ASL, But Not Really...

[Keys]

A longtime friend of mine has a sister who recently became HOH. Her sister has been taking ASL classes non-stop since she found out she'd probably be deaf within several years, which I think is great! But my friend hasn't taken a single one. I don't think this is the absolute end of the world, except for the fact that my friend still tries to sign - improperly. She's even said to me, "Yeah, I don't know the correct grammar or whatever. I don't really care."

She doesn't even sign to her sister. What I see her using ASL for is as if it were, like, some sort of "super cool secret code" where she can talk about things with few people who know some basic signs, without everyone around her knowing what she's saying.

Is it just me, or is this super insulting?

 

[A]

yeah it is insulting for your friend to treat ASL that way, even even to treat his sister that way. ASL is a Language, not a last resort of communication treatment for the deaf (Why can it get the same respect for French). His sister is scared. Scared of her communication being cut off so she is taking action and she really need your friend's support. You may think it is not the end of the world and you're right it isn't but just because she is taking ASL doesn't mean she thinks so. She may be taking it because she want to keep on socializing with ease.Which is why she really need your friend's support.

 

[Smithtr]

Interesting i understand seems really.wow I believe you reading reason, It is reason. sign language teach you ASL. Don't worry grammar. wow I believe you it

 

[A]

I should have mentioned that your friend is probably going through alot herself as well (I'm alittle surprised no one brought it up yet). She known her sister all her life as a hearing person.. it's hard for some people to accept that their loved one is going to be a different person. A huge adjustment for her. It take time to get used to the changes.

 

[jillio]

I should have mentioned that your friend is probably going through alot herself as well (I'm alittle surprised no one brought it up yet). She known her sister all her life as a hearing person.. it's hard for some people to accept that their loved one is going to be a different person. A huge adjustment for her. It take time to get used to the changes.

Very insightful, A.

 

[Bottesini]

A longtime friend of mine has a sister who recently became HOH. Her sister has been taking ASL classes non-stop since she found out she'd probably be deaf within several years, which I think is great! But my friend hasn't taken a single one. I don't think this is the absolute end of the world, except for the fact that my friend still tries to sign - improperly. She's even said to me, "Yeah, I don't know the correct grammar or whatever. I don't really care."

She doesn't even sign to her sister. What I see her using ASL for is as if it were, like, some sort of "super cool secret code" where she can talk about things with few people who know some basic signs, without everyone around her knowing what she's saying.

Is it just me, or is this super insulting?

Interesting i understand seems really.wow I believe you reading reason, It is reason. sign language teach you ASL. Don't worry grammar. wow I believe you it

What Travis says "Don't worry grammar" has merit. At least the sister is using sign language.

She can expand on it later.

 

[A]

Very insightful, A.

Thanks, I realized this after thinking about my aunt who I am very close. She had a car accident and it did alot of brain damage. It took her a year of therapy to get right arm back and for her to walk again. She is a different person now and yet the same. She is not like what she used to be but I got to know her all over again.

 

[jillio]

Thanks, I realized this after thinking about my aunt who I am very close. She had a car accident and it did alot of brain damage. It took her a year of therapy to get right arm back and for her to walk again. She is a different person now and yet the same. She is not like what she used to be but I got to know her all over again.

Experience is a wonderful teacher.

 

[Anij]

I think this person may having some trouble accepting that someone they are close to is going through a major change - emotionally, physically, linguistically and most likely socially as well. Everyone deals with these type of changes differently.

Although I've been profoundly deaf on my right side since birth and have had mild (now mild/mod flux) loss on my left side since mid childhood - my family lived in total denial for decades... figuring that not only was I wrong about "needing" to learn ASL (I asked) - they certainly didn't need it. Period.

Fast forward to my early adult years - when I was finally "Free" to take ASL classes, make friends who where Hoh, Deaf or hearing ASLers and got my first hearing Aid for my "Hoh side" (left mild/mod flux). I sat down with my family and said that regardless of what THEY "wanted" - I WAS losing more of my hearing and ASL was becoming more and more of an important means of communication for me.

I took a LONG time to explain and show what my hearing loss was like, both on paper (audiogram with my HL as well as hearing ranges for various things like a phone, doorbell, plane, lawnmower etc) and by having them listen to the varies mp3 (audio) HL simulators available online etc.

Most importantly though - I told them that I loved them, I wanted to be able to be involved in their lives, be able to talk with them about things, and that I respected and understood that for them (all hearing) trying to understand my life and needs as someone who's Hoh/Deaf was very difficult. I promised to remember to be patient with them while they continued to learn about hearing loss - and in return that they would respect that for me communicating orally was becoming increasingly challenging - they HAD to look at me when they talked, they HAD to be in the same room, they HAD to speak clearly etc ...and if they wanted us to be a family - at some point they would have to learn at least a little bit of ASL.

My father - who generally isn't "into" this stuff at all - as a good-faith gesture he took ASL 101 6months later, and while he's never USED it with me ..he's promised then when I do need to switch to ASL more he'll take the classes and do whatever he has to, to make sure we can still communicate

My mum - Felt sooo bad that she'd accussed me of "lying" about my amount of hearing loss all those years (only to find out that she'd misunderstood and then refused change her mind about it) that she end up taking ASL 110-301. Unfortunately she got quite ill and stopped signing most of the time...also she takes medication that causes some memory problems so now she doesn't remember much. Of course, she's also said that when I "need it" she'll re-learn.

My sister - has been the only one who has been unwilling to learn - as of yet. When the big "sit down meeting" about my hearing happened, she'd just started university and taken on a part time job ... making he schedule too busy to learn (which I understood). When she graduated, she took on a full time position ( very stressful the first few years) then her and her DH decided to have a baby ... so now she'd very busy doing that. On the up side she is in favour of my teaching my baby niece ASL - and she's also promised when I "need it" - she'll take the time to learn ASL (as will her DH)


The point of my post is to explain that it's often very hard for hearing family members (and close friends) to accept that a family member may have (or will have) hearing loss that requires a major change in communication. They may think the Hoh person is exaggerating the amount of hearing loss, or how quickly the HL is changing, they may be afraid that they won't be able to learn ASL (or they'll look "stupid").

Often - if they are able to find a friend or family member who will go to classes,practice ans attend various Deaf events with them - it makes a HUGE difference, because they no longer feel so alone.

If it's possible - can you volunteer to attend classes etc with this person ? or see if having someone else come along might make a difference?

If they're a "book person" perhaps some books on ASL, Deaf culture etc might help (picked by some people who are Deaf themselves and use ASL)

If they're an observer - perhaps finding some Hearing loss and Deaf education classes or speakers who explain what it's like, and the importance of having family and friends who are willing to learn ways to communicate including ASL etc may be helpful ?

It's often easy to judge people - thinking we'd react differently, and being frustrated when we see things being done "wrong" ...but everyone has to come to terms with the situation in their own way. Some people may be very easily accepting and jump right into classes, while others may have to work through issues, myths, misconceptions, and odd fears like "if she goes deaf, will she be less smart ?" "will others think she's stupid?" "if people see us together signing will they think we're stupid?" etc.

Be there, talk to them without being critical and ask if there are way's that you might be able to help THEM manage this transition more easily

It seems a common theme that I must become bilaterally profoundly deaf before my parents at least are able to accept that I "need" ASL ... even though I've explained time and time again that I've been much more comfortable using ASL - and would prefer to use it as much as possible, since that night as a young adult when I came home that first night of my first ASL 101 class

 

[ShariB]

Is not wanting to learn ASL insulting? It is if you feel it is. It's not insulting to me. The person has to go through his/her own process with this stuff.

I started with a cross of SEE/ASL. I lived and still live in a hearing world, so that fit me just fine. I had deaf friends and we all managed to communicate without ASL.
20+ years later, I'm learning ASL and the grammatical structure is really tough.

 

[jillio]

Is not wanting to learn ASL insulting? It is if you feel it is. It's not insulting to me. The person has to go through his/her own process with this stuff.

I started with a cross of SEE/ASL. I lived and still live in a hearing world, so that fit me just fine. I had deaf friends and we all managed to communicate without ASL.
20+ years later, I'm learning ASL and the grammatical structure is really tough.

Well, that's really a question with several answers. For you, it worked out okay, evidently. But ASL syntax is based on the fact that the lanuage is visual and spatial, and therefore, the syntax is more accurate in communication the message. Many misunderstanding occur when one takes a visually/spatially based language and tries to make it adhere to a linear language such as spoken English. For the child who is deaf from birth, or shortly thereafter, he/she has already adapted by becoming more visual and kinesthetic in the way they process the information coming from their world. It is a natural adaptation process based on an innate need to understand. So, in that case, it is a benefit to the child to be exposed to the syntax that naturally builds on the way they process information. In this case, it would be more of a matter of whether your priority is to provide that child with language that makes the world easier for them to understand and develop, or whether your priority is doing what is easier for you, as the adult.

Then there is also the issue of the fact that ASL has been a functioning language serving an intended purpose for years. It is the language of the deaf. To assume that the hearing can change it to their purpose and make the syntax something confusing for a visually based communication is a bit presumptuous. The systems know and MCE's are just that. The hearing person's attempt to change ASL into something that more closely resembles the language of the hearing...spoken language. To the deaf, and to some hearing, yes, that is terribly insulting. Would you go to Russia and attempt to make their language more English? It is the same principle.

 

[Berry]

I have told this story often, and probably told it on this forum.

Some Mormon missionaries serving the Hmong community offered to teach Hmong to anyone willing to learn.

I am not Mormon but I love languages. If someone is willing to teach me a language I can use for free I'm going to come learn it. So I went. It was all very pleasant and friendly. They did not try to convert me and I did not try to change them.

Three weeks into the class one of the young elders explained how Hmong grammar handles tense. (In fact it is handled much like ASL. A single indicator is used and from then on everything is considered to have taken place in the past)

One of the women in the class spoke up, "Well that is NOT good English."

To which everyone replied, "Well, that is pretty much the point you see -- It is not English. It is Hmong."

She snorted: "You need to go over there and teach those people how to talk right. They obviously don't even know how to speak their own language."

Unfortunately the class broke up a few weeks after that.

 

[Smithtr]

What Travis says "Don't worry grammar" has merit. At least the sister is using sign language.

She can expand on it later.

Yes My 2 sister really sign language. also I hope be my nephew. I teach their I encourage to my family. my dad limit sign language. also My mom spelling sign language know me lots. I do it communication to write, I told my sister sign I LOVE YOU;ASL That is why.

 

[ShariB]

... But ASL syntax is based on the fact that the lanuage is visual and spatial, and therefore, the syntax is more accurate in communication the message. Many misunderstanding occur when one takes a visually/spatially based language and tries to make it adhere to a linear language such as spoken English. ...

Then there is also the issue of the fact that ASL has been a functioning language serving an intended purpose for years. It is the language of the deaf. To assume that the hearing can change it to their purpose and make the syntax something confusing for a visually based communication is a bit presumptuous. ... The hearing person's attempt to change ASL into something that more closely resembles the language of the hearing...spoken language. To the deaf, and to some hearing, yes, that is terribly insulting. Would you go to Russia and attempt to make their language more English? It is the same principle.

ASL is not the language of all deaf. I see that as being presumptuous. Who's changing it to their purpose? SEE is a separate language and based on English. It allows a deaf person to operate in a hearing and deaf world. It doesn't mean this is better and god knows this is a discussion that has caused major rifts at Gallaudet University. I also don't understand what this has to do with the simple remarks.

I also don't think the Russian analogy is accurate and is a stretch. You're talking very small scale about one person who is probably having an extremely difficult time dealing with her sister becoming deaf. I know what that's like because I'm going through it now and we're all dealing with the repercussions from it. It's not like her sister is trying to change the culture or the language.

I don't see in her simple potentially very scared remarks including a flippant, "... I don't care ..." that she's attempting to change anything. This does not appear to me to be a case of trying to make ASL even close to English. I do believe she still needs time to deal with it. I've known I was going to go deaf for about 20 years. NOW, I'm finally dealing with it and taking ASL seriously.

When I first started signing, I used it as a secret code ... It's cool stuff and that's not insulting and wasn't to my deaf friends. I used it walking down the halls at work and signing to myself, sometimes signing something to my husband in public, and (lol) sometimes cursing to myself on a bowling team only to discover a team member in the next alley was deaf and cracked up watching me curse... When I married, a friend from work and her husband (a teacher at the Freemont School for the Deaf in CA) taught me "The Wedding Song" in sign language. I signed to the music in memory of a friend who got me started signing.

 

[jillio]

ASL is not the language of all deaf. I see that as being presumptuous. Who's changing it to their purpose? SEE is a separate language and based on English. It allows a deaf person to operate in a hearing and deaf world. It doesn't mean this is better and god knows this is a discussion that has caused major rifts at Gallaudet University. I also don't understand what this has to do with the simple remarks.
ASL is the language of the deaf in that it was the deaf who began using it and formalized it. The syntax is based on that. While not all deaf people use ASL, that does not mean that the language, in and of itself, is not the language of the deaf. It is not being presumptuous at all. It is simply demonstrating a knowledge of the history and linguistic basics of ASL. SEE is not a separate language. SEE is English. Generally speaking, ASL affords more oportunity to operate in both hearing and deaf worlds. It allows for greater language development, greater comprehension, and those skills are transferred to English.
I also don't think the Russian analogy is accurate and is a stretch. You're talking very small scale about one person who is probably having an extremely difficult time dealing with her sister becoming deaf. I know what that's like because I'm going through it now and we're all dealing with the repercussions from it. It's not like her sister is trying to change the culture or the language. I don't think that the Russian analogy is a stretch at all. In fact, it is very on target. The manual forms of English are an attempt to take a natural language that functions very well for the purpose it is intended, and make it more closely resemble English.
I don't see in her simple potentially very scared remarks including a flippant, "... I don't care ..." that she's attempting to change anything. This does not appear to me to be a case of trying to make ASL even close to English. I do believe she still needs time to deal with it. I've known I was going to go deaf for about 20 years. NOW, I'm finally dealing with it and taking ASL seriously.

The fact that you are very English based is really quite obvious to me. You have misunderstood about 90% of my post. This isn't about a single person attempting to change a language. It is what has been done systematically to the language of ASL by hearing people.

When I first started signing, I used it as a secret code ... It's cool stuff and that's not insulting and wasn't to my deaf friends. I used it walking down the halls at work and signing to myself, sometimes signing something to my husband in public, and (lol) sometimes cursing to myself on a bowling team only to discover a team member in the next alley was deaf and cracked up watching me curse... When I married, a friend from work and her husband (a teacher at the Freemont School for the Deaf in CA) taught me "The Wedding Song" in sign language. I signed to the music in memory of a friend who got me started signing.

Evidently, you were somehow offended by my explanation re: your question. I am, quite frankly, clueless as to what actually offended you. I was merely giving the poster information based on knowledge of linguistics and the psychological processing of stimuli.The question did not have a simple cut and dried answer, and that is why I said it could be answered several ways.

 

[Bottesini]

Evidently, you were somehow offended by my explanation re: your question. I am, quite frankly, clueless as to what actually offended you. I was merely giving the poster information based on knowledge of linguistics and the psychological processing of stimuli.The question did not have a simple cut and dried answer, and that is why I said it could be answered several ways.

New people who want to make their reputation must make strong statements so people will know they are a force to be reckoned with!

( Glad to provide you with this small service in analysis. ) <---- Me

 

[jillio]

New people who want to make their reputation must make strong statements so people will know they are a force to be reckoned with!

( Glad to provide you with this small service in analysis. ) <---- Me

Thank you very much, Bott. I understand what that was all about much better now.

 

[Berry]

ASL is not the language of all deaf.

.

Actually you are right if you are taking the world view. Every country has its own visual language used by the local Deaf.

ASL is the accepted visual language in the U.S. just as English is the accepted spoken language. Most Americans don't worry about that fine a distinction and use ASL and visual language interchangeably.

Visual language is the natural language of D/deaf people.

It is erroneously believed that a strictly verbal language is the natural language of hearing people. But the truth is this is the natural language only of people who have no arms, hands, face, or bodies. Very difficult to find someone like that. Even Stephen Hawking is not a perfect example.

The truth is a truly natural human language would incorporate both verbal and visual components.

I see that as being presumptuous.

.

Anyone having any opinion about anything that is not backed by a university degree declaring them an expert in the specific subject they are voicing an opinion on is presumptuous.

However that never stopped me; I don't see why it should stop anyone else.

Who's changing it to their purpose?

.

The majority culture has always tended to suppress and oppress all minority cultures through sheer force of numbers and opinion. They often succeed. Partly because in times past it was believed the majority needed protection from the individual, and any cultures, subcultures, and/or minorities within the society.

It wasn't until John Locke and John Stuart Mill that society at large accepted the basic concepts that the rights of individuals, cultures, subcultures, and minorities, within a society should be protected.

It is almost instinct for someone who grew up to believe English grammar is the proper way to communicate to object to any form of communication that defies every rule they ever learned. Therefore it is instinctual for hearing English speakers to attempt to change ASL into something easier for them to understand.

Hope this helps, but if it does not, I still think it is worth saying.

 

[Juli-terp-to-be]

Actually you are right if you are taking the world view. Every country has its own visual language used by the local Deaf.

ASL is the accepted visual language in the U.S. just as English is the accepted spoken language. Most Americans don't worry about that fine a distinction and use ASL and visual language interchangeably.

Visual language is the natural language of D/deaf people.

It is erroneously believed that a strictly verbal language is the natural language of hearing people. But the truth is this is the natural language only of people who have no arms, hands, face, or bodies. Very difficult to find someone like that. Even Stephen Hawking is not a perfect example.

The truth is a truly natural human language would incorporate both verbal and visual components.



Anyone having any opinion about anything that is not backed by a university degree declaring them an expert in the specific subject they are voicing an opinion on is presumptuous.

However that never stopped me; I don't see why it should stop anyone else.





The majority culture has always tended to suppress and oppress all minority cultures through sheer force of numbers and opinion. They often succeed. Partly because in times past it was believed the majority needed protection from the individual, and any cultures, subcultures, and/or minorities within the society.

It wasn't until John Locke and John Stuart Mill that society at large accepted the basic concepts that the rights of individuals, cultures, subcultures, and minorities, within a society should be protected.

It is almost instinct for someone who grew up to believe English grammar is the proper way to communicate to object to any form of communication that defies every rule they ever learned. Therefore it is instinctual for hearing English speakers to attempt to change ASL into something easier for them to understand.

Hope this helps, but if it does not, I still think it is worth saying.

 

[JennyB]

Perhaps this is a bit off-topic, but I really am not able to understand people who say they sign SEE because it is easier. I never had that awkward signing in English grammar thing. I used to have an awkward fingerspelling-every-other-word-before-I-learned-classifers thing, but never a SEE thing.

SEE is impossible for me and requires so much thought it is ridiculous. English was meant for the mouth, not the hands.