How many believe euthanasia animals/humans should be legal

Reba said:
Suicide, especially by people who don't have terminal diseases, causes a lot of trauma, pain, hardship and anguish for the family and friends they leave behind. It's terrible. :(
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My analogy to Hochi some threads ago and here is it seems simple on the outside. You slant your arm and gently wham (oxymoron?) the stone into the water. It hits with a quiet blast and bounces repeatedly and the ripples go on further and further out. I felt affected by his horrible story and felt truly sad and it stirred up my own recent past. I felt as you said and I didn't know the guy who hung himself.

The problem becomes what one of Grummer's links had in it against physician-assisted suicide. My problem with that one article was the focus was on the end of life not while the person is living w/out a terminal illness (if anyone wants the article as a source, I will add it). So, it didn't have the credibility I needed.

If a person exists in mental anguish for year after year after year (I learned why after she died). You know they are given drugs to put a band aid on it. They may go to therapy for years. Do they work? Sometimes. Are the the drugs worth it with everything else they do to you. The side effects that can be deadly AND the side effects are quickly flashed on the tv screen to desensitize us to them - again, Parenti, "Inventing Reality." So the industry has us saying, "Oh ALLL drugs have side effects." Yes, and we can minimize them or not take the drug and that is happening with me more and more. It isn't worth what it can do to me and to friends more often than not - pharms a big industry.

Therapy has become really weird/different. Therapists come up with new therapies du jour and they keep changing - to make a living (saw it in the computer field) or to help people? Probably both. "I'm glad you're here so I can hopefully pay off my house before I retire." I've seen therapists nod off while the patient was talking. I believe the intent is true for many in the field but there is no magic solution. Therein lies one of the problems.

We now we see those people living in horrible situations who need to be helped but they often aren't. See Hochi's example exponentially w/out my getting into details and I can refer to my stepmother who slowly and painfully died by 61 where she took steps to cause this (perhaps unconsciously but she was smart so probably very well aware of what she was doing).

I know what happens to those who remain within my own experience and from others but I am no expert. Reba, I see your pain ring out. But what about the person living in a nightmare ... Lastly, when my mom was dying of lung cancer and said, "I'm lost in the woods and can't get out. Help!!!" What would I have done if she said that during her life at a much younger age. Therapy? Lets say she was going. Drugs, to make her or others catatonic ... I've seen that. I don't have the answers. Can I say there is no quality of life? I was in a nursing home where a lady had had a stroke. She was darn catatonic. But Marcus and I persisted and I remember the first time she reached out and petted him. It was a m a z i n g . We persisted and she would be more alert now and then. But it doesn't happen with everyone.

I think I can end this by saying safely :) that while I'm not religious, it does have its purpose in life. It provides hope. It provides meaning. It provides life. I believe that captures the end of a final paper I wrote in 11th grade on Darwin. I believe in the purpose of religion. But not everyone believes. We're stuck again.

Thanks for your input as always, Reba. I agree with you. But the one thing that's missing is what about the person living in that nightmare and stuck. Your focus is on the ripples caused by if they commit suicide or in this discussion are allowed to. I don't always see an answer to their problems, so their nightmare continues but ours don't.

In peace.
 
I had a friend and co-worker kill himself and leave behind a wife and three children (one handicapped) with no husband, father or breadwinner, on top of the shock and grief they experienced. The wife found him, in their garage.

Another friend, a young grandmother, killed her two little grandchildren and then herself. Her family found them. The family was devastated. A year later, her brother killed himself.

Another friend of ours (an adult now) was a young teen when he found his older brother dead in their garage on Christmas day. That was decades ago and it still bothers him.

Two other acquaintances of mine had young sons kill themselves. It's been devastating to their families.

Another friend had her young son try to kill himself (a train was involved). He survived but has life-long physical disabilities now.

I don't see how any of these suicides or attempted suicide were beneficial to anyone.
 
Reba said:
I had a friend and co-worker kill himself and leave behind a wife and three children (one handicapped) with no husband, father or breadwinner, on top of the shock and grief they experienced. The wife found him, in their garage.

Another friend, a young grandmother, killed her two little grandchildren and then herself. Her family found them. The family was devastated. A year later, her brother killed himself.

Another friend of ours (an adult now) was a young teen when he found his older brother dead in their garage on Christmas day. That was decades ago and it still bothers him.

Two other acquaintances of mine had young sons kill themselves. It's been devastating to their families.

Another friend had her young son try to kill himself (a train was involved). He survived but has life-long physical disabilities now.

I don't see how any of these suicides or attempted suicide were beneficial to anyone.
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Sorry to hear about the deaths of your friends/acquaintances.

Suicides are not supposed to be beneficial except to the person who is doing it. They are not thinking about others but their own pain and wanting to end their pain.
 
Its a problem with no cookie cutter answer.... yes, either way someone suffers. I feel as though it should be judged on an individual basis based on immediate circumstances like the initial problem, how it effect everyone involved, and the consequences for those after.... that being said my personal opinion is there are no obstacles that can't be overcome though strong will and perseverance.
 
hurleysrus said:
Its a problem with no cookie cutter answer.... yes, either way someone suffers. I feel as though it should be judged on an individual basis based on immediate circumstances like the initial problem, how it effect everyone involved, and the consequences for those after.... that being said my personal opinion is there are no obstacles that can't be overcome though strong will and perseverance.
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Nicely said and we'll never know. But I appreciate your response. We're not walking the miles in their moccasins.
 
Reba said:
I had a friend and co-worker kill himself and leave behind a wife and three children (one handicapped) with no husband, father or breadwinner, on top of the shock and grief they experienced. The wife found him, in their garage.

Another friend, a young grandmother, killed her two little grandchildren and then herself. Her family found them. The family was devastated. A year later, her brother killed himself.

Another friend of ours (an adult now) was a young teen when he found his older brother dead in their garage on Christmas day. That was decades ago and it still bothers him.

Two other acquaintances of mine had young sons kill themselves. It's been devastating to their families.

Another friend had her young son try to kill himself (a train was involved). He survived but has life-long physical disabilities now.

I don't see how any of these suicides or attempted suicide were beneficial to anyone.
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It was beneficial to (as others stated) the person who ended his/her life. They caused Pompeii-like devastation to those they left and that pain may lessen but will never end - that's the nightmare of those who remain. Where was the help for the person who tried to end his/her life. This is rhetorical.

You bring up the final point in your last paragraph. Try to kill yourself and miss and god knows what happens when you miss. But that's also part of the issue. Again, where is the help any help? What has been cut in the industry ... mental health. That's why my partner left her job as a substance abuse counselor because people could not possibly get the help they needed in the time allotted or the time taken away. We know it worked when there was time.

I didn't create the topic to talk about suicide it just went this route with someone that it was about suicide. It is not whether you agree or disagree. I created it to talk about doctor-assisted suicide and how far it goes. Suicide is ludicrous. So work on the pain of that person. Work on other methods to help the person suffering so much that they only see one hit or miss choice.
 
i find doctor assisted suicide creepy. but not actual suicide.
(drags cigarette deeply, exhales)
 
hoichi said:
i find doctor assisted suicide creepy. but not actual suicide.
(drags cigarette deeply, exhales)
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why is that? just curioous?

some people could not handle to commit suicide themself due to being pain or too weak. BUT i dont know what to answer for it. :(
 
My Niece, a month or so ago, committed suicide. She was 44...lifelong drug addict with 5 children....My sister, (her mother) was devastated....The reasons she did this was pretty clear to me (my Niece)...and I can forgive her...but can her mother/family & children?....

My good friend, her husband went out into the field with a double-shot gun and blew his head off...the whole family was there for a BBQ....He had cancer....but I can;t understand WHY he would do something like this with his whole family there.....and them seeing it.

Surely, there are those who are not strong-minded, who can face whatever life throws at us. And many, many times, I wanted to just give-up, but by the grace of God and my faith, I struggled on. I no longer want to end my life, but know too, there will be a time when I'm in so much pain that I just want to go in peace....and feel that would be "my choice"....
 
Frisky Feline said:
why is that? just curioous?

some people could not handle to commit suicide themself due to being pain or too weak. BUT i dont know what to answer for it. :(
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Hochi, I agree and it's actually on topic. After all the stories from you (eeek, Reba (way too many experiences at her young age (really), and now Rockin') about suicide and how horrible it is for everyone, why, sir, is doctor-assisted suicide (DAS) so creepy? There is quiet DAS done at homes and hospitals. I've seen it! I helped my mom (legally)! (That exclamation is my exasperation with my knowing exactly what I was doing pressing the button and it felt horrible and I did as she asked.) There isn't the, "Oh my god, what happened here," effect with someone who attempts it and dies or attempts it and is left paralyzed for life. Your friend's mom would not have walked into her son dangling.

* * *
Frisky, yes, some people are too weak in different ways to commit suicide. Meaning, they cannot do it themselves because they are afraid or cannot do it themselves because they are literally too weak. So, they are forced to live in pain for whatever reason.

I said > 1x, I don't know what to do about that situation except get people help. Committing suicide isn't the answer but for me it's because of the risks involved. That's why the question goes back to physician-assisted. I'm not debating, I'm just trying to keep this stuff on track - as you did by asking Hochi man, what's so creepy.
 
rockin'robin said:
My Niece, a month or so ago, committed suicide. She was 44...lifelong drug addict with 5 children....My sister, (her mother) was devastated....The reasons she did this was pretty clear to me (my Niece)...and I can forgive her...but can her mother/family & children?....

My good friend, her husband went out into the field with a double-shot gun and blew his head off...the whole family was there for a BBQ....He had cancer....but I can;t understand WHY he would do something like this with his whole family there.....and them seeing it.

Surely, there are those who are not strong-minded, who can face whatever life throws at us. And many, many times, I wanted to just give-up, but by the grace of God and my faith, I struggled on. I no longer want to end my life, but know too, there will be a time when I'm in so much pain that I just want to go in peace....and feel that would be "my choice"....
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Rockin, I am sorry as I am sorry for everyone else who has listed so so many stories of suicide. I understand your answer and that's why I said it albeit briefly, so I couldn't get tossed off. That is the purpose of religion.

But then you have those of us out here and we cannot be discounted, who do not have religion. We can't argue about this or we will be shut down. I already agreed religion helps but don't forget about the rest of the population who does not have that to fall back on. We cannot get into this. I'm just reminding you folks about those of us who deal with life as best we can. Right now the answer for the non-terminally ill is bear it out or commit suicide. I loathe the latter of that sentence. There isn't another choice in all those people who committed or tried to commit suicide. We don't know if they tried therapy. We don't know if they tried pharms and we cannot guess. I do know that therapy and drugs aren't necessarily the solution because they do not necessarily work. That, I have seen.

What I see by the majority of the responses is only allow physician-assisted suicide when someone has 6 months or less. That's hospice's rule as recently as in 2008. Now, remember my dad. He was terminal for 8 years and used hospice when he needed them. But at home, the head nurse I hired freaked out as dad was dying. She was on the phone with hospice and since he died in pain, struggling to live for 2-3 hours, a physician should've helped and did not. I find that abominable and I have to live with that.

What's fascinating is Hochi man's response. Suicide is an option but do it far away. Physician-assisted suicide is not an option for the vast majority and for someone who is okay with suicide. The risks in hanging and dying are immeasurable however you try it. Do it wrong, and you may be paralyzed for life. You may be brain damaged. Do it wrong or right and look at what happened to Hussein. But do not allow a physician (my physician first killed her husband gently - the papers explained what happened eventually - then herself) to help you.

Animals are not an issue. Vet-assisted death is allowable and I will tell you all that my furry kids and I've had many were just that "my kids." Cheaper because I didn't have to save for college but they are my kids nonetheless. I'm not lowering those of you who have kids to furry friends. And my furry friends are my kids. Putting them to death with a vet is acceptable based on the responses.

Once again, I will say oy vey what a thread. I appreciate the fact that we didn't get nailed with the religious aspect. I brought it up as did Rockin and the one gentle person who chimed in that he could not respond without bringing it up but it was not a debate and there was no malice and it was short. We still have to abide by the rules. So, thank you.
 
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yes. My aunt had a pancreatic cancer. She was in a greatly pain. She said that she wanted to end it but she know she cant. I dont know if she wishes for DAS or not. They offered her to get chemotherapy etc but it s too late. She chose not to take it and be suffering for the whole 4 or 6 months. She passed away. I felt awful that she had to deal with the pain for long period. My mom tried to make her forget the pain but pain was right there. :( My aunt was an atheltic healthy freak, non smoking, and she died. Im so mad. She had four boys, and have 8 grandkids. :(
 
Frisky, cancer doesnt discrimate anyone, it can hit even the healthiest...
RR, Im VERY sorry to learn about what happened to your close relative, this is BAD...I sincerely hope you are OK..

I can see why Hoichi thinks is creepy, its like 'institutions controlling everyones lives, when deciding their deaths' - THAT IS CREEPY...

no one should have an authoriyu in white coats, or black coats to decide...colour like these are colours of power...
 
Grummer said:
Frisky, cancer doesnt discrimate anyone, it can hit even the healthiest...
RR, Im VERY sorry to learn about what happened to your close relative, this is BAD...I sincerely hope you are OK..

I can see why Hoichi thinks is creepy, its like 'institutions controlling everyones lives, when deciding their deaths' - THAT IS CREEPY...

no one should have an authoriyu in white coats, or black coats to decide...colour like these are colours of power...
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Grummer, I agree that diseases don't discriminate. But they occur for a reason and that reason may never be known. I went out to dinner with a guy - Dr. xxx - he used to be on the board (mid 70s maybe) who was on the board that did the recommendations for RDA. He said with lung cancer, if you have a specific gene in your body the odds of your getting lung cancer increase greatly. We die from environmental factors that no one is going to tell us about or figure out. But to me, that explains some of the seemingly non-discrimination clause in getting diseases. I live near a coal plant now. I lived 15 miles in NY from a nuclear power plant. When I die, no one is going to even think of that (and a host of other things). I know you are tired of reading. I'm not debating. I'm supporting why you said DAS is creepy.

Let me try expanding on your answer to Hochi man's fear. If we allow doctor-assisted suicide for non-terminally ill people, we don't know how far they'll take it. For ex., someone who cannot communicate clearly may be "interpreted" as they want to die (and we know that could happen and it may very well not be true).

In Kervorkian's case, he always had a camera recording the patient's wishes and he landed in jail for it. They were also terminal. The government has done so many things to people covertly. They've run tests on us - just look at the internet for "researchers" willing to pay money to allow testing to be done. They've sterilized people (and I needed a source for this and the answer is beyond what I even knew). I know that this is just a snapshot of what else has occurred. So I get it. Thanks for the clarification.

Hochi man, if we've misrepresented the creepiness, you'll let us know and this is pretty creepy to me.

State Secret: Thousands Secretly Sterilized - ABC News
Forced Sterilization in the United States - History of Forced Sterilization in the United States
 
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Frisky Feline said:
yes. My aunt had a pancreatic cancer. She was in a greatly pain. She said that she wanted to end it but she know she cant. I dont know if she wishes for DAS or not. They offered her to get chemotherapy etc but it s too late. She chose not to take it and be suffering for the whole 4 or 6 months. She passed away. I felt awful that she had to deal with the pain for long period. My mom tried to make her forget the pain but pain was right there. :( My aunt was an atheltic healthy freak, non smoking, and she died. Im so mad. She had four boys, and have 8 grandkids. :(
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So very sorry, FF. That's why I mentioned environmental factors. I had a friend at IBM. Her mom died of lung cancer and she was YOUNG. She had never smoked. At that time, it seemed really weird.

Some years later, I watched a television show with Bill Moyer and all the chemicals that were found in his body. Hey! I actually found a source and it's credible:

NOW with Bill Moyers. Science & Health. Ken Cook on the Pollution in People | PBS

Offtrack again but it answers some questions. I clicked on some links that may have allowed us to get tested for chemicals in our body. The link was at a dead end. (Almost like a page not found.) I did a search on what test done chemicals in body . There is no definitive test now that will tell you. That tells me a mouthful.
 
Hiya SBirn, Just because I said that there is a boomer face on the demise of the economy does not mean I believe that is what caused it. The face of things counts when history is rewritten to favor the winners.
I know what happened and who caused it. There is just not much to be done about it. Our generation would have gotten the blame no matter what it did. It is our place in history. I did not see that as a younger man but I damn sure lived it. I know I am being ambiguous. I have to leave this as that too. Sorry.
Suicide. I was the son of a very nice lady who killed herself a few months after I was born. There is no doubt that she wanted out of life. Still it was really tough on everyone. I am happy to say that her grandchildren and great grand children are doing well. As for us we did the best we could. What else can you do?
I do believe that that there is more to it than meets the eye. That the people who do it because life is no longer anything but a sea of pain and loss of dignity are different than the ones who hear the voice saying do it do it, do it, do it. Mostly I have known the latter. Unfortunately quite a number of them. All good people, with talents and skills and people who loved them and were loved by them.
I believe you did the right thing.
 
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i have a couple of reasons. the first really has always been deeply felt on a pirmal level. once its institutionalized it will obviously be both controlled and abused. the state always expands never decreases. while at first glance making it legal, seems to be the state shrinking its actually the opposite. with it will come a heavy bureaucratization of peoples end.
its a very terrifying thought.
 
There's a really good (captioned) documentary on netflix about this. It's called How to Die in Oregon. I've always been a supporter and I think they should make this more common. To me I believe that if you're strongly against suicide, you wouldn't personally sign up for this. It's a personal decision, if you decide to take advantage of this method of treatment. The documentary interviewed people who saw their spouse die naturally and was not allowed to have assisted suicide, it interviewed people who were denied chemo but offered suicide (they ultimately won chemo treatment but died anyway)...

You should know there are VERY strict rules for this assisted suicide. You must be terminal within 6 months. You must ask twice for this treatment so many days apart. You must take the drugs yourself. I think it allows people to die with dignity, if they choose this method. I can't say that I'd pick it myself in that situation, but I support the option.

I watched my best friends mom die a year ago and helped with her care a few times a week. She was in a huge amount of pain and the drugs, although very very high doses, didn't help. The cancer was in her brain and she was mean and didn't know what was going on. Her volunteers had to bathe her and change her and help her use the toilet. It's hard to swallow your pride.... My grandma used to cry when she had to be changed after her stroke.

There's another way to look at physician assisted suicide in that it's not really suicide... It's avoiding lots of physical pain and that end of life where you aren't yourself. I NEVER think it should be used for psychological duress... That can turn itself around. My family friend tried suicide a few times early on in her treatment and now she's much more stable and happy. Psych isn't terminal.
 
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