Is there a such thing as "true bilingualism"?

faire_jour said:
Where did I say the answers wheren't good enough? It's like you are looking for a reason to argue with me, and unable to find one, you make one up!
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Not making it up....never said that you said that. The key word here is "seems"

Big difference.

Many of us responded answering this question but yet, it seems like it is not good enough
 
shel90 said:
There will always be people who are against CIs. Nothing is going to change their minds.

If people support ASL only without speech therapy, is that such a bad thing? There are many deaf people out there who have no speech skills and are doing fine. Some arent doing fine and those are the ones who ususally have poor English writing skills. That is the key that many of us are mostly concerned with first. Being literate.
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honestly, I don't know where she got the idea about giving up speech and such everyday??? She was referring to Alldeaf.. and I'm assuming she was taking our experiences and twisting as if we were telling her that it doesn't work. But really, she doesn't understand the point we were trying to make.
 
shel90 said:
There will always be people who are against CIs. Nothing is going to change their minds.

If people support ASL only without speech therapy, is that such a bad thing? There are many deaf people out there who have no speech skills and are doing fine. Some arent doing fine and those are the ones who ususally have poor English writing skills. That is the key that many of us are mostly concerned with first. Being literate.
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I said that I believe that literacy is most important, overall.

Is ASL only ok? That is totally up to the parents, and then later, the kids. I think you have to follow your child's lead, but clearly, that is not the choice I would make. I will answer completly honestly, and I will totally get attacked for it, but here goes:

It is totally up to the parents, and I do have good Deaf friends who are raising their children completly without amplification and any sort of speech or spoken language exposure. But, my question is, why? Why not give your child access to sound? Why not give them some exposure and skills in the dominate language? Why not give them MORE tools and skills in their toolbox?

This is totally seperate from the AV-CI discussion. I don't expect that, I mean HA's and some speech leading to "oral skills".
 
faire_jour said:
I said that I believe that literacy is most important, overall.

Is ASL only ok? That is totally up to the parents, and then later, the kids. I think you have to follow your child's lead, but clearly, that is not the choice I would make. I will answer completly honestly, and I will totally get attacked for it, but here goes:

It is totally up to the parents, and I do have good Deaf friends who are raising their children completly without amplification and any sort of speech or spoken language exposure. But, my question is, why? Why not give your child access to sound? Why not give them some exposure and skills in the dominate language? Why not give them MORE tools and skills in their toolbox?

This is totally seperate from the AV-CI discussion. I don't expect that, I mean HA's and some speech leading to "oral skills".
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It is like asking hearing parents of hearing kids why they are raising their kids without ASL. That's an audist point of view. Sorry to be blunt here.
 
faire_jour said:
I went to a meeting today about AV and spoken language. The conversation rolled around to changes at our state school for the deaf. We have a two track option. You can do auditory-oral OR ASL-English. I asked "Well, what if you want both?" My answer was, in essence, "too bad!" I was told that we have to choose a dominant, primary language.

I spoke with a teacher of the Deaf who was trained at Gallaudet and she boiled it down to 2 choices.

As an adult, Miss Kat can function as a HOH person who lives and functions in the hearing world, but knows ASL and gets support from the Deaf community

OR

She can be raised with ASL as her first language. She would be Deaf and live in the Deaf world. She would use her "oral skills" (not fluent spoken language) to interact with hearing people, perhaps even all day at work, but at the end of the day, she would always return to the Deaf world.

This would be the decision we have to make, and we would proceed on whichever path we choose.

So, I'm asking, is there no such thing as true bilingualism? Can she really never be truly comfortable in both worlds and languages?
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They are talking about educational philosophy....meaning what method will be used to educate a child. In other words, educational lessons will be taught via auditory and verbally with no sign language (oral method) or in sign language (manual method). That is why you have to chose a dominant and primary language (she will be taught primarily in English or in ASL/English).



faire_jour said:
But deaf kids learn very differently than hearing kids. It isn't the same.
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How are those deaf children learning very differently than hearing kids? Deaf children have the same brains as that of their hearing peers. Is it possible that the educational establishment wants deaf children to learn differently?

faire_jour said:
Where the hell did I say anything like that?? The very OPPOSITE is true. I want my child to be bilingual and the whole world is against that. Oral supporters think spoken language is enough and people here think ASL is enough.

Why can't a child need and use both?
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Good that you want your child to be bilingual. What is stopping you?

Correction.....ASL users encourage spoken language only if it would benefit the child (rather than forcing the child to learn how to listen and speak when it is clearly not beneficial and waste of educational time). Oral establishment actually prohibits any type of sign language (regardless if it would benefit the oral deaf child).

If your child is in ASL-English method, they cannot deny your child's right to speech therapy. Due to the fact that she will be exposed to both ASL and English, she will be bilingual. I suspect if your child is in AV, they will not expose her to ASL, therefore, she would not be bilingual as she will know English only.
 
Lighthouse77 said:
honestly, I don't know where she got the idea about giving up speech and such everyday??? She was referring to Alldeaf.. and I'm assuming she was taking our experiences and twisting as if we were telling her that it doesn't work. But really, she doesn't understand the point we were trying to make.
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No, I think a very few people here support oral first. I think a small number support what I would call "true bilingualism" (ASL and spoken language as equal in emphasis and importance). But then the vast majority believe in ASL first, bi-bi with written language, and for some, "oral skills"- including basic, everyday words and lipreading some. And then there are some who are ASL only and against all intervention, therapy, amplification and spoken language.
 
shel90 said:
It is like asking hearing parents of hearing kids why they are raising their kids without ASL. That's an audist point of view. Sorry to be blunt here.
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I would demand the same answer from the hearing parent. I would ask them why they aren't giving their child all the tools.

I think it is a fair question for both sides.
 
faire_jour said:
I would demand the same answer from the hearing parent. I would ask them why they aren't giving their child all the tools.

I think it is a fair question for both sides.
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Then I would demand answers from hearing parents to why they arent exposing their hearing kids to ASL.

Do you see what you are saying?

Deaf people who have hearing kids expose their hearing kids to both so hearing parents of deaf children should too.

Deaf parents of deaf children are like hearing parents of hearing children...a whole different category.

The key word here is full access to language, communication and information and deaf children from hearing parents are the group less likely to have that than the other groups.
 
shel90 said:
Then I would demand answers from hearing parents to why they arent exposing their hearing kids to ASL.

Do you see what you are saying?

Deaf people who have hearing kids expose their hearing kids to both so hearing parents of deaf children should too.

Deaf parents of deaf children are like hearing parents of hearing children...a whole different category.

The key word here is full access to language, communication and information and deaf children from hearing parents are the group less likely to have that than the other groups.
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I think that parents have a duty to prepare their child for the majority language and culture. If I had a Chinese friend who solely spoke Mandrin and home, sent their child to a Mandrin school, was only involved in the local Chinese community, and disallowed all American TV and culture? I would be concerned. Yes, the children have language and communication, but what happens when they enter the "mainstream American" world? They won't have the skills they need.
 
shel90 said:
It is like asking hearing parents of hearing kids why they are raising their kids without ASL. That's an audist point of view. Sorry to be blunt here.
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And I don't think it is audist. That would mean that I thought listening and speaking is better than ASL-Deafness. I insist that they are equal.
 
faire_jour said:
And I don't think it is audist. That would mean that I thought listening and speaking is better than ASL-Deafness. I insist that they are equal.
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Then why ask that question of deaf parents with deaf kids? They are providing their children to full access to language, communication and information just like hearing parents with hearing children do.

If they are criticized for doing what they do, then that means audism is being imposed on them.

The primary focus should be on for every deaf child to have full access to language, communication and information which many of us didnt have growing up.
 
faire_jour said:
I think that parents have a duty to prepare their child for the majority language and culture. If I had a Chinese friend who solely spoke Mandrin and home, sent their child to a Mandrin school, was only involved in the local Chinese community, and disallowed all American TV and culture? I would be concerned. Yes, the children have language and communication, but what happens when they enter the "mainstream American" world? They won't have the skills they need.
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Oh, so are you saying that deaf parents prevent their deaf children from learning English?

I have never met any deaf parents who did that.
 
shel90 said:
Oh, so are you saying that deaf parents prevent their deaf children from learning English?

I have never met any deaf parents who did that.
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I'm saying that they are giving them only some of the tools that one might need to function in the world. That is absolutly their right and their decision, but no one has ever given me an answer to the questions I asked in that previous post.
 
faire_jour said:
I'm saying that they are giving them only some of the tools that one might need to function in the world. That is absolutly their right and their decision, but no one has ever given me an answer to the questions I asked in that previous post.
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With that anology about the Chinese people..that doesnt apply because as far as I know, all deaf parents of deaf children allow their children to learn English.

If you are regarding to spoken English, then it is like saying that deaf children with no speech skills but excellent literacy skills arent as good as those who have good speech skills. That is audism.

There are so many deaf people who have no oral skills but superior with literacy skills. Is that a big problem?

If it is, then the hearing world is really discriminating them all because they dont have oral skills. That is something the hearing world needs to change, not deaf people.
 
shel90 said:
With that anology about the Chinese people..that doesnt apply because as far as I know, all deaf parents of deaf children allow their children to learn English.

If you are regarding to spoken English, then it is like saying that deaf children with no speech skills but excellent literacy skills arent as good as those who have good speech skills. That is audism.

There are so many deaf people who have no oral skills but superior with literacy skills. Is that a big problem?

If it is, then the hearing world is really discriminating them all because they dont have oral skills. That is something the hearing world needs to change, not deaf people.
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I'm asking why NOT give them access to amplification and spoken language *too*? If your child doesn't do well, or doesn't like it, nothing lost. If your child does well, they gained a useful skill.

Why not?
 
I have noticed that in the last 2 months I have actually been exactly 1/2 and 1/2. I am very comfortable switching back and forth between English and ASL and can do so with ease. The interpreters I work with are used to be switching back and forth, sometimes mid-sentence. I just have taken to using which ever language communicates my thought most clearly. Of course in the Deaf community I just use ASL, and when I am just with hearing people (without an interpreter) I just speak and lip read. I definitely think I am totally comfortable with both and I am bilingual.
 
faire_jour said:
I'm asking why NOT give them access to amplification and spoken language *too*? If your child doesn't do well, or doesn't like it, nothing lost. If your child does well, they gained a useful skill.

Why not?
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There are some deaf people who do that but not all. Just like asking why dont hearing parents expose their hearing children to ASL. That is how it seen.

Oralism isnt as important in the Deaf community as literacy, full access to communication, information, and language as it is to hearing people. That's why the two cultures clash so often.
 
faire_jour said:
I'm asking why NOT give them access to amplification and spoken language *too*? If your child doesn't do well, or doesn't like it, nothing lost. If your child does well, they gained a useful skill.

Why not?
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If it is deaf parents of deaf children, it is something they are used to... they just don't see deafness as a disability. So they have no need to "Add" anything (CI/hearing aids/spoken/etc) that they never been exposed themselves. It's like hearing with hearing children.. they have no need to "substract" anything (take their hearing away so they can be like deaf people)
 
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