This is a frightening situation in my area

God forbid we make a value judgement about Hitler, Idi Amin, Charles Manson, Liberia's Charles Taylor, etc., etc. We might just possibly be wrong about those poor misunderstood creatures.
 
Beach girl said:
God forbid we make a value judgement about Hitler, Idi Amin, Charles Manson, Liberia's Charles Taylor, etc., etc. We might just possibly be wrong about those poor misunderstood creatures.
Click to expand...

Well, they were all madmen with a taste for blood.
 
Beach girl said:
God forbid we make a value judgement about Hitler, Idi Amin, Charles Manson, Liberia's Charles Taylor, etc., etc. We might just possibly be wrong about those poor misunderstood creatures.
Click to expand...

Hey, if you want to make value judgements against individuals, it is your perogative. I prefer to stick to judging the behaviors. I subscribe to a piece of literature that warns against passing judgement on the individual.:cool2: I think many here claim to subscribe to the same text, but convieniently forget that part.
 
Banjo said:
Well, they were all madmen with a taste for blood.
Click to expand...

Because they were inherently evil and have no value as humans...or because they were mentally ill and that was the main influence for their behavior and their thought processes?

In admitting that they were madmen, you have removed the value judgement of them as humans, and placed it on their behavior.
 
jillio said:
Hey, if you want to make value judgements against individuals, it is your perogative. I prefer to stick to judging the behaviors. I subscribe to a piece of literature that warns against passing judgement on the individual.:cool2: I think many here claim to subscribe to the same text, but convieniently forget that part.
Click to expand...
In other words, hate the behavior and not the individual.

I try to do this, but there are some people who are beyond redemption.
 
jillio said:
Because they were inherently evil and have no value as humans...or because they were mentally ill and that was the main influence for their behavior and their thought processes?

In admitting that they were madmen, you have removed the value judgement of them as humans, and placed it on their behavior.
Click to expand...

People being inherently evil is rare if you ask me, but I believe it can occur once in a blue moon. People often paint a picture of these well-documented historical figures as if they were not human beings. To err is human, although their actions can be interpreted in any manner one would want to. Regardless, their actions were horrific and can be easily seen as being evil monsters instead of human beings.

I believe people are capable of anything, mentally ill or not. Regarding Manson, I can believe he was mentally ill, and the same goes for his followers. Now, for Adolf Hitler, well... he knew what he was doing. Especially when he was able to gather such a massive amount of support from his people and allies.

I don't want to go off topic any further.
 
Glenn said:
In other words, hate the behavior and not the individual.

I try to do this, but there are some people who are beyond redemption.
Click to expand...

Exactly. I believe that there are some behaviors beyond redemption, and the individual is often so sick that release into society at any point in the future is unwise and not recommended. But it still is not my place to determine the value of their humanity. After all, even the worst of the worst have contributed some good to society. Would we all be so aware, for example, of the dangers of ethnocentrism and the warning signs of danger of this thinking if it weren't for Hitler? Tragic as it was, there was still a lesson learned for society in general that benefits us today.

Dehumanization is a scary thing. That is exactly what Hitler did. As a result, it is dangerous for us to dehumanize even a single person. The mindset is too destructive.
 
Banjo said:
People being inherently evil is rare if you ask me, but I believe it can occur once in a blue moon. People often paint a picture of these well-documented historical figures as if they were not human beings. To err is human, although their actions can be interpreted in any manner one would want to. Regardless, their actions were horrific and can be easily seen as being evil monsters instead of human beings.

I believe people are capable of anything, mentally ill or not. Regarding Manson, I can believe he was mentally ill, and the same goes for his followers. Now, for Adolf Hitler, well... he knew what he was doing. Especially when he was able to gather such a massive amount of support from his people and allies.

I don't want to go off topic any further.
Click to expand...

Actually, isn't off topic. And Hitler may have been a plotter and a planner, but then also was Jim Jones...another madman. And Hitler was suffering from syphlittic brain disease...a particular form of mental illness we don't see much any more. And, personally, I believe there were some other diagnoses at play there, too.

Agreed on the inherent evil.
 
jillio said:
Actually, isn't off topic. And Hitler may have been a plotter and a planner, but then also was Jim Jones...another madman. And Hitler was suffering from syphlittic brain disease...a particular form of mental illness we don't see much any more. And, personally, I believe there were some other diagnoses at play there, too.

Agreed on the inherent evil.
Click to expand...

I have heard of Adolf Hitler having syphilis and that he had picked it up from some Jewish prostitute. Although I can't say if there's any truth to that because I don't know. I also heard that he could had Parkinson's or something like that. Jim Jones was a madman too as well, for getting all these people to drink the poisoned Kool-Aid.
 
Banjo said:
I have heard of Adolf Hitler having syphilis and that he had picked it up from some Jewish prostitute. Although I can't say if there's any truth to that because I don't know. I also heard that he could had Parkinson's or something like that. Jim Jones was a madman too as well, for getting all these people to drink the poisoned Kool-Aid.
Click to expand...

It is accepted in some academic circles that Hitler indeed had untreated syphillis based on a recreation of behavior and thought disturbances and the patterns in the escalation. But, even if he did not have syphillis, there is no doubt that he was a disturbed and mentally ill man.
 
jillio said:
It is accepted in some academic circles that Hitler indeed had untreated syphillis based on a recreation of behavior and thought disturbances and the patterns in the escalation. But, even if he did not have syphillis, there is no doubt that he was a disturbed and mentally ill man.
Click to expand...

It's a topic not many are able to come to a complete agreement on.

It's easy to come to the conclusion that Hitler was mentally ill based on his actions, however it doesn't confirm that he was mentally ill. From what I know, there is no consensus among historians on Hitler having a mental illness. Although it's possible that he was mentally ill before the end of the war due to the heavy drug use and Parkinson's disease. Prior to the war, he had written books and gave speeches around Europe rallying millions and millions of supporters for his cause. It's also common knowledge that Hitler was not a compulsive liar and never held back his opinions. He knew what he wanted and what he was doing.

I don't believe people will ever be able to confirm that he was in fact, mentally ill, especially with how primitive and undeveloped the science of psychology was back in these days. People can speculate all they want to, it's not going to change anything for the time being.
 
Banjo said:
It's a topic not many are able to come to a complete agreement on.

It's easy to come to the conclusion that Hitler was mentally ill based on his actions, however it doesn't confirm that he was mentally ill. From what I know, there is no consensus among historians on Hitler having a mental illness. Although it's possible that he was mentally ill before the end of the war due to the heavy drug use and Parkinson's disease. Prior to the war, he had written books and gave speeches around Europe rallying millions and millions of supporters for his cause. It's also common knowledge that Hitler was not a compulsive liar and never held back his opinions. He knew what he wanted and what he was doing.

I don't believe people will ever be able to confirm that he was in fact, mentally ill, especially with how primitive and undeveloped the science of psychology was back in these days. People can speculate all they want to, it's not going to change anything for the time being.
Click to expand...

True, we can't go back in time, and things were a bit more primitive then. Personally, I think that is why he had such an ability to influence. I'm not certain that at the beginning of his career, he actually suffered from what is generally accepted as a mental disorder. But I do, from what I know, firmly believe that there was a long standing personality disorder at play.

Correct. It doesn't change a thing.

This is an interesting twist in the discussion since I am currently reading Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning.
 
The point is, mentally ill or not, intrinsically evil or not, there are some people who do very bad things, and individuals, communities, societies, are right to take whatever steps they can to protect themselves from these types. To do that, whenever it's possible, it's only just that a given community be warned that such a person is on the loose near them. They don't have to be warned by name, necessarily. But it's not asking too much for the police to be able to warn a neighborhood "There is a 6'2, 170 lb., black male, considered violent, escapee from XYZ institution, possibly in your neighborhood. Lock your doors, be alert to your surroundings, etc., etc."

Our Homeowners' Association puts out e-mails more or less to that effect all the time. There are some guys who occasionally take a van around the neighborhood, claiming to be "tree cutters" but who are believed to be casing homes for possible burglaries, as one example. We had a rash of things being stolen from unlocked cars parked outside; we got several e-mails from the police warning us about that and asking us to be on the lookout for anyone seen going into cars.

Last year there was a case of a man seen approaching two school-girls and asking them questions that made them uncomfortable; the girls ran. This was reported within half an hour after it happened, and the guy was picked up.

All of that is well within bounds for neighborhood protection. I don't see why this case should be any different. People deserve to know what's going on near them.
 
Beach girl said:
The point is, mentally ill or not, intrinsically evil or not, there are some people who do very bad things, and individuals, communities, societies, are right to take whatever steps they can to protect themselves from these types. To do that, whenever it's possible, it's only just that a given community be warned that such a person is on the loose near them. They don't have to be warned by name, necessarily. But it's not asking too much for the police to be able to warn a neighborhood "There is a 6'2, 170 lb., black male, considered violent, escapee from XYZ institution, possibly in your neighborhood. Lock your doors, be alert to your surroundings, etc., etc."

Our Homeowners' Association puts out e-mails more or less to that effect all the time. There are some guys who occasionally take a van around the neighborhood, claiming to be "tree cutters" but who are believed to be casing homes for possible burglaries, as one example. We had a rash of things being stolen from unlocked cars parked outside; we got several e-mails from the police warning us about that and asking us to be on the lookout for anyone seen going into cars.

Last year there was a case of a man seen approaching two school-girls and asking them questions that made them uncomfortable; the girls ran. This was reported within half an hour after it happened, and the guy was picked up.

All of that is well within bounds for neighborhood protection. I don't see why this case should be any different. People deserve to know what's going on near them.
Click to expand...
Exactly.

We got the same email warnings about door-to-door security system sales people and window glass repair companies that were scams.

The police and sheriff's department make automated reverse 911 calls to us when someone is missing or there is a community wide emergency.

I believe places like Palmetto should be obligated to inform the police immediately when something happens at their center. They can give out identifying information without revealing someone's personal records. They should also have a better security system in place if they want to stay in residential neighborhoods.
 
Also, Murphy said he wants facility administrators to notify law enforcement immediately when people walk off or escape, and to provide them with the individual's physical description.
Click to expand...

Hey, how 'bout that! My crystal ball was in A#1 working condition!!
 
Beach girl said:
The point is, mentally ill or not, intrinsically evil or not, there are some people who do very bad things, and individuals, communities, societies, are right to take whatever steps they can to protect themselves from these types. To do that, whenever it's possible, it's only just that a given community be warned that such a person is on the loose near them. They don't have to be warned by name, necessarily. But it's not asking too much for the police to be able to warn a neighborhood "There is a 6'2, 170 lb., black male, considered violent, escapee from XYZ institution, possibly in your neighborhood. Lock your doors, be alert to your surroundings, etc., etc."

Our Homeowners' Association puts out e-mails more or less to that effect all the time. There are some guys who occasionally take a van around the neighborhood, claiming to be "tree cutters" but who are believed to be casing homes for possible burglaries, as one example. We had a rash of things being stolen from unlocked cars parked outside; we got several e-mails from the police warning us about that and asking us to be on the lookout for anyone seen going into cars.

Last year there was a case of a man seen approaching two school-girls and asking them questions that made them uncomfortable; the girls ran. This was reported within half an hour after it happened, and the guy was picked up.

All of that is well within bounds for neighborhood protection. I don't see why this case should be any different. People deserve to know what's going on near them.
Click to expand...

What you are asking violates laws and ethics, as has been explained numerous times.

You are also trying to lump too many issues into one category. Can't be done. Dichotmous thinking does not apply here.
 
Back
Top