Ag Bell: Public Enemy #1

[deafdyke]

Deaflinxgeek, I have a high verbal IQ as well.....just saying that a high verbal IQ with dhh kids is pretty rare. Usually,it's the NONVERBAL IQ that's high, and the verbal IQ is relatively low,at least in dhh kids.
Sweetmind and others, I do agree that pure oral-only oralism is not a good methodolgy, BUT I do think that dhh kids should learn how to speak.....but I think that it should be more like a forigen language class, rather then therapy, therapy 24/7. I think too that speech is a great tool.....I don't think that ASL only is the answer.

 

[Rose Immortal]

but I think that it should be more like a forigen language class, rather then therapy, therapy 24/7.

How would you set up the curriculum, if you were in control of it?

 

[deafdyke]

Easy.....make it FUN, rather then boring old repetative speech drills....Like take a page from educational insistuions where kids learn another language early on, and make it FUN!!!!

 

[Rose Immortal]

Unfortunately I never got to take foreign languages until middle school. What's good for the kids?

 

[gnulinuxman]

Unfortunately I never got to take foreign languages until middle school. What's good for the kids?

Learning multiple languages helps you be more open-minded, as well as to appreciate different cultures. An obvious example is ASL and English. There is a different culture attached to each one, and I can appreciate both. I do have similar cultural concepts attached to my English and Spanish, though, because they're both used in the hearing American culture.

My point is that it helps people think more creatively if they know multiple languages and can appreciate them. (Key word: appreciate). If kids are forced through drilling and other boring and/or tedious methods, are they going to have the full benefit of it? Probably not. If they're taught about the culture and get games that are interesting and fun practice opportunities with people who use that language, they're going to appreciate it a lot more and want to learn more of the language.

The more interested someone is in learning a language, the faster they can learn it. I learned ASL in a year but I needed a LOT of hard work (and "silent periods" with my fiancee too were needed to practice it), but it all paid off. I'm still learning vocabulary here and there, but I know enough to sign smoothly and not fingerspell most of it.

 

[gnulinuxman]

Deaflinxgeek, I have a high verbal IQ as well.....just saying that a high verbal IQ with dhh kids is pretty rare. Usually,it's the NONVERBAL IQ that's high, and the verbal IQ is relatively low,at least in dhh kids.
Sweetmind and others, I do agree that pure oral-only oralism is not a good methodolgy, BUT I do think that dhh kids should learn how to speak.....but I think that it should be more like a forigen language class, rather then therapy, therapy 24/7. I think too that speech is a great tool.....I don't think that ASL only is the answer.

Agreed 100%! This is exactly how I feel too. Yes, English should be a foreign-language class rather than therapy (therapy is for people who have life-threatening problems or who need work--I hardly consider speech therapy for Deaf people "therapy"). I do agree also that deaf people should be taught how to speak, but not forced to. If a deaf person is forced to speak, are they really more likely to be better at it? Logically, they'd be WORSE because of the fact that they were forced, and possibly have feelings of resentment and hate of it because of all the bad memories of it. Now, if they're taught English like a foreign language, they'd probably be more motivated to learn! That's how people get fluent quickly--they have to develop an desire to become fluent. Drilling doesn't do that.

Language is a USEFUL TOOL. I don't think it should be used to make a deaf kid "normal". The more tools you have in your toolbox, the better you will be at life, I guess!

 

[gnulinuxman]

I think the problem is that you haven't acknowledged a lot of stuff like what I put in bold, until after people push you. If you had said up front that you knew not all hearing people are bad, and that not all who fall into other general groups you criticize are bad, you might've found people having different attitudes towards you. As it is, a lot of people may have already formed their judgments from the generalizations you've made.

It might help if, when you make statements about large groups of people, you said, "SOME people think or act like this" instead of saying "THIS GROUP thinks or acts like this." The second way just makes people defensive and after they see that, they won't really think about any points you're trying to make, just about what looks like stereotyping. Even if you don't mean to come across that way, it can give that appearance.

I'm not trying to attack you with this--I'm just trying to help make this a more productive debate.

Well, I am a friend of hers and have pointed this out to you guys too. Come on, if she was REALLY deafist, do you honestly think I'd be her friend? Look at that area below my user name...

 

[Sweetmind]

I don't think that ASL only is the answer.

??????? ASL and SE as BI BI Langauge with or without orally speaking.. So what is your point? Many deaf languages from other countries has asl in it that makes sense.

You have no right to say this in your quote that is your mistake as usual. The problem is that they dont hire Deaf teachers because they have no faith in them after all AGB destroy our true language because he had a very bittered thought or feeling about our hands to communicate with.

So what is your problem about ASL itself? IT is a real true language that is important for those d/Deaf babies as well as many parents found ASL is the answer for hearing babies who cannot speak from the start. Mind you!

 

[Cloggy]

AG BELL: PUBLIC ENEMY #1

Through the pages of history, it is becoming more evident that AG Bell is a public enemy #1. He had caused many problems for Deaf community in 19th century and his clutches are still reaching into the 21st century.

He even went to U.S. Congress to ban the existence of deaf race. He wanted to wipe it out. He was responsible for oralism and how he got deaf schools to change its ways. He got many Deaf teachers fired and replaced with hearing audists.

It is proven a fraud that AG Bell did not invent the telephone. It was somene else and the history had shown how he "stole" the invention from someone.

A lot of Deaf in the late 19th and early part of the 20th century feared him.

So he is the public enemy #1 in the Deaf community for generations to come!

He had a large influence at the time and pressed for oral education for the deaf.
But the church was a deciding factor as well.

The bible said "there was the word" and this was gladly interpreted that in order to be saved, one had to be able to speak.

Bell used his influenced to accomplish this.

Also, in the Turin assembly where the decision was made to educate orally only, there was no deaf person invited to talk.

Indeed, a sad day for the deaf world.

 

[VamPyroX]

Hmm... this could prove to be true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Graham_Bell

He was into eugenics, which is the belief of creating better humans by eliminating "flawed" people such as deaf people.

 

[Cloggy]

BY the way: England also opposed appearently

The only countries opposed to the ban were the United States (represented by Edward Miner Gallaudet, Rev. Thomas Gallaudet, Issac Peet, James Denison, and Charles Stoddard) and Britain.

Also, some info on Bell

Alexander Graham Bell Promotes Deaf Education

Telephone inventor Bell, whose mother was hard of hearing and whose father spent much of his life promoting a defunct teaching method for the deaf called "visible speech," begins his career as a deaf educator. In 1872, he opens a school in Boston that concentrates on oral methods of instruction for teachers of the deaf. The school is not successful, however, due to heavy opposition from established deaf schools that use manual sign methods. Bell eventually gives up administering deaf education and refocuses his attention on a contraption he has been tinkering with that mechanizes speech. In 1876, he invents the telephone. Armed with wealth and enormous recognition, he goes on to found the Volta Bureau to promote oral- based education for deaf children. A period of upheaval in deaf education begins with a backlash against sign language.

 

[Boult]

Hmm... this could prove to be true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Graham_Bell

He was into eugenics, which is the belief of creating better humans by eliminating "flawed" people such as deaf people.

You see, we are trying to eradicate many diseases responsible for deafness like rubella (german measles) and so forth. eugenics during his time was not forbidden but now we are heading into the era where we want to ban eugenics. so again

 

[Boult]

BY the way: England also opposed appearently



Also, some info on Bell

You should have seen my first post in this thread regarding milan. England did oppose but afterward adopted the oral method although.

That's what I told those pro-Deaf in other forum. Bell taught in same school that Clerc taught before opening his own school and didn't work out so he closed down. big deal. it was brief.

 

[Cloggy]

....England did oppose but afterward adopted the oral method although. ......

Sorry, made the post before I read all of it...
Still, USA also adopted the oral method didn't it?

 

[Angel]

IT is a real true language that is important for those d/Deaf babies as well as many parents found ASL is the answer for hearing babies who cannot speak from the start. Mind you!

Why is it so important that deaf children need to know ASL or is it because you prefer them to use ONLY ASL than any other language methods?


Do you have a link to provide about ASL is the answer for hearing babies who can not speak?

 

[Cloggy]

........ is a real true language that is important for those d/Deaf babies as well as many parents found ASL is the answer for hearing babies who cannot speak from the start.....

From where I come from, Europe, not like you Sweetmind, USA (Just covering my ass in case I don't know what I am talking about...) babies have great difficulties to speak and start mastering it after a couple of years...

But on a serious note, using sign to babies from the very start is very rewarding. I think Oliver Sachs wrote about it in his book regarding deafness. But for children with for example Down syndrome, sign is very effective.
I used material from a friend that has a son who has Downs. He used sign to communicate with him and that went very well. After a couple of years it was not needed any more, but it was very usefull in the beginning.

 

[Boult]

Sorry, made the post before I read all of it...
Still, USA also adopted the oral method didn't it?

no, they didn't but they simply followed the trend of oral method from oversea while there are oral deaf schools in USA already and while those deaf schools did their own manual signings and still have little bit of speech classes but some dropped that.

For example Bell taught speech at ASD(modern name) and had a few students in his class there and decided to leave and open his own school to see if he would get a large nbrs but there were protests and few attendances so he closed up the school and changed focus of his goal. You know in his time, it is not great idea to open a oral school in same town that has deaf school eh.

You should pick up a book called "Deaf Heritage " by Jack R. Gannon which I already own due to class requirement at NTID in a course called "Deaf Heritage".

 

[Boult]

Why is it so important that deaf children need to know ASL or is it because you prefer them to use ONLY ASL than any other language methods?


Do you have a link to provide about ASL is the answer for hearing babies who can not speak?

you could have seen the banner ad at top of this AD site about baby sign but it is not a full ASL though.. but a baby sign does help. In other word, to her ASL works for her children because she's deaf.

I would like to see a research on a deaf parent raising hearing kid by the way of documentary movie like Sound and Fury you know.. We haven't see one unless you or others know of one?

 

[deafdyke]

So what is your problem about ASL itself? IT is a real true language that is important for those d/Deaf babies as well as many parents found ASL is the answer for hearing babies who cannot speak from the start.

I have nothing against ASL.....It's just that I think it's better when dhh kids have ALL sorts of communication tools in their toolbox. I know too many dhh kids who wish their parents had given them everything.
Doing ASL only is just as limiting as doing Speech only. Plus there are some dhh kids who don't undy ASL, and so communicate by SEE or whatever.
I know about ASL being used for communicative disabilites.....it's not just for deaf kids any more. There are kids with apraxia, tracheostomies, CP etc who use ASL as a first language.

 

[Rose Immortal]

I know about ASL being used for communicative disabilites.....it's not just for deaf kids any more. There are kids with apraxia, tracheostomies, CP etc who use ASL as a first language.

If those children are hearing, do they run into any problems with the grammatical structure of pure ASL? I would think that could get a bit confusing if one hears English day in and day out.