information that others use to formulate their opinions, and equally share my own information, in the hopes that everyone involved can arrive with their opinions to the actual truth.
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If you believe you have the power to change anyone's mind, no matter how you choose to describe it, that is exactly the premise you are operating from.
 
StSapphire said:
Like I said, that part's a silly and pointless debate. I don't care what you call it. I obviously think my opinion, based on the multitude of information I have available to me, is correct. I also want those I communicate with to have opinions that are correct, because I value the truth.

If someone believes that 2+2 = 3, attempting to correct them by pointing out how, no, 2+2 is actually 4 isn't an "attempt to practice external control".
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I dunno. I am thinking of the little boy who dropped a penny into an empty lamp socket and the whole city experienced a blackout. Should we let him believe that his opinion is the correct one, that he caused it, or do we practice external control?
 
Beowulf said:
I dunno. I am thinking of the little boy who dropped a penny into an empty lamp socket and the whole city experienced a blackout. Should we let him believe that his opinion is the correct one, that he caused it, or do we practice external control?
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And in some situations, external control is appropriate.
 
StSapphire said:
I hope to garner all information that others use to formulate their opinions, and equally share my own information, in the hopes that everyone involved can arrive with their opinions to the actual truth.
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Well, that is a math formula test only for Daredevel; gathering opinions = arrival at truth. :giggle:
 
jillio said:
If you believe you have the power to change anyone's mind, no matter how you choose to describe it, that is exactly the premise you are operating from.
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[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC4jZKSU8G4]Ooo-eee-ooooo! I'm Mentok, The Mindtaker![/ame]

(Seriously, though, I'm disagreeing with you so you're attributing a host of unpleasant otherwise negative attributes to me, because you're smart enough to be able to find signs indicating almost anything in what I say. Halo/pitchfork effect, much?)
 
TXgolfer said:
ah you changed behavior to mind.......otherwise it is a direct quote from the same book. Oh well.
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No, it wasn't. Not only do you have no idea what you are talking about, no one else does either. Really, this obsession you have is getting worrisome.
 
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