Mass Shooting in California , 6 dead :(

[VacationGuy234]

When an individual sells the gun or gives it away, the parties can fill out a bill of sale or statement of transfer with the information. Nothing "official;" just like selling or giving any item of value. Each party keeps a copy for proof.

Is that required by law? If not, is the document still considered a contract in court?

 

[VacationGuy234]

Sadly, random crazed killings will continue to happen periodically. There's no legislative, sociological, psychological or medical solution. We can do the best we can to ameliorate the situation but we can't cure it.

I disagree with this. I think we can put procedures in place so that people with mental histories cannot access guns legally. We already have requirements for medical professionals to contact authorities and that information should be made available to those who can authorize a license for ownership.

We have laws in place for people without mental illness to buy guns, why can't we do the same for the mentally ill?

We can't stop illegal gun ownership, but we can make it harder for the mentally ill to get legal ownership.

 

[diehardbiker]

That is clearly infringes of 2nd amendment right applied to these free men, there is last sentence, it mention that it shall NOT be infringed which means government shall never makes law that restricts the rights of bearing firearms. Don't forget those with mental illness that is not in custody of government is considered as a FREE MAN. It never mentioned any kinds of exemptions on 2nd amendment. There is reason for this 2nd amendment.

You can disagree all you want just to complicate the law, the law was so damn simple to begin with and I am not going to complicate them.

I disagree with this. I think we can put procedures in place so that people with mental histories cannot access guns legally. We already have requirements for medical professionals to contact authorities and that information should be made available to those who can authorize a license for ownership.

We have laws in place for people without mental illness to buy guns, why can't we do the same for the mentally ill?

We can't stop illegal gun ownership, but we can make it harder for the mentally ill to get legal ownership.

 

[Calvin]

So how do we screen every humans for mental illness? Reba has a point and is true... even if we notice this person has mental illness, there's no way to tell whether this person would be violent or not.

All we have to do is be vigilant and if this person is suspicious, we have a right to call police to check them out.

I disagree with this. I think we can put procedures in place so that people with mental histories cannot access guns legally. We already have requirements for medical professionals to contact authorities and that information should be made available to those who can authorize a license for ownership.

We have laws in place for people without mental illness to buy guns, why can't we do the same for the mentally ill?

We can't stop illegal gun ownership, but we can make it harder for the mentally ill to get legal ownership.

 

[diehardbiker]

YUP, there is so many people with mental illness and they are not out there to make killing, only very few, no way to recognize which is which going to open fire. Same with those without mental illness do the killing too, no difference really.

So how do we screen every humans for mental illness? Reba has a point and is true... even if we notice this person has mental illness, there's no way to tell whether this person would be violent or not.

All we have to do is be vigilant and if this person is suspicious, we have a right to call police to check them out.

 

[VacationGuy234]

That is clearly infringes of 2nd amendment right applied to these free men, there is last sentence, it mention that it shall NOT be infringed which means government shall never makes law that restricts the rights of bearing firearms. Don't forget those with mental illness that is not in custody of government is considered as a FREE MAN. It never mentioned any kinds of exemptions on 2nd amendment. There is reason for this 2nd amendment.

You can disagree all you want just to complicate the law, the law was so damn simple to begin with and I am not going to complicate them.

Actually, even if I agree with the infringement on the right, that's not true. In fact, it's the reason we have so much debate on the subject. And, it's meaning is so broad you can't define exactly what that means. It's purposely rewritten that way so it will cover or not cover a lot of things. That's how laws work.

Keep in mind, it's also the job of the government to protect the people and that includes the shooter himself. Does the government not have a duty to protect that person from himself as well?

The biggest need for the second amendment wasn't home security, in my opinion. It was to protect us from government. And, in case anyone hasn't noticed, we don't stand much of a chance with today's military technology.

Calvin, we are already screening them. If you will notice, these people already have histories. There are already medical people involved in their cases. In this particular case even more so, the person's parents had contacted police before. Shouldn't the person who granted a license have that information to make an informed decision?

 

[diehardbiker]

No, the law was written to prevent government from running the society. Our forefather fought to be free from regime of British government. British government is gun control freak! So these forefather wanted society to take care of themselves instead of government. That is the true intention on American independence. If British government were not control freak, we are pretty much STILL owned by British government (Like Canadians still are).

Read to constitution carefully, there is language written that in order to have state keep in order... how? There is answer in there.

We can NOT depend on our government to protect ourselves because, government can turn into tyranny anytime, thus leaving us totally unprotected, the risk is too far greatly. You may wish learn how WWII started. If you check their gun laws in Europe during period between these two world wars, you will understand how easy it was for Adolf Hitler overpowering these countries government, effectively violated the Treaty of Versailles, and became out of control. If you had wondering why Adolf Hitler never touched United States. There is more that I don't know yet and am learning what exactly happened.

Like Jiro said earlier which I agreed is right, if you wish full protection from government... then move to North Korea! I wouldn't!

Keep in mind, it's also the job of the government to protect the people and that includes the shooter himself. Does the government not have a duty to protect that person from himself as well?

 

[VacationGuy234]

No, the law was written to prevent government from running the society. Our forefather fought to be free from regime of British government. British government is gun control freak! So these forefather wanted society to take care of themselves instead of government. That is the true intention on American independence. If British government were not control freak, we are pretty much STILL owned by British government.

Read to constitution carefully, there is language written that in order to have state keep in order... how? There is answer in there.

We didn't fight the War of Independence over gun control. And, we didn't start a society based on anarchy.

You might be interested in this:
Causes of the American Revolution

And, we already had the ability to raise troops and arms before the war.

Colonial Legislatures – The existence of colonial legislatures meant that the colonies were in many ways independent of the crown. The legislatures were allowed to levy taxes, muster troops, and pass laws. Over time, these powers became rights in the eyes of many colonists. When they were curtailed by the British, conflict ensued. The future leaders of the United States were born in these legislatures.

EDIT: You should come out here and take a tour sometime, you can't throw a stick around here without hitting The American Revolution.

 

[diehardbiker]

Did I specifically said that the gun control was the only reason for independence? I never said only reason, there are several other reasons including free trade and other blah blah blah.

Still, the gun control was part of several problems that American settlers had to deal with. They were tired of British government confiscated their firearms at their will, at anytime. There is motivation behind gun control, to ensure that society can't fight back their government, or other government that might invade.

Like I said there is more that I haven't learn yet, and I am sure that there are many that you may not realize yet. Nobody knows everything, period.

From the link that you just posted, see red font...

The American Revolution began in 1775 as open conflict between the united thirteen colonies and Great Britain. By the Treaty of Paris that ended the war in 1783, the colonies had won their independence. While no one event can be pointed to as the actual cause of the revolution, the war began as a disagreement over the way in which Great Britain treated the colonies versus the way the colonies felt they should be treated. Americans felt they deserved all the rights of Englishmen. The British, on the other hand, felt that the colonies were created to be used in the way that best suited the crown and parliament. This conflict is embodied in one of the rallying cries of the American Revolution: No Taxation Without Representation.

We didn't fight the War of Independence over gun control. And, we didn't start a society based on anarchy.

You might be interested in this:
Causes of the American Revolution

And, we already had the ability to raise troops and arms before the war.

Colonial Legislatures – The existence of colonial legislatures meant that the colonies were in many ways independent of the crown. The legislatures were allowed to levy taxes, muster troops, and pass laws. Over time, these powers became rights in the eyes of many colonists. When they were curtailed by the British, conflict ensued. The future leaders of the United States were born in these legislatures.

EDIT: You should come out here and take a tour sometime, you can't throw a stick around here without hitting The American Revolution.

 

[VacationGuy234]

You may wish learn how WWII started. If you check their gun laws in Europe during period between these two world wars, you will understand how easy it was for Adolf Hitler overpowering these countries government, effectively violated the Treaty of Versailles, and became out of control. If you had wondering why Adolf Hitler never touched United States. There is more that I don't know yet and am learning what exactly happened.

Did you also read that at the time Germany was a totalitarian state? Before we wrap ourselves in the flag here, perhaps we should put this into perspective. Germany spent much more on military than other countries. In fact, the U.S. was keeping out of the war because we knew it. We were supplying Britain by naval means at the time for a good reason. Make no mistake, we were not prepared to take on Germany leading up to the war. All those tire and metal drives were not done just to keep idle citizens busy.
We didn't have what it took to win. And, when we got into the war we were fighting battle ready veterans, not first time soldiers. Germany succeeded in Europe because they already had fighting experience and superior equipment.

Germany's conquest of Europe certainly did not depend on how many shot guns and pistols ordinary citizens had against tanks and armored carriers.

If you want to use that argument, perhaps you can explain how we win in Iraq were everyone has an AK?

 

[VacationGuy234]

Did I specifically said that the gun control was the only reason for independence? I never said only reason, there are several other reasons including free trade and other blah blah blah.

Still, the gun control was part of several problems that American settlers had to deal with. They were tired of British government confiscated their firearms at their will, at anytime. There is motivation behind gun control, to ensure that society can't fight back their government, or other government that might invade.

Like I said there is more that I haven't learn yet, and I am sure that there are many that you may not realize yet. Nobody knows everything, period.

From the link that you just posted, see red font...

The American Revolution began in 1775 as open conflict between the united thirteen colonies and Great Britain. By the Treaty of Paris that ended the war in 1783, the colonies had won their independence. While no one event can be pointed to as the actual cause of the revolution, the war began as a disagreement over the way in which Great Britain treated the colonies versus the way the colonies felt they should be treated. Americans felt they deserved all the rights of Englishmen. The British, on the other hand, felt that the colonies were created to be used in the way that best suited the crown and parliament. This conflict is embodied in one of the rallying cries of the American Revolution: No Taxation Without Representation.

You're correct it wasn't one reason. But, you were making the point by associating the right to bear arms with the Revolution.

 

[VacationGuy234]

Basically, we need a provision to help the mentally ill people from killing other people and themselves. You can be for the right to bear arms and also be for helping mentally ill people. In my opinion, there is no contradiction.

 

[diehardbiker]

Did you realize that the Treaty of Versaille banned Germany from building up superior military? There was so much restrictions that the Treaty of Versaille applied on Germany, yet Adolf Hitler figured a way to break that treaty and start the invasion... with the easiest country to invade upward to more difficult countries. You guessed it, why easy country to start with? Simply citizens in these country don't have access to firearm to defend themselves.

And don't forget Americans have had intensive military experience. Far greater than Germany, just that American refused to do anything until they found a credible threats from Germany, decided to join with British. That was long after Germany invaded Poland and France, even Russia too. Hence, why Americans were able to overthrow Nazis regime in "no time".

Why are we wasting time over rights on bearing arms? If these mentally illness were that serious, why are Americans ignoring these people to begin with. That is the problem, not firearms. Firearms can't fix those with mental illness. In other word, wow we spend so much money, and time on gun control, and we cut down spending, and time on mental health treatment... wow a clever way to screw us up!

We didn't have what it took to win. And, when we got into the war we were fighting battle ready veterans, not first time soldiers. Germany succeeded in Europe because they already had fighting experience and superior equipment.

 

[VacationGuy234]

Still, the gun control was part of several problems that American settlers had to deal with. They were tired of British government confiscated their firearms at their will, at anytime. There is motivation behind gun control, to ensure that society can't fight back their government, or other government that might invade.

You are correct. The battles of Lexington and Concord, which took place very close to were I live, were fought over arms. The British were going to destroy a weapons cache and they did not succeed. The events of that time are reenacted every year here. However, that was only a tactical measure to control militias and they were told not to engage the colonist. They were not taking away guns from ordinary citizens, there was no ban by the British. In fact, men came from as far as two hours away with their own guns to fight.

The irony here is that the attempt to contain a militia is the very strategy gun opponents to promote gun control laws. They contend that the right to bear arms was written not for ordinary citizens, but for militias that the British were trying to stop.

It is very interesting.. I'm still learning myself.

 

[diehardbiker]

Yep, VCG! There is not a single reason or cause of American revolution. It began with 13 colony representatives united together in Virginia to have a meeting discussing their various topics and their frustrations with British. One of Virginia settlers stood up and said "Even though we are from different colonies, call yourselves whichever you wish, BUT, we are American and it is time to united ourselves together as American and fight for our independence from British" That was sometimes in early 1770s, few years before 1776.

The delay on declare on independence based on good reason, these patriots knew they can't fight themselves alone and needs outside help, and that was France.

 

[VacationGuy234]

Did you realize that the Treaty of Versaille banned Germany from building up superior military? There was so much restrictions that the Treaty of Versaille applied on Germany, yet Adolf Hitler figured a way to break that treaty and start the invasion... with the easiest country to invade upward to more difficult countries. You guessed it, why easy country to start with? Simply citizens in these country don't have access to firearm to defend themselves.

And don't forget Americans have had intensive military experience. Far greater than Germany, just that American refused to do anything until they found a credible threats from Germany, decided to join with British. That was long after Germany invaded Poland and France, even Russia too. Hence, why Americans were able to overthrow Nazis regime in "no time".

Yes, I am aware of the treaty. We have a great military, I'm not denying that. But, we are not in and of ourselves a military country. Because of this we, or any country for that matter, cannot compete with one. If you look back at how Rome conquered the Greeks, it was because of military input. Their legion was more maneuverable than the Greek phalanx. The Romans were geared for war.

And, we didn't engage the Germans until late 1942, almost a year after war was declared, even then it took three more years to finish, "no time" is a very relative term.

Perhaps in the future, we will take better care of the mentally ill.

 

[whatdidyousay!]

Most of the time, yes. 90% of the time, yes. Schizophrenics tend to stay isolated and are rarely a danger to anyone but themselves. If they do attack anyone... it tends to be loved ones or relatives. That is why I linked the articles. They tend to only account for 3-7% of violent crimes... Even out of that 3-7%, those are typically un-medicated schizophrenics. Out of that 3-&% of violent crimes, only 3% of those are murders. That 3-7% of violent crimes includes everything from murders to shoving, pushing, punching, kicking and all of that. Most schizophrenics are withdrawn, isolated and terrified of their surroundings. I suggest you take a little time if you ever have the chance and do a tour of a mental health ward. View the schizophrenics and watch their behavior. Typically they are in a corner or their own room by themselves ( sometimes talking to themselves yes... ) but they are rarely social or out bothering anyone... they are withdrawn and scared. There are types of schizophrenia you have to take into account as well. The only truly type that is usually of any danger to anyone is paranoid schizophrenics as they think someone is always out to get them ect. ect. If you thought someone was following you constantly and out to get/kill you... you'd be on edge too... Thankfully, paranoid schizophrenia isn't really that common of a sub-type and only about 1/5 or less compared to catatonic schizophrenia ( people sit still for long periods of time ) Disorganized schizophrenia ( often don't bathe or shower/talk disorganized ) Undifferentiated schizophrenia ( See or hear things basically ) or residual Schizophrenia ( Typically just withdrawn and quiet ) and you may classify Schizoaffective in this if you would like being they are still classified as Schizophrenic but they have a mood disorder such as bipolar or depression with it. Being Schizophrenics make up less than 1% of the total population, it is impossible that they commit even a significant amount of murders or crimes to even scratch the surface of what normal minded people commit. When you think about all the crimes and murders people commit over jealousy, money for life insurance, gang murders, random acts of violence, robberies, home invasions and god only knows what... statistically... the murders or even acts of violence seriously mentally ill people such as schizophrenics commit ( keeping in mind that they make up such a low percentage of the population once again ) doesn't even hardly put a dent in those. Again, in one of my links, a well known psychiatrist and researcher said that most of these mass murders are not mentally ill especially schizophrenic as schizophrenics rarely posses the mental capabilities to plan crimes so heinous such as these. A schizophrenics mind is here there and everywhere... rarely is it so focused as to make plans to gather things such as weapons, chart where to go, map out locations and various other things. If you had 20 voices talking to you at once... could you manage to plan something as easy as your day let alone anything like that? I hardly think so.

The fact of the matter is everyone is so quick to blame anything they can that is different than themselves or something they don't understand. Non-mentally ill people for instance here. OH, it's mentally ill people, SCHIZOPHRENICS! Well guess what, schizophrenia is so rare and so debilitating and misunderstood and portrayed so terribly in Hollywood and various other places people are quick to point fingers. Then people started screaming I'm mentally ill and that's why I did it so it got an even worse name. So, people who aren't mentally ill who have nothing wrong point the finger at it while people with schizophrenia, depression, bipolar or god knows what are just sitting here like WTF man I would NEVER do something like that and the friends and family of mentally ill people who have actually READ up on it and UNDERSTAND mental illnesses are shaking their heads because they realize the general population is so under-educated about mental illness the stigma and irrational fear attached to it is unreal!

There are still white people that blame black people... Yes, it's true... STUPID, but true. They're sitting out there saying "it's black people who are responsible for all our crime blah blah" so they're out there blaming that like idiots!

There are people out there blaming Hispanics for our crime rate even! Oh it's all these Hispanics they're the reason for these shootings!

There are people out there blaming immigrants for the crime and shootings! Oh, it's because we have all these damn immigrants in this country, we just need to shut down the borders! Let me tell you how many times I've been speaking Romanian and been told to go back to Mexico. ROMANIAN DOESN'T EVEN SOUND MEXICAN!!

There are people out there who blame 9-11... Oh yes, let's not forget Indians ( No not Native American's because they are Native American's and NOT Indians... but INDIANS ) Who are mistaken for Arabic people every single day... Who are treated like dirt for no reason... even the Arabs who had NOTHING TO DO with 9-11 who have been here and are treated like crap! Oh, these mass shootings are their fault... blame them... :roll:

And my favorite.... BLAME THE GAYS! IT'S THE GAYS FAULT MASS SHOOTINGS HAPPEN!!! Oh, that is my favorite, it really is.... :roll:

My point here is... everyone always is quick to point the finger at someone... ANYONE but themselves or someone they love or whatever... We ALWAYS have to point the finger... ALWAYS. Fact of the matter is... it was that individual. He was a MESSED UP SICK TWISTED individual. END OF STORY! You don't have to be mentally ill to be a SICK TWISTED INDIVIDUAL and go devastate peoples lives... many people in history have proved this point to us time and time again. You can just be a sick twisted messed up racist douche hat like Hitler and cause devastation and havoc in the lives of BILLIONS! He's been dead and gone FOREVER and we STILL feel his ripple of devastation, pain and suffering he caused! The point again being again, you do not by any means have to be and a lot of the times these are not... mentally ill people... they are SICK... TWISTED.... people... I'm not saying some weren't... but by far not ALL are or were.

Keep in mind.... Vincent Van-Gogh was Schizophrenic... and we treasure him as one of the greatest artists of all time still to this day... Did he hurt anyone? No.......... he just hurt... HIMSELF!

I really that anyone can just walk off the street and take a tour of a mental health ward and watch the patients as if they're animals in a zoo.
Patients do have their rights to privacy .

 

[VacationGuy234]

Yep, VCG! There is not a single reason or cause of American revolution. It began with 13 colony representatives united together in Virginia to have a meeting discussing their various topics and their frustrations with British. One of Virginia settlers stood up and said "Even though we are from different colonies, call yourselves whichever you wish, BUT, we are American and it is time to united ourselves together as American and fight for our independence from British" That was sometimes in early 1770s, few years before 1776.

The delay on declare on independence based on good reason, these patriots knew they can't fight themselves alone and needs outside help, and that was France.

I agree.

 

[whatdidyousay!]

I disagree with this. I think we can put procedures in place so that people with mental histories cannot access guns legally. We already have requirements for medical professionals to contact authorities and that information should be made available to those who can authorize a license for ownership.

We have laws in place for people without mental illness to buy guns, why can't we do the same for the mentally ill?

We can't stop illegal gun ownership, but we can make it harder for the mentally ill to get legal ownership.

I think don't that is the whole issue , not all mentally ill people have suicidal and homicidal thoughts . If this happen every person that own guns should not be allowed to have one. Most people get depress at least once their in life about something and that could be consider a mental illness . No there has to some other way. I feel the schools could set up a buddy program for kids that have Asperger's or are socially handicap . If a kid has just one friend that can made a world of difference to them and it made help them feel the whole world is not against.

 

[Reba]

Is that required by law? If not, is the document still considered a contract in court?

I don't see why not.