Are oral dhh folks hypocrites?

As someone who grew up with only oral skills, I can totally see why and how someone might think that ASL only is the way to go. It is DAMN frustrating using oral skills and not being able to be understood by people. Yet at the same time, I think that speech is a great skill to have! I'm glad I can speak for myself. I definitly think that deaf and hoh kids should have access to BOTH ASL and speech while growing up. I am a hardcore proponet of bilingalism for dhh kids. I think right now the debate really is over which language should be a dhh kid's first language. Even many of the hardcore oral experts say that most raised oral/educated oral kids pick up ASL as a second language. However, I just don't see why there is such militancy among some oralists...... Like they look down on those of us who Sign b/c they think that oral skills will give them all the advantages of the hearing world?
Yeah, oral skills are great.....but they don't give you 100% access to the hearing world....and they aren't perfect for all sittuions (like noisy situtions, soft voices etc) .....just wish more oral-at-all-costs folks realized that....
and I mean a lot of the supiority seems to have to do with "ablism" and "seeming "healthy and normal" (eg I don't need sign.....I don't need a wheelchair/I don't need Braille/I don't need....fill inthe blank with disabilty aid here? so I'm better and more "normal" then someone who DOES need that stuff.....I really do think that a lot of the hardcore oralist types are people who just haven't accepted or come to terms with their disabilties.
 
I can see your point and do agree with you DD. However too many of these "oralists" are impossible to understand. My husband is hearing and he is very embarassed when oralists try to speak to him and are unintelligible.

Too many oralists have no control over their voices. They would be much better off in an ASL world where "dialects" and impediments do not matter.
 
I'm with you there too. I speak quite fluently, of course, I will have problems pronouncing complicated words. I do have a nasal voice which I know most dhh people do have. To have a "crystal clear" voice like a hearing person does is pretty hard unless they have an minimal hearing loss or are late deafened. I have always believed that dhh people should be exposed to two languages, speech and ASL. Some may say ASL inhibits the proper form of English but I have to disagree with that. Other say that English should be the first language but I explain that ASL does greatly benefits other whereas English doesn't. It's always a catch 22 situation which is why I believe in Bi-Bi. One cannot do without another, we can function with ASL and still maintain english comprehension. I've always believed that ASL does help with english comprehension & it is sad that naysayers have to shoot us down because they doubt our capabilities. The capacity to learn much more within ASL is always amazing when you see it with an open mind and heart.
 
I'm sorry if this is a baby question, but what is the way to teach ASL so that it is the most helpful for learning English and vice versa?

(Heck, in any household, how should introducing kids to two languages be handled so that the child truly winds up proficient in both?)
 
wtf?

in responce to the topic.....has it ever ocured to any one here,if the so called "oral" people talk and do not need terps when you talk to them,or in a small group...but may need them in large groups ...or classrooms...plays....ect.

i have my own motorcycle shop,and i deal with my customers by talking to them and reading lips(95% deaf), email,tmail...ect. and i do fine in a 1 on 1, 2 on 1...but if there are 3 or more people,i can not follow fast enouff.
if i go on a group ride with a bunch of hearing people i bring along a freind who terps for me.
 
If they say one thing, then say the opposite... then they are hypocrites!

We have a lot of that here at NTID/RIT. There are a lot of oral and hard-of-hearing students here that act like they don't need signs. Then when they talk about class, they complain about how the interpreters suck. Heh!
 
After all, not all deaf kids in oral program will ever have good speech skills. There'll be some parents looking inward themselves when they see the method they've chosen for their deaf kid isn't necessarily the right one for them and might have to start looking at the alternatives without blindly following the so-called experts
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Oh agreed...... and actually I've noticed that nowadays some parents are OK with Sign.....they just think that TC programs don't focus enough on speech (and that's a legitimate complaint, seeing as most of the talented speech therapists tend to be attracted towards the oral movement) or they want their kid's first language to be English. I have no problems whatsoever with those parents. Just wish that more hearing parents would realize that it's OK for dhh kids to learn Sign during their childhood. I really think that most dhh kids should learn Sign around elementary school age, rather then waiting til they are teens. I would have ZERO problems with oral programs if, it was ensured that the kids in it could learn ASL early on. That's really what I'm against......letting the dhh kid discover sign on their own, instead of having it introduced to them as a legitimate option.
And actually, from what I hear there are still kids who can talk, but don't really have a fluent grasp on the language or who have apraxia (apraxia and hearing loss is VERY VERY VERY common!) There are still plenty of sucesses who still have to attend speech therapy for language issues.
vfr, what I'm talking about are oralists who absolutly positively refuse to learn sign b/c of the stigma of it being "speshal needs"/ associated with disabilty. I have NO beef with late deafened folks or folks who have been exposed to both methods, and who usually consistantly choose speech. I'm just against audist/ hearing chaunavistic oral deaf folks. Hey, even at AG Bell conferences, it's not uncommon to see folks using ASL 'terps!
 
you missed it

"If they say one thing, then say the opposite... then they are hypocrites!"

most likly you missed it.
i do not need a terp in small groups... and in class i do!!!! your pals who said they do not need a terp was most likly talking that type of setting. is that so hard to understand? i can read and speak spanish (slowly)with my old girlfreind.. but get lost watch spanish subtitles..... nether case is being a hypocrite.
 
deaf school

i live very close to an all deaf school,and this year only 1 .....thats right..1 8th grader passed!!!! so it is not just a mater of signing...it is a need for better teachers.

a need to stop babying the kids and treating them like dolls...OH ,dont hurt their feelings!! it makes low self esteam!!"
bullshit!!!!!

the kid who passed? the kid with the highest math? the kid with the highest reading? mine!!

why? because when he was complaining about reading ,and other school work.. i took him to gallaudet..and showed him the dish washers, the garbage man,the people who had not finished school. people making 5 bucks an hour. i showed him how they have nice cars..(they dont) i showed him their harleys(none!) and fast racing bikes..(none!)...
so now he studies his ass off and will be getting a a motorcycle (he is paying!) on his 16th birthday...2 years to save up!
 
It is a known fact that "oral" deafies are lonely and unsatisfied people. But it is up to them to realize this and act accordingly.

Using ASL is not "dumb". Those days are gone forever!

Heck, even the grocery checker at Safeway knows how to say "Thankyou" in ASL!

Those of you who wish to grunt, speak thru your nose, and spit on your neighbor are welcome to do so. But it is not for me!
 
Lantana--I would very much appreciate your not putting down those who do choose to use speech. By doing so you include a very close childhood friend of mine whom I still think very well of, and I am deeply offended.

What's really ironic is that instead of prejudice against those who use ASL first, you do the exact same thing to those who use speech first. You insult their intelligence and you insinuate you know things about every single oral dhh person's inner state and social life that you do not. You may have known some people who do fit your stereotype, but that's exactly what it is.

ASL is a good choice for many people--but you cannot ignore the fact that speech may be better for others thanks to their individual circumstances. My friend had visual problems that probably made it easier for her to follow speech than to watch a signed interpretation. So think about things like that before you go and stick your foot in your mouth.

Stereotyping in the way that you have is really repugnant and I am not going to let that pass without comment.
 
Lantana said:
I can see your point and do agree with you DD. However too many of these "oralists" are impossible to understand. My husband is hearing and he is very embarassed when oralists try to speak to him and are unintelligible.

Too many oralists have no control over their voices. They would be much better off in an ASL world where "dialects" and impediments do not matter.
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Ha...ha....that reminds of my friends who speak imprefect in their spoken language. If that happens when they speaks funny to hearies in front of me then I would walk away immediately....

At the hardware store, my ASL deafie speaks unintelligible with the hardware specialist. I enjoyed watching the store associate's facial expression. Then he repied backto deafie while nodding too much like a bobbing head.....
 
i do not need a terp in small groups... and in class i do!!!!
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Wait....wait, hold on a sec.....do you utilize a Sign 'terp or more Oral Deaf accomondations? I'm NOT questioning those with oral skills who may use a Sign 'terp....lots of kids with good one on one oral skills, utilize Sign 'terps....there's nothing wrong with that! What I am complaining about are oral deaf types who don't utilize sign, but then they complain and bitch and moan b/c there's really no "oral deaf" equalivant of sign 'terps....like they are the ones who are always complaining b/c they can't make use of the most common accomondations available...make sense now?
 
Rose Immortal said:
I'm sorry if this is a baby question, but what is the way to teach ASL so that it is the most helpful for learning English and vice versa?

(Heck, in any household, how should introducing kids to two languages be handled so that the child truly winds up proficient in both?)
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I grew up in a sign language household, and I learned English through sign language. Heck, I still learn foreign languages through sign language. I have had French explained to me in LSF as well, and German in DGS. Sign language has nothing to do as a barrier for a person to learn the language, but the ability of teachers to explain the language clearly. Some teachers give up too fast because they don't know how to explain English to their Deaf students.
 
deafdyke said:
Wait....wait, hold on a sec.....do you utilize a Sign 'terp or more Oral Deaf accomondations? I'm NOT questioning those with oral skills who may use a Sign 'terp....lots of kids with good one on one oral skills, utilize Sign 'terps....there's nothing wrong with that! What I am complaining about are oral deaf types who don't utilize sign, but then they complain and bitch and moan b/c there's really no "oral deaf" equalivant of sign 'terps....like they are the ones who are always complaining b/c they can't make use of the most common accomondations available...make sense now?
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Actually, in Utah, oral interpreters are common. Yet, we still have sign language interpreters in our staff meetings.

If people cannot understand my coworker when he speaks, then it would be logic for him to sign so that he could be understood by everyone. Sometimes I really do wonder how much he actually understands. I think the pride where people have, if they sign, they would be viewed as incompetent or whatsoever. But which looks better, a person signing clearly being interpreted clearly or a person who refuses to sign speaking intelligibly?

Sometimes I do get the vibes that the guy do not view me in a positive way, just because I choose not to speak but rather to sign in ASL. Sometimes I do think that oral deafies get jealous of ASL deafies if ASL deafies are understood better and get along with people better because of much clearer communication? If one cannot communicate, then how can one be connected or understood?
 
This is what I have never been able to understand...the division between oral, SEE, PSL and ASL deafies, including those with BTE and CI aids. I just feel it all comes down to one common denominator... we are ALL DEAF. Period.

I grew up oral in a hearing family (I was born deaf), and it never bothered me...I went to several schools for the deaf, and I couldn't get along very well with other deaf children, as their flying hands bothered me greatly. I was eventually placed in a school where oralism ruled supreme, no sign language allowed. I left it after six years, and was mainstreamed. I graduated 7th in a class of 54 students, in a high school that had no deaf program, no interpreters, no notetakers... apparently I did very well. I did attend a college that had a deaf program, but I still did not use interpreters or notetakers...and did not have any problems keeping my grade average between 3.5 and 4.0.

I didnt learn ASL until I was 28 years old, only because I wanted to be able to communicate with a growing group of deaf friends that used ASL exculsively. Also, I finally had a deaf cousin in the family, younger than I am, but using TC and I wanted to be able to talk with him whenever we were able to get together.

Now that I know ASL and PSE, I use sign language interpreters and notetakers in large meetings and college courses, and I feel more enriched by that - and am oral at work or around hearing family members, and I have no problem switching back and forth.

There are times when I have trouble with language, and I resort to paper and pen at those times, and so do my co-workers - it does not bother us one bit. It's just part of communication - and part of everyday life.

So what, if I'm oral with ASL skills? Who cares? The main thing is that I identify myself as DEAF.

I think TC is the best way to go - it utilizes both oral and signing skills - and helps us move faster through the corporate ladder.

What is all the fuss about?
 
clearing up

ok, i guess i should have mentioned that i comer from a very long line of deaf men....but we do not go deaf until after the age of 8.
so i talk ,and most people need to be told i am deaf.

i hate when some fucking loser who was born "deaf" and sounds like a fucking dolphin (according to my pal) tells me i am not deaf...and then puts on a ipod! or turns up the volume on the tv!
i do not hear anything below 140 dbl!! and that loud hurts!!

so yes i would agree that if i did not sign ..then complain about terps..that would be stupid..moronic and hypacritical.
maybe you just need top tell the dumb ass to learn sign .....so he can get a girl instead of wanking every night. :sure:
 
What is all the fuss about?
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Well for me, it's the militancy with which some hardcore pro-oral experts push their ideals! Like they don't really see that while speech is a GREAT tool to have in a hearing world, that use of ASL could really really help them to acheive! They are almost like English only folks in their militancy!
 
morons

that is because they are morons who most likly do not know sign.i wish all deaf people could speak...even if it is just to tell the fucking retard at a gas station " 5 bucks on # pump1"..but i do understand it is a very hard thing to learn ...but my pal was born deaf and spreaks 5 languages...so ,it can be done.
 
However too many of these "oralists" are impossible to understand
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AGREED.....Why the hell do we have this "ASL is a crutch" mentaltiy? I have a friend who has REALLY difficult to understand speech.....and she's always yapping about how oralism has given her access to the hearing world.....Umm NO! It's given you SOME access, and more then you would have gotten through an ASL only methodology, but you still don't have more access then a TCer, b/c people can't understand you!
 
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