Do Jews believe in Jesus and still be Jewish?

[JohnnyE]

Hi Teresh, I have been watching this posting and this will help you understand much more better.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0014/0014_1.htm

 

[Teresh]

It not same worship to God! It not true. You missed it part history! I not accept what you say.....
KJV Bible say All Genesis read there.... And 5 Torah!

Ah, but there's only one God. If you're willing to claim that there are other gods, stop claiming to be a monotheist.

Eagle, you are doing wonderful job on your witnessing in our Thread/post about Jesus the Messiah. Jews need to know more about Jesus! Jews still believe in Jesus the Messiah and loves Jesus! AMEN!

Throwstones

I've only two questions for you... What are the words of the Sh'ma? And what do they mean?

How many interpreters have absolutely no hearing?

I imagine probably not very many. It's not my field, though, so I concede I really don't know. I'm just acknowledging that there is one hh man at NTID who interprets.

I am a student too. Last I checked, it hasn't disallowed me to get work.

There are academic reasons why I can't work at the moment that I would prefer not to post.

I ask you if you are a Jew by religion, you answer with the two biggest New Age Teachings to support your beliefs

Judaism is vague enough to have something for a wide variety of different people... The views of God espoused by Baruch Spinoza, Rambam, the Kabbalists, the Biblical Hebrews, the writers of the Talmud, Martin Buber, Mordecai Kaplan, etc. are all very different from one-another and yet they're all still Jewish ideas. In Judaism, an individual's personal theology is less important than whether or not he or she lives a Torah-observant life.

The many different ideas present can be represented a great many ways. The Talmud is filled with disagreements and debates on different aspects of Jewish law. Many midrashim by different scholars are contradictory with one another. For any particular Parshah you can easily find several wildly different interpretations on its meaning.

One thing you may have noticed is that when a Jew fixes a mezuzah to his or her doorposts the case is slanted inward. The reason is because the Rabbis could not agree on whether the mezuzah was supposed to be horizontal or vertical--So they compromised. Judaism is not homogenous on a particular theology or on a particular worldview. The only consensus on Judaism with respect to theology is that there is no consensus.

Reform Judaism (and even moreso, Reconstructionist Judaism) have chosen to integrate some foreign traditions into their practice to allow Judaism to continue to grow. Modernist Judaism does not aim to integrate foreign practice as it is so much as adapt the concepts to Judaism. Meditation, for example, is something that is a foreign practice brought into Judaism. Shaari T'filat ("Gates of Prayer") is still the Reform prayerbook until this fall. (It is being replaced by a new siddur, Mishkan T'filah.) It contains a number of meditations on God and other subjects that the Jew or a congregation may adopt if they want to.

You can, I suppose, contest Modernist Judaism, but I could just as easily cite Orthodox Rabbis who have the same views regarding the value of spirituality in Judaism.

Well, if your beliefs are truly Jewish, then I propose a wager. Since hell does not exist in your beliefs, this wager shouldn't be difficult to make.
I believe that the only way to heaven is through Christ. If I am right, you go to hell and I go to heaven.
You believe that everyone goes to heaven, if you are right, then I am going to heaven whether you like it or not.

Now, by this choice, you have a 50/50 chance of going to heaven with your beliefs, but a 100% chance of heaven with mine.

Pascal's Wager applies to belief or unbelief in a God rather than to a particular religion. This is important as there are several religions that claim that you're going to hell if you don't practice their religion.

Perhaps I should propose this wager to you: Let's say, for example, that the Muslims are right. Then, as neither of us are Muslims, we automatically receive whatever punishment exists in the afterlife. Christianity does the same thing. Which one is right? The two are mutually exclusive. Pascal's Wager cannot be applied to this context because you run into the inevitable problem that it's impossible to verify which religion is "right" by and logical or rational means.

It is, therefore, irrational to apply Pascal's Wager to that context as there are several religions that claim that their way is the only way. In Judaism, I have a 100% chance of receiving any afterlife benefits if I live a Torah-observant life. It's not a 50/50. Chance is not a factor in obtaining the afterlife. It's a matter of whether or not the person takes responsibility for themselves and acts in accordance with the Torah. If the individual does not do this, they have dug their own grave. I hold that I am responsible for my actions and that I am not expected but required to follow the rules. God has given me free will and the capability to do both good and evil. As good is what God wishes for me to do, that is the course I choose to take.

So then, I ask you, do you follow the Noachide Laws?

Your beliefs aren't any of those. Your beliefs are New Age.

My beliefs are what I say they are. You do not understand my beliefs (or Jewish beliefs, for that matter), thus, you cannot claim that I am something other than what I claim.

I would like you to suggest something more reliable and up to date than actual Jews.I have met 30 times live with different Jews. I have gotten 5 different opinions from each group (like you would expect). NONE of them had anything like what you believed. In that, you represent MAYBE 5% of the Jews I have met, that number amounts to one person, yourself.

It's not "more reliable and up to date than actual Jews" as the people writing the books I've read are themselves Jews. I know a number of Jewish people, I'm involved with the Jewish community on campus. Reading is not seperate from that, but it is not the only interaction with Judaism that I have had.

 

[Teresh]

Hi Teresh, I have been watching this posting and this will help you understand much more better.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0014/0014_1.htm

Wow, there's a lot of mistakes in that... But it's typical Christian rhetoric. My opinion has not changed as a result of reading that. All I know now is that there is yet another member of this forum who does not understand Judaism but wants to believe that he does.

 

[Reba]

...But you also don't think gay men or lesbians should be allowed to marry... Curious.

The Bible clearly establishes marriage as one man and one woman, right from the begining in Genesis. What's so "curious" about that?

It proves that you're sensitive to having your book compared to a modern work of fiction.

No, it just proves that you enjoy mocking Christians, their beliefs, and their Bible. It doesn't surprise me at all. I'm curious why you can't seem to stick to discussing points without resorting to mockery and insult.

I don't dismiss the faith of others. I just oppose telling people what to believe in rather than providing them with options and freedom to make up their own mind.

I've never told (as ordered) you what to believe in. It would be impossible. As you say, I provide you with the option of truth, and you have the freedom to accept or reject it.

It's too bad you never learned how to just say, "no, thank you" instead of coming back with snide insults.

 

[Teresh]

The Bible clearly establishes marriage as one man and one woman, right from the begining in Genesis. What's so "curious" about that?

The Bible establishes this where? Yes, in the creation story, the two participants are straight--what's your point?

No, it just proves that you enjoy mocking Christians, their beliefs, and their Bible. It doesn't surprise me at all. I'm curious why you can't seem to stick to discussing points without resorting to mockery and insult.

I'm not mocking you, only acknowledging that there is no rational means by which to claim that any particular religious text is true or. Text-based communication strips a lot from the way that I say things and while I acknowledge that it is a medium that, therefore, has its limitations, your interpretation of my words as being hateful or mocking comes from you, not from me.

I am not the hateful, cynical individual you probably imagine me to be.

I've never told (as ordered) you what to believe in. It would be impossible. As you say, I provide you with the option of truth, and you have the freedom to accept or reject it.

It's too bad you never learned how to just say, "no, thank you" instead of coming back with snide insults.

Ah, but your claim it is the truth is indeed the heart of the problem.

 

[JohnnyE]

Hi Teresh, Do you know about the Corrie Ten Boom story? Here is the link to the museum and her books and the DVD movie. I saw the DVD The hiding place and it is a very good movie. She is a woman of courage and is a God fearing woman who always tried to do the right thing in the sight of God.

http://corrietenboom.com/

 

[Teresh]

Hi Teresh, Do you know about the Corrie Ten Boom story? Here is the link to the museum and her books and the DVD movie. I saw the DVD The hiding place and it is a very good movie. She is a woman of courage and is a God fearing woman who always tried to do the right thing in the sight of God.

http://corrietenboom.com/

I am familiar, yes. What's your point? One does not need to be a Jew to be a good person. We've already established that.

 

[Reba]

Hi Teresh, Do you know about the Corrie Ten Boom story? Here is the link to the museum and her books and the DVD movie. I saw the DVD The hiding place and it is a very good movie. She is a woman of courage and is a God fearing woman who always tried to do the right thing in the sight of God.

http://corrietenboom.com/

I very much enjoyed reading her book. It was very touching. I saw her name listed at the Holocaust Museum in DC, when we visited a few years ago. She, and her family, were very good people.

 

[JohnnyE]

I am familiar, yes. What's your point? One does not need to be a Jew to be a good person. We've already established that.

Have you actually seen the movie " The hiding place " ? This is not about a person being good or bad. This is about salvation, either you are saved through grace or you are not saved.

 

[JohnnyE]

I very much enjoyed reading her book. It was very touching. I saw her name listed at the Holocaust Museum in DC, when we visited a few years ago. She, and her family, were very good people.

I think Corrie has a tree planted in her honor with a memorial in Israel. I am not sure somewhere in Israel. I saw that at the end of the movie " The hiding place "

 

[EagleCherokee63]

Hi Teresh, Do you know about the Corrie Ten Boom story? Here is the link to the museum and her books and the DVD movie. I saw the DVD The hiding place and it is a very good movie. She is a woman of courage and is a God fearing woman who always tried to do the right thing in the sight of God.

http://corrietenboom.com/

Thank you soo much for website! I have 2 books and one videotape with CC. I loved her true story!! It made me cried out! It attacked me what Corrie say to her sister " YOU MUST LOVE YOUR Stronger than hate! " Corrie was sooo very sweet SPIRITUAL!!! I think maybe last year or last 2 yrs she passed away. Thank her for wonderful testimony for gospel to world. Corrie had a rough bad experience through WW II camp prison.

 

[Teresh]

Have you actually seen the movie " The hiding place " ?

I have. It was a good film.

This is not about a person being good or bad. This is about salvation, either you are saved through grace or you are not.

I disagree. Are you suggesting that the Jews the Ten Booms saved are all in hell now?

 

[Reba]

...Ah, but your claim it is the truth is indeed the heart of the problem.

We still have freedom of religion and freedom of speech in USA, right?

No one is forcing you to believe what I believe or say, right?

No one stops you from expressing your viewpoint, right?

So, what's the problem?

 

[hottiedeafboi]

I always want to see that movie, bec I have been hearing so much about her and great example and truth of what God has done in her life and all the horrific experience she has gone thru. Also, love the latter part of her life when met one of the nazi soldier who killed her family and which later she approach him after bitterness against him for what he has done, when God revealed about the death on the cross which change her attitude which affect me also, forgiveness. But I love to watch that myself. Everytime mentioned about Corrie, I get tears, I never understand that. But all I know is her awesome testimony of her lofe shown the true Messiah-Jesus Christ.

 

[sculleywr]

I imagine probably not very many. It's not my field, though, so I concede I really don't know. I'm just acknowledging that there is one hh man at NTID who interprets.

The answer is none.

There are academic reasons why I can't work at the moment that I would prefer not to post.

Academic probationisn't a valid reason either. I am on it because I overloaded myself in the first semester, burnt out, and nearly failed.

Judaism is vague enough to have something for a wide variety of different people... The views of God espoused by Baruch Spinoza, Rambam, the Kabbalists, the Biblical Hebrews, the writers of the Talmud, Martin Buber, Mordecai Kaplan, etc. are all very different from one-another and yet they're all still Jewish ideas. In Judaism, an individual's personal theology is less important than whether or not he or she lives a Torah-observant life.

The many different ideas present can be represented a great many ways. The Talmud is filled with disagreements and debates on different aspects of Jewish law. Many midrashim by different scholars are contradictory with one another. For any particular Parshah you can easily find several wildly different interpretations on its meaning.

One thing you may have noticed is that when a Jew fixes a mezuzah to his or her doorposts the case is slanted inward. The reason is because the Rabbis could not agree on whether the mezuzah was supposed to be horizontal or vertical--So they compromised. Judaism is not homogenous on a particular theology or on a particular worldview. The only consensus on Judaism with respect to theology is that there is no consensus.

Reform Judaism (and even moreso, Reconstructionist Judaism) have chosen to integrate some foreign traditions into their practice to allow Judaism to continue to grow. Modernist Judaism does not aim to integrate foreign practice as it is so much as adapt the concepts to Judaism. Meditation, for example, is something that is a foreign practice brought into Judaism. Shaari T'filat ("Gates of Prayer") is still the Reform prayerbook until this fall. (It is being replaced by a new siddur, Mishkan T'filah.) It contains a number of meditations on God and other subjects that the Jew or a congregation may adopt if they want to.

You can, I suppose, contest Modernist Judaism, but I could just as easily cite Orthodox Rabbis who have the same views regarding the value of spirituality in Judaism.

Dude, there is only one group that has gotten it right. That would be the biblical Hebrews. Shoot, if you check out secular histories of the Jews, they mention the biblical Jews as being the main sect. Secular authorities don't even consider modern Judaism as true Judaism, neither do Christians or the other sects of Judaism. Just because the idea originated from a Jewish rabbi does not make it a JEwish belief. Take, for example, Christianity. Jesus was obviously a rabbi or teacher of sorts, since every time he comes to a town he ended up teaching in the local synagogue, as was tradition back then. Jesus was a JEw of the lineage of David, which is why his father Joseph went to Bethlehem for the census. So, by your logic, Christianity IS a sect of Judaism, since it came from a Jewish rabbi, and uses the Jewish scriptures with the addition of the New Testament. Shoot, yours doesn't even use the whole of the scriptures.

Pascal's Wager applies to belief or unbelief in a God rather than to a particular religion. This is important as there are several religions that claim that you're going to hell if you don't practice their religion.

Perhaps I should propose this wager to you: Let's say, for example, that the Muslims are right. Then, as neither of us are Muslims, we automatically receive whatever punishment exists in the afterlife. Christianity does the same thing. Which one is right? The two are mutually exclusive. Pascal's Wager cannot be applied to this context because you run into the inevitable problem that it's impossible to verify which religion is "right" by and logical or rational means.

It is, therefore, irrational to apply Pascal's Wager to that context as there are several religions that claim that their way is the only way. In Judaism, I have a 100% chance of receiving any afterlife benefits if I live a Torah-observant life. It's not a 50/50. Chance is not a factor in obtaining the afterlife. It's a matter of whether or not the person takes responsibility for themselves and acts in accordance with the Torah. If the individual does not do this, they have dug their own grave. I hold that I am responsible for my actions and that I am not expected but required to follow the rules. God has given me free will and the capability to do both good and evil. As good is what God wishes for me to do, that is the course I choose to take.

So then, I ask you, do you follow the Noachide Laws?

Pascal's wager was a response to Mithraism, not atheism. You claim that there is no hell and that everybody goes to heaven. Your quote: "I do not believe in hell." Well, there is an afterlife, and with no hell, everybody only has one place to go. BTW, this means that God is not fully holy, since heaven is paradise with God. If God is holy, then anything with any sin cannot come before Him. However, by your measure, everyone goes to heaven. Thus, God is not holy. Face it, I can tie your words into knots all day long and it still be the truth according to your beliefs.

My beliefs are what I say they are. You do not understand my beliefs (or Jewish beliefs, for that matter), thus, you cannot claim that I am something other than what I claim.

Your beliefs are patently New Age.

It's not "more reliable and up to date than actual Jews" as the people writing the books I've read are themselves Jews. I know a number of Jewish people, I'm involved with the Jewish community on campus. Reading is not seperate from that, but it is not the only interaction with Judaism that I have had.

So you base your beliefs only on Jews. I base my beliefs on Jews, secular authorities and Christian sources, with some sources from other beliefs as well. You do not know how long back the sources the writer's are using are. I have read many books that use stuff from the 1960s. They were incorrect according to the people living now in the Jewish culture. To make a comparison, would something that was true in deaf culture prior to ASL be true now?

 

[EagleCherokee63]

There's an interpreter at NTID who is hard of hearing... I'm not sure if he's a professional, though or if that's what he's being paid to do.



I'm hard of hearing.



I'm a student... Working is, at the moment, something that I'm not allowed to do as a consequence of that.



I have lots and lots of loans and every year the amount of debt I have due to my education continues to get higher and higher.



I would never deliberately lie to you. If I say something that isn't true, it is because I am mistaken, not because I'm actively working to promogulate misinformation. If I'm mistaken on something, I'm mistaken and that's that. If you ask a question of me, I will do all in my power to answer it as accurately as possible. I do not claim to be an expert in anything, though there are some fields I understand better than others. Art, for example, is not my strong point. I can appreciate art, but I have, through experimentation, determined that I am woefully inept at creating it. Judaism is a subject that I know a fair bit about based on my experiences and my reading. Computing is my field and while I am not an expert yet, I feel I know a lot more about the subject than most people.



Then you don't understand Jewish beliefs, as my beliefs do not conflict with Judaism.



No question asked there.



New Age is a movement, not a religion. There are New Age segments of every religion, including Christianity. It is a movement aimed at rejuvenating sprituality among those who are disenfranchised with the traditional means.

New Age does not have a codified set of beliefs because it's *not* a religion.



Well, then he's wrong from my perspective. Satan is not a deity nor worthy of worship because one is only to worship God.



There are Satanists in the world. That does not mean that all New Age people are Satanists nor that all Satanists are New Age.



Funny, but 40% of Israeli Jews identify as "secular" (the largest of any of the "branches" in Israel). In the US, the only other country with a large Jewish population, 38% are Reform and 2% are Reconstructionist which together parallel the "secular" movement in Israel. Being that 80% of the world's Jews live in either the US or Israel, it can be stated that, even if we're willing to assume that all of the rest of the World's Jews are not secular, at least 32% are.



Reading books might be a good idea too. I could suggest some if you'd like me to.

My brother is too hard of hearing. We used bully all the times. He is different opionion. I not appericated with my brother since he bossy and knew everything and argued with me in the Bible. He is same personality as your! I got it see clear now! I turned him off! but...... I love him because we are siblings! If he bossy or command to me and do follow him. I ingored him after that! He always do discrimaiation me and deaf people! I told my mom about it! My mom blow him out enough all the times!

 

[Teresh]

Academic probationisn't a valid reason either. I am on it because I overloaded myself in the first semester, burnt out, and nearly failed.

That isn't the reason either.

Secular authorities don't even consider modern Judaism as true Judaism, neither do Christians or the other sects of Judaism.

"Secular authorities"? Secular authorities in the west are typically Christians and generally already have an axe to grind with the Jews. Why don't you cite some educated Jewish sources that claim that Judaism is not Judaism? And... there are denominations of Judaism still being practiced besides Rabbinical Judaism and Karaite Judaism? Who (and where) are they?

Just because the idea originated from a Jewish rabbi does not make it a JEwish belief.

How audacious for you to claim that because a Jew adopts a different idea he is no longer a Jew. Sorry, but Judaism doesn't work like that. Christianity does. You're ignorant in this regard simply due to lack of contrast.

So, by your logic, Christianity IS a sect of Judaism, since it came from a Jewish rabbi, and uses the Jewish scriptures with the addition of the New Testament.

Christianity also rejects Jewish tradition, the Oral Torah and has historically subjugated and oppressed Jews. None of the great Jewish philosophers did any of those things.

Shoot, yours doesn't even use the whole of the scriptures.

Judaism uses all of the Jewish scriptures.

Pascal's wager was a response to Mithraism, not atheism. You claim that there is no hell and that everybody goes to heaven.

I did not claim there was a heaven. You erroneously assumed that I must believe that everyone goes to heaven if there is no hell. I disagree. I believe the wicked suffer a punishment in the afterlife while the righteous reap the benefits. As I believe in reincarnation, this disparity is represented through the concept of karma.

Your beliefs are patently New Age.

You're content in your ignorance. I'm not going to force you to educate yourself and become a more intelligent and knowledgable person. Should you ever decide to start learning about Judaism for what it is rather than the demon religion you want it to be to justify your hatred of the Jews, you know where to find me.

So you base your beliefs only on Jews.

I base my beliefs on logic and reason. Jewish books are not the only books that I read.

You do not know how long back the sources the writer's are using are. I have read many books that use stuff from the 1960s.

I avoid reading books that are more than 20 years old on ANY subject. That's just academic logic.

They were incorrect according to the people living now in the Jewish culture.

Funny... Which one of us is living in the Jewish culture right now? Oh, right.

 

[JohnnyE]

Hi Teresh,

Please watch the 37 mintunes video clip and there are subtitles. The video clip menu will pop up on its own. It has subtitles.

Click on Israel Video with founder Zev Isaacs then watch all of the various video clips then let me know what you think?

http://www.biblesforisrael.com/

 

[Reba]

...I avoid reading books that are more than 20 years old on ANY subject. That's just academic logic...

Too funny!

 

[Teresh]

Hi Teresh,

Please watch the 37 mintunes video clip and there are subtitles. The video clip menu will pop up on its own. It has subtitles.

Click on Israel Video with founder Zev Isaacs then watch all of the various video clips then let me know what you think?

http://www.biblesforisrael.com/

I don't use Windows. Still, it doesn't matter. Proselytizing to me isn't going to work. You're wasting your time because I've already evaluated Christianity and determined it's not for me.