Babies are born liars

[Reba]

2 July 2007
BABIES ARE BORN LIARS
Tots can con their parents, say docs
By Tim Stewart

BABIES learn to trick their parents from as young as six months, research has revealed.

Experts had previously thought children's brains were not developed enough for deception until they were around four years old.

But psychologist Vasudevi Reddy, of the University of Portsmouth, claims babies are not as innocent as they appear.

After studies of more than 50 youngsters and interviews with parents, she has identified a string of tricks used by kids between six months and three years old.

Fake crying is the most common tactic and the one devious babies learn first.

Dr Reddy said: "My study is a challenge to the idea deceiving parents begins at four years of age.

"It shows the deceptions start a lot more gradually and a lot earlier than that, from as young as six months.

"Fake crying is a simple deception. They realise it has certain consequences and start to use it tactically.

"They use it to get their parents' attention even when they are not in the distress their crying would suggest. You can tell because they will cry, then pause while they listen to see if their mother is responding before crying again."

Other tactics include fake laughing, pretending to be naughty and teasing parents through their actions.

Dr Reddy added: "Most tactics are playful rather than nasty misleading. A baby might go to hand something to their parent but then whip it back.

It is a lot of harmless fun and nothing for parents to worry about.

"But it goes to show that babies are a lot cleverer and more complex than people give them credit for."

By the time they are aged one, infants learn more difficult deceptions like concealing forbidden activities and trying to distract their parents, Dr Reddy concluded.

And by age two, toddlers' tactics are even more refined and they can bluff when threatened with punishment.

Dr Reddy said: "As they get more sophisticated, they say things like, 'I don't care' when threatened with punishment - when they clearly do. And by five or six, they learn white lies".

The Daily Record - NEWS - News Feed - BABIES ARE BORN LIARS

 

[shel90]

That is so CUTE and very informative at the same time. My son is doing these things and sometimes he gets what he wants..we try not to reinforce his sly behaviors. LOL!

 

[Sheila]

Psh, I could have told you THAT.

 

[SxyPorkie]

I would not call babies liars.... yes they are full of tricks.... my first two babies... i could not sleep during the night... they cried almost all night.... i tried to breastfeed them... made sure that their diapers were not wet,,, they would fall asleep laying in my tummy...i could not sleep.,. afraid that i would accidently roll down and hurt them...
one of my friends suggested me to keep them awake during the day and they would sleep all night... I tried that...NO LUCK..... they would rather sleep on my tummy... I suffered for 3-4 months.. finally they were able to sleep in the crib all night... WHEW.....

 

[VamPyroX]

I blame part of this on the fact that parents are more paranoid due to lawsuits and child abuse cases.

Today, it has gotten to a point where parents have to be extremely careful of what they do to their kids.

Back then, I could easily ignore my kids if they were crying because I know they're just looking for attention. Today, I know that if I ignore my kids... I could be arrested (or lose my kids) due to supposed negligence.

Back then, I could spank my kid for lying to me. Today, I spank my kid and I'm arrested for child abuse.

We're all paranoid about what could happen to us and these kids are taking advantage of it. When they do wrong and aren't punished for it, they keep it up. That's how attention often works. :roll:

 

[Handsome_Smiley]

Sorry, but I already knew that. My kids try that all the time. My son's fav is when he is tired and we ask if he is or tell him go to bed, he yells at us and say that his is awake. He also starts up the tear factory it is really funny, cause in 5 min of being in his bed, he is out like a light. My daughter would cry just to see her brother run into the room. She was only like 4 months old when she did that. Any parent who plays with their kids a lot could have told that doc that.

 

[katz4life]

I blame part of this on the fact that parents are more paranoid due to lawsuits and child abuse cases.

Today, it has gotten to a point where parents have to be extremely careful of what they do to their kids.

Back then, I could easily ignore my kids if they were crying because I know they're just looking for attention. Today, I know that if I ignore my kids... I could be arrested (or lose my kids) due to supposed negligence.

Back then, I could spank my kid for lying to me. Today, I spank my kid and I'm arrested for child abuse.

We're all paranoid about what could happen to us and these kids are taking advantage of it. When they do wrong and aren't punished for it, they keep it up. That's how attention often works. :roll:

Better not to have any damn kids, then there you go -- worry-free.

 

[shel90]

My son does something wrong, I flick his head, hand and put him in time out. It is working so far. Out in public, I put him in time out when he behaves badly.

 

[jillio]

My son does something wrong, I flick his head, hand and put him in time out. It is working so far. Out in public, I put him in time out when he behaves badly.

LOL! I wa a head flicker, too!

 

[GalaxyAngel]

*nodding* yeah big time, My first child is very con-clever boy! When He attempt say, Mommy, I'm hurting and fell down.. I gave him hugged later few hours again, He kept say it again same thing. I kept suspect my son kept playing game on me.. Until I spying on my son's activities! Finally I know the answer! He seek for "attention boy" (chuckles) Afterall, I have to stay firm w/my 1st son.

Rest other 2 young children weren't seek attention and sometimes tricky.
Pretty cute anyway....

Now they are grown turned into teenager and also I'm expecting last baby is on the way within few months away.
I lurv studies baby personalized. Pretty cool!

 

[jillio]

*nodding* yeah big time, My first child is very con-clever boy! When He attempt say, Mommy, I'm hurting and fell down.. I gave him hugged later few hours again, He kept say it again same thing. I kept suspect my son kept playing game on me.. Until I spying on my son's activities! Finally I know the answer! He seek for "attention boy" (chuckles) Afterall, I have to stay firm w/my 1st son.

Rest other 2 young children weren't seek attention and sometimes tricky.
Pretty cute anyway....

Now they are grown turned into teenager and also I'm expecting last baby is on the way within few months away.
I lurv studies baby personalized. Pretty cool!

Yeppers. They learn how to get what they want very early! They are amazing little creatures!

 

[EsthersCrown]

children born

2 July 2007
BABIES ARE BORN LIARS
Tots can con their parents, say docs
By Tim Stewart

BABIES learn to trick their parents from as young as six months, research has revealed.

Experts had previously thought children's brains were not developed enough for deception until they were around four years old.

But psychologist Vasudevi Reddy, of the University of Portsmouth, claims babies are not as innocent as they appear.

After studies of more than 50 youngsters and interviews with parents, she has identified a string of tricks used by kids between six months and three years old.

Fake crying is the most common tactic and the one devious babies learn first.

Dr Reddy said: "My study is a challenge to the idea deceiving parents begins at four years of age.

"It shows the deceptions start a lot more gradually and a lot earlier than that, from as young as six months.

"Fake crying is a simple deception. They realise it has certain consequences and start to use it tactically.

"They use it to get their parents' attention even when they are not in the distress their crying would suggest. You can tell because they will cry, then pause while they listen to see if their mother is responding before crying again."

Other tactics include fake laughing, pretending to be naughty and teasing parents through their actions.

Dr Reddy added: "Most tactics are playful rather than nasty misleading. A baby might go to hand something to their parent but then whip it back.

It is a lot of harmless fun and nothing for parents to worry about.

"But it goes to show that babies are a lot cleverer and more complex than people give them credit for."

By the time they are aged one, infants learn more difficult deceptions like concealing forbidden activities and trying to distract their parents, Dr Reddy concluded.

And by age two, toddlers' tactics are even more refined and they can bluff when threatened with punishment.

Dr Reddy said: "As they get more sophisticated, they say things like, 'I don't care' when threatened with punishment - when they clearly do. And by five or six, they learn white lies".

The Daily Record - NEWS - News Feed - BABIES ARE BORN LIARS

Children are born into rebellion, they learn how to manipulate from day 1. they need to be taught how to do this or that. they just need someone to be patient with them and on top of what they are trying to do. you can do that, just learn their behavior, and learn when to say know, and stand your ground, and continue to love them. they need a good example setter.
be patient with them. teach them right from wrong, and be consistent in your teachings.
EsthersCrown

 

[R2D2]

How can it be possible for babies to be "deceptive" when they do not develop theory of mind until around the age of 4? Deception implies that the babies are aware of how their parents think and try and manipulate that. Babies aren't even aware that parents are a separate entity to them.

I think with the crying/tantrums - they learn to cry because they learn that it produces a Pavlovian response. I'm hungry, I cry, I get fed. That is normal, learned human behaviour and as a matter of fact it's critical for healthy brain development. It's not bad unless it is allowed to get out of control. In some cases where babies are left to cry and cry with very little response, development can be held back. Babies in Romanian orphanages are extreme examples of this happening.

 

[jillio]

How can it be possible for babies to be "deceptive" when they do not develop theory of mind until around the age of 4? Deception implies that the babies are aware of how their parents think and try and manipulate that. Babies aren't even aware that parents are a separate entity to them.

I think with the crying/tantrums - they learn to cry because they learn that it produces a Pavlovian response. I'm hungry, I cry, I get fed. That is normal, learned human behaviour and as a matter of fact it's critical for healthy brain development. It's not bad unless it is allowed to get out of control. In some cases where babies are left to cry and cry with very little response, development can be held back. Babies in Romanian orphanages are extreme examples of this happening.

Gonna have to agree with you there, R2D2. They have no concept of honesty or dishonesty until they develop theory of mind. They learn quite early that if they cry, they will get a response, or if they smile, they will get a response. But it is only an attempt to elicit that response which will address their needs at that given time. And its true that babies whose needs are not responded to suffer from attachment disorder. They simply never learn to interact with either others or their environment.

 

[CorasMama]

Gonna have to agree with you there, R2D2. They have no concept of honesty or dishonesty until they develop theory of mind. They learn quite early that if they cry, they will get a response, or if they smile, they will get a response. But it is only an attempt to elicit that response which will address their needs at that given time. And its true that babies whose needs are not responded to suffer from attachment disorder. They simply never learn to interact with either others or their environment.

Yeah. That.

Seriously, just because a baby isn't in physical distress, eg. pain, hunger, wet, doesn't mean they don't have a need that must be met. There are emotional/psychological/spiritual needs, too, like being picked up, held, played with. Trying to get these needs met by communicating in the only way they can is NOT manipulation or deception. They have (hopefully, if they have good parents) learned that if they cry, the parent(s) will attend to them.

And sometimes babies continue to cry even when held. They may be frustrated about something, still scared about that big dog they saw yesterday, or they don't like the color of the shirt they're wearing. It doesn't mean they shouldn't still be held.

We all know how frustrating it is to not be able to communicate with someone. Now imagine that the person you can't communicate with is the one who competely controls what/when/if you eat, play, sit, lay down, do anything. So they get frustrated. I don't blame them.

BABIES AREN'T DECEPTIVE, or MANIPULATIVE. Period.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

How can it be possible for babies to be "deceptive" when they do not develop theory of mind until around the age of 4? Deception implies that the babies are aware of how their parents think and try and manipulate that. Babies aren't even aware that parents are a separate entity to them.

I think with the crying/tantrums - they learn to cry because they learn that it produces a Pavlovian response. I'm hungry, I cry, I get fed. That is normal, learned human behaviour and as a matter of fact it's critical for healthy brain development. It's not bad unless it is allowed to get out of control. In some cases where babies are left to cry and cry with very little response, development can be held back. Babies in Romanian orphanages are extreme examples of this happening.

Yes I second that...

I respectfully disagree with Reba's link.

The babies have no roots in love, pleasure, etc. They only cried if they are hungry, thirsty, lonely, frightened, bored, pain, etc... they express their feeling which is normal and healthy.

We would tell it's something wrong with babies if they show no sign of their feeling expression.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Children are born into rebellion, they learn how to manipulate from day 1. they need to be taught how to do this or that. they just need someone to be patient with them and on top of what they are trying to do. you can do that, just learn their behavior, and learn when to say know, and stand your ground, and continue to love them. they need a good example setter.
be patient with them. teach them right from wrong, and be consistent in your teachings.
EsthersCrown

No, babies are not born into rebellion but they are being expose by good or bad enivornment that's how they learn from... It's parent's job to show their children into good path.

 

[SpiceHD]

wow very interesting info here. now that i ll keep in mind when my baby arrives but how do u know if its real or not?

 

[Chase]

To make a didactic, all-inclusive statement about new studies and anecdotal evidence of parents just because they go against some current text may be a mistake.

After all, theory or philosophy of mind is just that – popular theory and a set of philosophies.

Over the years, I’ve seen theories accepted as fact topple like dominoes, and philosopies change like diapers, particularly those in child development.

I think it’s quite natural for infants to manipulate and don’t look on it as a bad or negative thing. Perhaps the term "liar" is offensive to some protective parents, and should not have been used. But at one time another popular saying was “children don’t lie,” when mounting evidence and even common sense shows they can and do for a great variety of reasons, and at the very minimum can be coached into false memories.

This is just a study indicating some infants may have the ability to give false impressions earlier than the four years mark. I’ll bet other studies will follow and would like to keep an open mind on an interesting subject.

 

[jillio]

To make a didactic, all-inclusive statement about new studies and anecdotal evidence of parents just because they go against some current text may be a mistake.

After all, theory or philosophy of mind is just that – popular theory and a set of philosophies.
Over the years, I’ve seen theories accepted as fact topple like dominoes, and philosopies change like diapers, particularly those in child development.

I think it’s quite natural for infants to manipulate and don’t look on it as a bad or negative thing. Perhaps the term "liar" is offensive to some protective parents, and should not have been used. But at one time another popular saying was “children don’t lie,” when mounting evidence and even common sense shows they can and do for a great variety of reasons, and at the very minimum can be coached into false memories.

This is just a study indicating some infants may have the ability to give false impressions earlier than the four years mark. I’ll bet other studies will follow and would like to keep an open mind on an interesting subject.

The four years mark for developing theory of mind is an mean that has variations....just like a mean for walking, for talking, or for any of the developmental concepts.

And the theory of a child's development of theory of mind is a much researched and tested theory, and is generally very well accepted by developmental psychologists. Additionally, it is not only supported through formal research, but through anecdotal evidence over an extended period of time. It is one of the most valid of all the developmental theories.