Why can't we have Deaf Ed like this in the US?

[BecLak]

Wirelessly posted

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO HAVE SPEECH AND TO UTILIZE SPOKEN LANGUAGE?!! Why?! Let deaf kids be deaf!!!

That's how I really feel. Whew. Got that off my chest.

 

[BecLak]

Wirelessly posted

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO HAVE SPEECH AND TO UTILIZE SPOKEN LANGUAGE?!! Why?! Let deaf kids be deaf!!!

That's how I really feel. Whew. Got that off my chest.

Amen!!!!! Speech / spoken language not greatest thing on earth! We not dead without it! Deafies don't force ASL on hearies, why they force Oh-eternally-superior-to-everything-English on us?!?!?!?

 

[CSign]

It did not say "proficient". It said "competent". There is a difference..

Proficient is a synonym of competent.

competent
Parts of Speech:*adjective
Definition:*able
Synonyms:*adapted, adequate, all around, appropriate, au fait, being pistol,capable, clever, complete, crisp, decent, dynamite, efficient, endowed, enough, equal, fireball, fit, fool, good, know ins and outs, know one's business, know one's stuff, know the answers, know the ropes, know the score, no slouch, on the ball, paid one's dues, pertinent, polished, proficient, qualified, satisfactory, savvy, skilled, sufficient, suitable, there, up to it, up to snuff, up to speed, wicked*
able
Parts of Speech:*adjective
Definition:*capable of performing; having an innate capacity
Synonyms:*adept, adequate, adroit, agile, alert, apt, bright, capable, competent, cunning, deft, dexterous, easy, effortless, endowed, equipped, facile, fitted, good, intelligent, knowing, powerful, ready, smart, strong, worthy
adequate

Dictionary

 

[Jiro]

Proficient is a synonym of competent.

competent
Parts of Speech:*adjective
Definition:*able
Synonyms:*adapted, adequate, all around, appropriate, au fait, being pistol,capable, clever, complete, crisp, decent, dynamite, efficient, endowed, enough, equal, fireball, fit, fool, good, know ins and outs, know one's business, know one's stuff, know the answers, know the ropes, know the score, no slouch, on the ball, paid one's dues, pertinent, polished, proficient, qualified, satisfactory, savvy, skilled, sufficient, suitable, there, up to it, up to snuff, up to speed, wicked*
able
Parts of Speech:*adjective
Definition:*capable of performing; having an innate capacity
Synonyms:*adept, adequate, adroit, agile, alert, apt, bright, capable, competent, cunning, deft, dexterous, easy, effortless, endowed, equipped, facile, fitted, good, intelligent, knowing, powerful, ready, smart, strong, worthy
adequate

Dictionary

if "competent" and "proficient" both means the same thing... then why bother with redundancy?

simple - both words are completely different from each other depending on context.

"Competent" is used to describe one's mental capacity.
"Proficient" is used to describe one's expertise/experience/skill/level.

Why is it that court used the word "competence" instead of "proficient" to judge whether or not if the defendant is competent enough to stand trial?

 

[Grummer]

wrong post in error. competence is functioning, proficiency is how skilled. however, interestingly I have seen 'incompetent' used to refer to 'not skilled enough'...

 

[jillio]

Proficient is a synonym of competent.

competent
Parts of Speech:*adjective
Definition:*able
Synonyms:*adapted, adequate, all around, appropriate, au fait, being pistol,capable, clever, complete, crisp, decent, dynamite, efficient, endowed, enough, equal, fireball, fit, fool, good, know ins and outs, know one's business, know one's stuff, know the answers, know the ropes, know the score, no slouch, on the ball, paid one's dues, pertinent, polished, proficient, qualified, satisfactory, savvy, skilled, sufficient, suitable, there, up to it, up to snuff, up to speed, wicked*
able
Parts of Speech:*adjective
Definition:*capable of performing; having an innate capacity
Synonyms:*adept, adequate, adroit, agile, alert, apt, bright, capable, competent, cunning, deft, dexterous, easy, effortless, endowed, equipped, facile, fitted, good, intelligent, knowing, powerful, ready, smart, strong, worthy
adequate

Dictionary

Not in the case of language development and usage, it is not. One can be competent, and not have reached the level of proficiency. One can be proficient and not have reached the level of fluency. You are again attempting to make broad generalizations that are not applicable to the topic, and are based on your understanding of the English language. There are different types of definitions. Contextual and conceptual seem to be two of which you choose to ignore.

But, this is a good demonstration of why interpreters need to be well qualified in determining meaning through various cues.

 

[jillio]

wrong post in error. competence is functioning, proficiency is how skilled. however, interestingly I have seen 'incompetent' used to refer to 'not skilled enough'...

Thank you. I thought we all understood the difference, as we were discussing language usage in depth.

 

[jillio]

if "competent" and "proficient" both means the same thing... then why bother with redundancy?

simple - both words are completely different from each other depending on context.

"Competent" is used to describe one's mental capacity.
"Proficient" is used to describe one's expertise/experience/skill/level.

Why is it that court used the word "competence" instead of "proficient" to judge whether or not if the defendant is competent enough to stand trial?

Exactly. Dictionary definitions are not the only ways to determine meaning. Anyone proficient in the English language knows that.

 

[Bottesini]

Thank you. I thought we all understood the difference, as we were discussing language usage in depth.

Exactly. Dictionary definitions are not the only ways to determine meaning. Anyone proficient in the English language knows that.

But why are you saying this, when you are often talking about things like language dysfunction, due to wrong teaching methods?

You should assume we are not, but still are interested.

 

[jillio]

But why are you saying this, when you are often talking about things like language dysfunction, due to wrong teaching methods?

You should assume we are not, but still are interested.

Because that was not addressed in reference to the deaf posters. The deaf posters are proficient at determining contextual and conceptual meaning. as is evidenced by their posts. They use it far more than they do dictionary definitions.

 

[Beowulf]

Because that was not addressed in reference to the deaf posters. The deaf posters are proficient at determining contextual and conceptual meaning. as is evidenced by their posts. They use it far more than they do dictionary definitions.

Now that's a horse of a different color.

 

[deafdyke]

So in other words, we don't want a Clarke/Mary Hare style education where while ASL isn't demonized, it's still not used in the classroom. Obviously.
But why not something like they do in bilingal spoken language programs.....The one my friend went to as a kid, things were taught in French in the morning and then English in the afternoon. I think that might be a good compromise.....but with ASL in the morning and then English in the afternoon.....and I mean I think that this could be used mostly early on, and then transistion to ASL for academics, since oral kids start having issues around fourth grade.

 

[deafdyke]

As well as a track for hoh kids and orally strong kids where they can take academic classes in ASL but ALSO be able to take advantage of speech classes if wanted/needed. We need to make oral training Deaf Ed friendly. Like reclaim oralism, as a good skill....but not a VITAL skill to have. We shouldn't make them into fake "hearing impaired" kids.....but rather deaf and hoh kids who happen to have decent oral skills. It's true....many of us won't be able to master spoken English in the way that a native speaker of English can. It's exactly like the way my friends who speak Spanish or Slovak or French can speak English very well, but not as a native speaker.

 

[deafbajagal]

I'm sorry but oral training will never be deaf friendly any more than me being spider-friendly. Lol

 

[jillio]

So in other words, we don't want a Clarke/Mary Hare style education where while ASL isn't demonized, it's still not used in the classroom. Obviously.
But why not something like they do in bilingal spoken language programs.....The one my friend went to as a kid, things were taught in French in the morning and then English in the afternoon. I think that might be a good compromise.....but with ASL in the morning and then English in the afternoon.....and I mean I think that this could be used mostly early on, and then transistion to ASL for academics, since oral kids start having issues around fourth grade.

They start having issues around grade four as a cummulative effect of not having proper language input birth to grade 4. The problems don't happen in grade 4; they just get so overwhelming that they can't be ignored any more at that point.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

So in other words, we don't want a Clarke/Mary Hare style education where while ASL isn't demonized, it's still not used in the classroom. Obviously.
But why not something like they do in bilingal spoken language programs.....The one my friend went to as a kid, things were taught in French in the morning and then English in the afternoon. I think that might be a good compromise.....but with ASL in the morning and then English in the afternoon.....and I mean I think that this could be used mostly early on, and then transistion to ASL for academics, since oral kids start having issues around fourth grade.

i think this is a lovely idea. I believe that TLC is doing something similar, but many people HATE the idea.

 

[jillio]

It's a band aid. It still doesn't address the issues at their base.

 

[deafdyke]

It's a band aid. It still doesn't address the issues at their base.

Which is that most dhh kids approach English As A Second Language right?

 

[deafdyke]

They start having issues around grade four as a cummulative effect of not having proper language input birth to grade 4. The problems don't happen in grade 4; they just get so overwhelming that they can't be ignored any more at that point.

So in other words, most of them still have significent oral delays, it's just that they're not that extreme that would warrent them being placed in a Deaf School right? Heck even hoh kids deal with those delays right?

 

[Buffalo]

Agreed, again. The more we focus on catering to the needs of the parents that insist on spoken language skills as a part of the curriculum, the weaker the educational environment becomes.

Exactly! That's why my oral elementary school was few grades behind. If the child don't understand, then use easier words - so on until the education became real bad.