Poll: Should this country change in a specific sense?

[posts from hell]

Yeah and most of them have professional people on staff, too, right? makes ya wonder, huh?

Mmmm...

In Norway, regarding Sicko by Michael Moore, they had a guy who killed with a chain saw.

Now he works for the forest service using a chain saw in Norway..

 

[TXgolfer]

I don't think it should be about rehabilitation....but about punishment.

That being said, many prisions offer programs for education and training and many have job oportunities inside. You can't make the prisioners learn. All you can do is provide an option. And there is no law that says a prisioner can't take corespondence classes. Prisioners receive and send mail. Prision ministries are also available to help as is counseling. The prisioner just has to be willing to accept it.

 

[posts from hell]

I don't think it should be about rehabilitation....but about punishment.

That being said, many prisions offer programs for education and training and many have job oportunities inside. You can't make the prisioners learn. All you can do is provide an option. And there is no law that says a prisioner can't take corespondence classes. Prisioners receive and send mail. Prision ministries are also available to help as is counseling. The prisioner just has to be willing to accept it.

I understand where youre coming from -
rehabilitation as punishment?

Why does Norway have one of the lowest murder rate and the USA has four-five times as much killings as Norway. Yet Norway longest sentence (of ANY sorts) is 21 years, and they never killed anyone as a punishment..

 

[shel90]

LOL, funny little thing arent you?

Lets see - "Negative reinforcement serves to increase a behavior." A bunch of "intelligent mumbo jumbo" there. Care to make it clear? What behavior?

I'll go more in depth after we're clear on what "Negative Reinforcement" means.

That way we can see, crystal clearly, that I do not want to increase criminal behavior...

Like taking away a toy is negative reinforcement and it could increase the undesired behavior. I have taken applied behavior analysis courses and certified in it. It can be confusing at times.

 

[posts from hell]

Like taking away a toy is negative reinforcement and it could increase the undesired behavior. I have taken applied behavior analysis courses and certified in it. It can be confusing at times.

WAIT WAIT WAIT... according to Jillio, that is punishment.

 

[jillio]

looks like we've got an interesting debate about psychology in this thread...

let us ask ourselves.... Why is Psychology considered the lesser of the sciences? It is the least fundamental, but is it not the most relevant to our day to day lives?

It is indeed the most relevent....it involves the study of behavior and thought.

However, I am going to disagree on the "lesser science" part. In the past, psychology was often called a "psuedo science". However, since most studies and experimentation are now done using the scientific method, psychology has become just as supportable as any other science that uses the scientific method...and moreso than those who don't. However, you are correct that the majority of people don't understand this, and seem to think that psychology is nothing more than a guessing game.

 

[shel90]

WAIT WAIT WAIT... according to Jillio, that is punishment.

Punishment is spanking, putting the child in time out. I had notes from my class that has a very basic outline of what it all means. Too bad that I threw them away. Ugh...

 

[jillio]

Thx for the translate.....I agree, once the time is served they should get a fair shake. Many of my employees had trouble before they worked for me.

While that is what the video shows, that is not really a concept of negative reinforcement. It is a societal and environmental consequence. Negative reinforcement is used intentionally to increase a behavior. What the video is talking about is nothing more than consequence. There is nothing intentional and directive about it.

 

[jillio]

Punishment is spanking, putting the child in time out. I had notes from my class that has a very basic outline of what it all means. Too bad that I threw them away. Ugh...

You are correct in your assessment, shel. PFH still doesn't grasp the concept fully.

 

[posts from hell]

While that is what the video shows, that is not really a concept of negative reinforcement. It is a societal and environmental consequence. Negative reinforcement is used intentionally to increase a behavior. What the video is talking about is nothing more than consequence. There is nothing intentional and directive about it.

Oh, cool. Finally we're getting somewhere..

Now since I asked you to help me out here, and you refuse.

That says a lot about your character - "I am better than you."

 

[jillio]

I don't think it should be about rehabilitation....but about punishment.

That being said, many prisions offer programs for education and training and many have job oportunities inside. You can't make the prisioners learn. All you can do is provide an option. And there is no law that says a prisioner can't take corespondence classes. Prisioners receive and send mail. Prision ministries are also available to help as is counseling. The prisioner just has to be willing to accept it.

I understand that line of thought...you aren't alone in that. But there are any number of studies that show that punishment is the least effective way to change behavior. Many of these have been done specifically on penal systems. If we are truly concerned about recidivism, the way to decrease it is not through the use of punishment.

Of course, when talking about criminal behavior, we also have to consider that an element of punishment be included. It just can't be the whole foundation and be effective.

 

[Glenn]

...And the company i respect for this, and probably the only pro of this company i know of - which is walmart. they hire murderers. so, when you're in a walmart, you see the workers, you have no idea what their background is, but in a nutshell you accept them... without judging.

Awesome. I'm going to apply.

 

[jillio]

Awesome. I'm going to apply.

I'd wait until I had a bit more information from a credible source if I were you.

 

[shel90]

I understand that line of thought...you aren't alone in that. But there are any number of studies that show that punishment is the least effective way to change behavior. Many of these have been done specifically on penal systems. If we are truly concerned about recidivism, the way to decrease it is not through the use of punishment.

Of course, when talking about criminal behavior, we also have to consider that an element of punishment be included. It just can't be the whole foundation and be effective.

I think it starts out when a person is young. If someone has a mental illness, it would be hard to change their behaviors whether it would be through negative or positive reinforcement or punishment.

 

[jillio]

PFH, isn't the problem with today's prison is that they aren't rehabilatative places anymore. I watched a one hour show the other night on NG about Pelican Bay, a prison in CA wherein those placed there are there for the sole purpose of being worse or the same as when they went in. Of course, this is a special place where they are locked up 22 1/2 hrs a day...these are hard core guys.

This extreme example aside, do you think most prisons are good at rehabilitating?

I know you addressed this to PFH, but wanted to take a moment to say that you are correct. If one follows the correlations, when rehabilitation goes down, recidivism goes up.

 

[jillio]

I think it starts out when a person is young. If someone has a mental illness, it would be hard to change their behaviors whether it would be through negative or positive reinforcement or punishment.

This is true. For a child, for instance, with a conduct disorder, treatments for the disorder has to be used, and operant conditioning has to be modified to fit that particular case.

 

[Glenn]

I understand that line of thought...you aren't alone in that. But there are any number of studies that show that punishment is the least effective way to change behavior. Many of these have been done specifically on penal systems. If we are truly concerned about recidivism, the way to decrease it is not through the use of punishment.

Of course, when talking about criminal behavior, we also have to consider that an element of punishment be included. It just can't be the whole foundation and be effective.

Punishment has been used since the beginning of history. I don't think we will get away from it that easily. It's not the nature of the masses to be that smart.

 

[jillio]

Punishment has been used since the beginning of history. I don't think we will get away from it that easily. It's not the nature of the masses to be that smart.

Yes, it has. And it has effectively insured that we have prisons full of people who continue to exhibit the same behavior, because rehabilitation has not addressed the issue of teaching them another way. One cannot just say, "Change your behavior." We have to offer alternative behaviors.

I am not in favor of doing away with punishment all together. It has its place. I'm just saying that when our penal system is fundamentally a system that punishes, we end up with the consequences we are looking at today. High recidivism rates.

 

[Glenn]

Yes, it has. And it has effectively insured that we have prisons full of people who continue to exhibit the same behavior, because rehabilitation has not addressed the issue of teaching them another way. One cannot just say, "Change your behavior." We have to offer alternative behaviors.

I am not in favor of doing away with punishment all together. It has its place. I'm just saying that when our penal system is fundamentally a system that punishes, we end up with the consequences we are looking at today. High recidivism rates.

I do understand you perfectly. Prisons as they are traditionally known might be a part of how the issue is dealt with, but certainly not all of it or most of it.

I'd like to revisit society in a thousand years just to see if we've gotten better at being human. But I doubt I'd understand any of it...the difference would be too great from what I know.

 

[jillio]

I do understand you perfectly. Prisons as they are traditionally known might be a part of how the issue is dealt with, but certainly not all of it or most of it.

I'd like to revisit society in a thousand years just to see if we've gotten better at being human. But I doubt I'd understand any of it...the difference would be too great from what I know.

Oh, yes! In a thousand years the changes would be so great that they would be difficult to understand!

I would like to think that, as people, we become more humanitarian with the passage of time. However, sometimes I see things that make me wonder if I am living in a dream world!