A hate crime....

[Reba]

Not in the least. Are you ignorant of the way motive impacts sentencing?

Don't take my word for it (I know you don't anyway). Check the sentencing guidelines and laws.

In which universe?

When the judge charges the jury prior to their deliberations. He tells them they must follow what the law says.

In the cases of people charged with hate crimes, it is doesn't take a great deal of effort to support the charge. They have to prove motive, anyway. Motive impacts sentencing. That is why there are minimum and maximum sentencing times embedded in our criminal courts.

That's not how it works in court. Proving motive, much less proving hate, isn't always that easy.

Umm, you can't have sentencing without conviction. If the prosecutor can't prove that a hate crime was committed and get a guilty decision, then sentencing never comes into play.

Conviction must happen before sentencing. No conviction of hate crime, no sentencing for hate crime.

However, assault, destruction of property, murder, etc., are more tangible crimes to prove.

"Oh, my. It is hard to prove someone committed a crime based on hate. Let's not go there. I just don't have the energy to deal with that today."

Obviously, you don't know what "burden" means in relation to trying a criminal case. It has nothing to do with physical effort. Sigh . . .

What do you call the crimes committed by Skinhead organizations against innocent black citizens of this country? Doesn't take Einstein to see the hate. .

I call those crimes assault, murder, destruction of private property, etc. Show that the courts aren't intimidated by them, and throw the full weight of the courts against them.

 

[Cheetah]

Since when is any assault NOT a hate crime? Do assaulters actually like their victims?

It goes to the motivation not the action. Why did person A attack person B? Motivation is a pretty important part of the decision making process to decide on the penalty for a crime they were found guilty of.

I'm not involved in the criminal justice system so I my be a bit off about when motivation comes into play in the courts.

 

[Reba]

I'm sorry but this is not a very good example. I mean, you might as well ask:

Suppose:

1. A person assaults another person. Is this first or second degree of assault?

2. A person kills another person. Is this murder or manslaughter?

3. A man assaulted a woman. Is this rape, another type of sexual assault or simply 1st/2nd degree of assault?

4. A person hits and kills another person by car. Is this murder or vehicular manslaughter or simply an accident?

None of those cases are determined by emotional motives.

The degrees depend on premeditation, that is, were they planned before they were committed. They also depend on the type of damage or injury done. They also include the mode of damage or attack. None of that includes emotions.

There is a SEVERE lack of information to decide. It seems like you are assuming that a hate crime is judged based ONLY on race. This is wrong.

No. I was only using a clear, simple example in relation to the post that I was replying to. The other post mentioned race, so that's what I replied to.

We have degrees of assault. We have degrees of murder. Heck, I think we even have different degrees of sexual assault. Why is it okay for those to have different degrees while believing that "hate crime" shouldn't exist?

Those other degrees have nothing to do with motive. They have to do with premeditation, and the type of injury resulting.

Don't you think a woman would be pissed if she finds out that her perp (who savagely beat her up) got less time than another perp who only simply raped another woman? (or vice versa, not sure who would get more time)

What does that have to do with hate? Those are two separate crimes.

See my point? Everyone's gonna get pissed no matter what, even if everything was equal.

Can't make 'em happy....

Well, that's a fact!

 

[saywhatkid]

her remarks are not unfounded. Have there been more hate crimes committed against minorities and Jews than against white Christians?

Yes.

Of the hate crimes committed against minorities and jews, was the majority of the offenders white?

Yes (because they are not classified as minorities).

Do the majority of white people in America consider themselves Christians?

Yes.

1 + 1 = 2

Interesting math. Here is something to consider; there are a lot of Christians that are "CINO". We also refer to them as Christians that are only in church on Easter and Christmas. Considering themselves Christians is a far cry from walking the walk of Christ. Anyhow, that is my 2¢ worth.

 

[jillio]

Since when is any assault NOT a hate crime? Do assaulters actually like their victims?

Some claim to love them.

 

[jillio]

Interesting math. Here is something to consider; there are a lot of Christians that are "CINO". We also refer to them as Christians that are only in church on Easter and Christmas. Considering themselves Christians is a far cry from walking the walk of Christ. Anyhow, that is my 2¢ worth.

How does that change the history of the church? How does that change organized religion's use of the Bible to condone bigotry and exclusion?

 

[saywhatkid]

It goes to the motivation not the action. Why did person A attack person B? Motivation is a pretty important part of the decision making process to decide on the penalty for a crime they were found guilty of.

I'm not involved in the criminal justice system so I my be a bit off about when motivation comes into play in the courts.

Well, determining motivation might involve a lot of assumptions being made. As Joe Friday would say: "Just the facts, maam."

 

[saywhatkid]

How does that change the history of the church?

How does the history of the Crusades reflect the hate crimes against GLBT community?

 

[jillio]

Well, determining motivation might involve a lot of assumptions being made. As Joe Friday would say: "Just the facts, maam."

So, a gay kid is standing on the street waiting for the light to change. Two or three kids come up behind him and bean him with a ball bat. They then say, "That's what fags get!"

What motive would you assign?

 

[jillio]

How does the history of the Crusades reflect the hate crimes against GLBT community?

Keep reading. You will get into the modern history of the way the church, on a regular basis, used the Bible to condone exclusion and bigotry.

 

[Cheetah]

Interesting math. Here is something to consider; there are a lot of Christians that are "CINO". We also refer to them as Christians that are only in church on Easter and Christmas. Considering themselves Christians is a far cry from walking the walk of Christ. Anyhow, that is my 2¢ worth.

Its not for you to judge...

 

[jillio]

Really? Which group have I made false accusations about?


In that case, you should have no problem providing numbers to back up your claim.


Perhaps you should not make unfounded remarks about a group to which I belong.

We could start with homosexuals.

 

[jillio]

I'm sure prosecutes take into account the likelihood of conviction before attempting to charge someone with a Hate Crime. I highly doubt that hate crimes has increased the cost of prosecuting crimes, especially when you consider that hate crime laws has impacted social behavior in a positive way (we talk a lot more about hate crime now than ever before - more people are aware of how their actions relate to their bias).

Exactly. Prosecutors are all about winning the case. They don't prosecute those they don't think they can win.

 

[Reba]

We could start with homosexuals.

What false accusations have I made against homosexuals?

 

[Beowulf]

What false accusations have I made against homosexuals?

Uh oh.

 

[jillio]

Don't take my word for it (I know you don't anyway). Check the sentencing guidelines and laws.



When the judge charges the jury prior to their deliberations. He tells them they must follow what the law says.


That's not how it works in court. Proving motive, much less proving hate, isn't always that easy.

Umm, you can't have sentencing without conviction. If the prosecutor can't prove that a hate crime was committed and get a guilty decision, then sentencing never comes into play.

Conviction must happen before sentencing. No conviction of hate crime, no sentencing for hate crime.

However, assault, destruction of property, murder, etc., are more tangible crimes to prove.


Obviously, you don't know what "burden" means in relation to trying a criminal case. It has nothing to do with physical effort. Sigh . . .


I call those crimes assault, murder, destruction of private property, etc. Show that the courts aren't intimidated by them, and throw the full weight of the courts against them.

She says from a position of white privilege that guarantees she never has to worry about a hate crime being committed against her. That is what the privileged designation is all about. Easy to sit back and determine for others when you never even have to consider that you might loose your life based on nothing more than the color of your skin or your sexual orientation.

 

[Cheetah]

Well, determining motivation might involve a lot of assumptions being made. As Joe Friday would say: "Just the facts, maam."

The facts can be determined by investigation. Sometimes the "facts" are that the perp was heard multiple times making racial remarks about how such-and-such person should be put in their place. Then when it happens, it is logical to apply their comments to the crime and determine that they perpetuated a hate crime.

I'm not saying it's always this clear cut. I'm also not saying that this is never wrongly applied. I am saying it's a tool to provide justice in a way that is socially responsible.

 

[saywhatkid]

So, a gay kid is standing on the street waiting for the light to change. Two or three kids come up behind him and bean him with a ball bat. They then say, "That's what fags get!"

What motive would you assign?

When they used those words, their motives are no longer assumed. When those same two kids beat the same gay kid over the head and take his wallet, is this a hate crime?

 

[jillio]

What false accusations have I made against homosexuals?

Start by reading through this thread:

http://www.alldeaf.com/topic-debates/95985-origins-homosexuality.html

Let me know when you are finished. I'll dig up some more.

 

[saywhatkid]

The facts can be determined by investigation. Sometimes the "facts" are that the perp was heard multiple times making racial remarks about how such-and-such person should be put in their place. Then when it happens, it is logical to apply their comments to the crime and determine that they perpetuated a hate crime.

I'm not saying it's always this clear cut. I'm also not saying that this is never wrongly applied. I am saying it's a tool to provide justice in a way that is socially responsible.

That is not an assumption. There is evidence.