Dear Alex....

[Byrdie714]

(** Disclaimer**--Only Alex can lock this thread--not the Moderators. )

Dear Alex,

I just wanted to say that I think it's cool that you are the founder of this fantastic website as well as TagDeaf.com . No doubt that you had worked hard to make it successful and as one can see--quite popular.

Sometimes--one has to take an unpopular stand against the "status quo".

I am a little disappointed in your leadership skills in what had transpired this past week. I had the misfortune to have been put inadvertently in an awkward situation when it was discovered that a member created a "fake deaf website" using the All Deaf logo, as well as having multiple screen name accounts. Being a responsible member--I alerted the Moderators of this situation as it is a copyright infringement, defamation of All Deaf and a violation of terms of service agreement and forum rules which we all agreed to when we became members of All Deaf.

The passivity of the situation leaves a bad taste to the members of the All Deaf community that I have come to enjoy debating, sharing trials and triumphs, advice, sense of humor, and importantly, above all--friendships.

I am saddend to see the forum to come to this on your part as it shows favoritism, disregard of what you have worked for, lack of responsibility, lack of couth, lack of principle, and adherence to the Terms of service agreement, forum rules, and above all--a non-existent leadership.

I do hope that you realize this and come to a responsible conclusion as one can not be speaking out of "both sides of their mouths"--so to speak.

Now I hope that you don't ban me but you can ban me all you want as that is your decision. However.... remember this: I can always be a member of AD by having a different IP address, different SN, and a different email address.

I am taking a break from All Deaf starting today as I have some life transistions that are taking place in my private life, professional life, and hopefully will come back as Byrdie714 and to a better, sustainable and more successful All Deaf forum.

Sincerely your friend,
Byrdie714

[naisho]

I would like drop a friendly reminder, due to the nature that I feel the issue doesn't concern a majority of the users of alldeaf.

There are two sides to every story.

There are reasons for what I had done and that why I contacted the proper authority for approval prior to proceeding.

Should one have an issue with the things I am currently doing or have done, and/or feel wronged in some form or another, they are much more than welcome to address it in Private Messaging to the moderation team or even myself.

Should there be an issue with the way the website is ran, the proper direction for feedback is towards the administration team/or Alex.

I don't see why it would result in a ban, but it is saddening to see that you are planning to leave on intent of this.

Thank you.

[Byrdie714]

Originally Posted by naisho

There are reasons for what I had done and that why I contacted the proper authority for approval prior to proceeding.

If that was the case--then why complained to me when I reported you to the moderators in regards to the "fake deaf website"?

Obviously your motives says otherwise.

[naisho]

Because I questioned the basis of our friendship and trust.

I'm done here. I have no need to debate or continue.

Peace.

[Byrdie714]

Originally Posted by naisho

Because I questioned the basis of our friendship and trust.

I'm done here. I have no need to debate or continue.

Peace.

You were the one that made the decision in breaking friendship with me after I reported you to the Moderators.

The difference between you and I is that my offer of friendship is genuine, whereas yours isn't --when you shared the "fake deaf website" as that clearly shows your intentions of defamation of the AD website, regardless if you have permission or not.

After you did that--I lost my respect for you.

[shel90]

It sure would suck if u leave, Byrdie....

[Liebling:-)))]

Byrdie & naisho,

Sure, each person make mistakes but you both are good people. It´s sad to see your posts here... I hope Alex will resolve this issues with you both to peace.

I hope Alex will answer your post, Byrdie.

I hope you both won´t leave AD Forum because of this.

both...

[Frisky Feline]

apparently, alex had already settle down with each of you guys. yet, why bring it up again and make the thread to get alex attention again?

[Jiro]

Originally Posted by Byrdie714

You were the one that made the decision in breaking friendship with me after I reported you to the Moderators.

The difference between you and I is that my offer of friendship is genuine, whereas yours isn't --when you shared the "fake deaf website" as that clearly shows your intentions of defamation of the AD website, regardless if you have permission or not.

After you did that--I lost my respect for you.

Alex cleared him of wrongdoings because he understood Naisho's intention (which is not to defame AD) so I don't know why would you still think like that. Naisho has a very curious nature and he simply wants to dissect the forum software that AD uses - and I can do same. This is simply a case of unnecessary overreaction on your part and I hope you come to resolution that you misunderstood Naisho's intention.

[Byrdie714]

Originally Posted by Jiro

Alex cleared him of wrongdoings because he understood Naisho's intention (which is not to defame AD) so I don't know why would you still think like that. Naisho has a very curious nature and he simply wants to dissect the forum software that AD uses - and I can do same. This is simply a case of unnecessary overreaction on your part and I hope you come to resolution that you misunderstood Naisho's intention.

Good morning Jiro--I hope you are well rested from last night.

To answer your question/statement, it was after the fact that it was brought to the attention of the moderators and administrator which clearly shows his intentions.

Look at it from my viewpoint--legally and ethically.

Also...The funny thing is - Why would Naisho question my trust and friendship when he knew the fake ad website was the wrong thing to do to begin with?

[Bottesini]

Somehow I missed this. Was it a fake AD website? Why? What purpose?

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Somehow I missed this. Was it a fake AD website? Why? What purpose?

A fake website was created to give a banned member an opportunity to respond to his ban. I have to agree with Byrdie on this one. If a member has been banned, the mods have made the decision based on the information available to them. It is not for us, as members, to attempt to circumvent that by creating fake websites that could, in effect, create negative consequences not just for AD as a whole, but for various members as individuals.

The legal and ethical ramifications could be very serious, indeed. While intent may not have been malicious, good intentions do not always produce good results.

[shel90]

Originally Posted by jillio

A fake website was created to give a banned member an opportunity to respond to his ban.

Holy cow!!! That's amazing!

[naisho]

I ask of members not to assume what you do not know, please.

Who said that I intently created it for banned members?

Originally Posted by jillio

A fake website was created to give a banned member an opportunity to respond to his ban.

You?



If people want to settle this in private messaging I would gladly do so.

Again, I feel the need to step in because people are portraying me in negative light. But I am not continuing as to argue, just to solidify my points so the crowd does not turn the wrong way.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by naisho

I ask of members not to assume what you do not know, please.

Who said that I intently created it for banned members?

You?

If people want to settle this in private messaging I would gladly do so.

I stated that you created it to give "a banned member" not "banned members" a chance to respond to the events that led up to that specific ban. Do you deny that? Do you deny stating that you felt the mods had acted unfairly, or that you even stated on the fake website that you were negotiating with the mods to have this member reinstated?

Do you deny PMing me asking me for information regarding this banned member, and for my opinion regarding that member's ban?

[Jiro]

Originally Posted by Byrdie714

Good morning Jiro--I hope you are well rested from last night.

It was a very good time and I look forward to next one. Funny thing is.... while my ASL skill is very very basic, I actually know more of what's going on (in terms of convo) than in my hearing social group. and that is good!

Originally Posted by Byrdie714

To answer your question/statement, it was after the fact that it was brought to the attention of the moderators and administrator which clearly shows his intentions.

Look at it from my viewpoint--legally and ethically.

si si I perfectly understand. But what I meant is your continuing action & behavior toward him AFTER the incident. again - I understand your intention and reasoning. well good luck!

Originally Posted by Byrdie714

Also...The funny thing is - Why would Naisho question my trust and friendship when he knew the fake ad website was the wrong thing to do to begin with?

You'll have to ask naisho about that But I can tell you this - this whole thing began with his insatiable needs in investigating and finding out who the stalker was.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Jiro

It was a very good time and I look forward to next one. Funny thing is.... while my ASL skill is very very basic, I actually know more of what's going on (in terms of convo) than in my hearing social group. and that is good!


si si I perfectly understand. But what I meant is your continuing action & behavior toward him AFTER the incident. again - I understand your intention and reasoning. well good luck!


You'll have to ask naisho about that But I can tell you this - this whole thing began with his insatiable needs in investigating and finding out who the stalker was.

Which was something that he did not need to know. This was a situation for the mods to handle, and they did so to the best of their abilities, based on cummulative information at their disposal. In fact, the way that naisho responded could very well be perceived as stalking behavior in and of itself.

[shel90]

Oh boyeee...sounds like serious stuff here.

Hope nobody will get banned from this.

[naisho]

...


For everyone else to know what happened, if you care or if it even seems to be a big deal:


I, myself, as a web administrator, created a spoof of AD exact for exact without the members nor the posts. Just to see if I was capable of doing so. Nothing illegal was done as 99.9% of the forum CSS styling template of Jelsoft Vbulletin provides the coding for template modifications. The only .1% of copyright infringement was that I took the Alldeaf logo and added the words "FAKE" on it. Here's what it looks like:


There was no one on my board except for 4 testing accounts that I created, and one friend who was bored to come take a look. That was IT.

Then, one day, a week later.
I noticed a member I knew had been banned. Not knowing why, I asked him to visit my site to explain what happened, NOT seeking justice for him. Since I saw the banned next to his name.

He explained, I asked a member to come see what happened, instead I was reported to the moderators for creating an illegal site, leaving me in "what the --?" after I saw a PM come in regarding illegal actions. I sent this member a PM back, not once, but twice, asking why did he do this, as this wasn't what I asked for. The said member decided not to reply to question me about my ethics, and continued whatever he was doing. During that point, I assumed this person would go to authority above a friendship, so I decided I didn't need to become acquainted with people like this and severed ends. That was that, I did not go around trying to make a deal out of it.

As an aftermath of the reporting the violation,
I then spent 1.5 hours discussing with 6 moderators and an Administrator explaining my actions in front of all of them in real time. I asked later if the admin would like to proceed with charging me guilty of altering the logo, but it was dismissed. Then as a result of that discussion, overall, I was dismissed from initial charges.


Now I don't know why we are bringing this up again????


This is the absolute final word I have here.

If anyone wants revisit the decision or appeal it to ban me or naishojr for the acts of "what I did", feel free to do so.

[Jiro]

Originally Posted by jillio

A fake website was created to give a banned member an opportunity to respond to his ban. I have to agree with Byrdie on this one. If a member has been banned, the mods have made the decision based on the information available to them. It is not for us, as members, to attempt to circumvent that by creating fake websites that could, in effect, create negative consequences not just for AD as a whole, but for various members as individuals.

The legal and ethical ramifications could be very serious, indeed. While intent may not have been malicious, good intentions do not always produce good results.

I thought it is in your ethical nature to correct the misinformation/disinformation. apparently not.... Perhaps it is in your best interest to not participate in tag teaming in this nonsense - especially when Alex and mods have cleared him of wrongdoings and that ended everything.

why re-open the can of worm?

[jillio]

Originally Posted by shel90

Oh boyeee...sounds like serious stuff here.

Hope nobody will get banned from this.

I hope not either, Shel. But when I saw the thread, I felt it was important for me to put in my 2 cents, as this boils down to an ethical issue. I cannot compromise my ethics.

[Jiro]

Originally Posted by jillio

Which was something that he did not need to know. This was a situation for the mods to handle, and they did so to the best of their abilities, based on cummulative information at their disposal.

I have done the investigation of my own which I believe I am the first to know the identity of stalker and I have taken immediate steps to prevent other members from harm. Beside - who are you to say who does or doesn't need to know? Leave that to mods to decide.

Originally Posted by jillio

In fact, the way that naisho responded could very well be perceived as stalking behavior in and of itself.

perhaps you should get a 2nd opinion consult

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Jiro

I thought it is in your ethical nature to correct the misinformation/disinformation. apparently not.... Perhaps it is in your best interest to not participate in tag teaming in this nonsense - especially when Alex and mods have cleared him of wrongdoings and that ended everything.

why re-open the can of worm?

First of all, I did not open originally, nor re-open this "can of worms". Secondly, it is an important part of my ethical guidelines that I insure that activities that could serve to harm another individual are brought to light in order that that individual be protected. The actions of one individual could very well have put another member in danger. At the very least, it justified a behavior that is not only illegal, but one that needed to be addressed from a safety and liability perspective.

I would advise you not to attempt to second guess the ethical obligations I am bound by, as you have no idea what those codes are.

[Jiro]

Originally Posted by jillio

First of all, I did not open originally, nor re-open this "can of worms". Secondly, it is an important part of my ethical guidelines that I insure that activities that could serve to harm another individual are brought to light in order that that individual be protected. The actions of one individual could very well have put another member in danger. At the very least, it justified a behavior that is not only illegal, but one that needed to be addressed from a safety and liability perspective.

I would advise you not to attempt to second guess the ethical obligations I am bound by, as you have no idea what those codes are.

By participating in this thread and tag-teaming with Byrdie - you are re-opening this can of worm. Secondly - I understand this issue quite perfectly and you are infamous for cleverly wording the situation to your favor. That alone is a violation of your ethical obligations and this is not the first time

Again - this is a case of unnecessary overreaction and this should be taken to PM with the mods.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Jiro

I have done the investigation of my own which I believe I am the first to know the identity of stalker and I have taken immediate steps to prevent other members from harm. Beside - who are you to say who does or doesn't need to know? Leave that to mods to decide.


perhaps you should get a 2nd opinion consult

Exactly. Leave it to the mods to respond. Do not invite said person to the fake website to justify behavior that is illegal, has been substantiated, and in the mods opinion, was severe enough to warrant a ban.

It is great that you see yourself as some sort of vigilante out to protect other members, but the fact of the matter is, you overstepped your bounds, as well, when you made statements that could be perceived as threatening.

It doesn't matter who was the "first to know the identity of the stalker". Now you are resorting to juvenile justification for unjustifiable behavior.

The fact of the matter is, this is a situation that should have been left to the mods to deal with. Stalking is a serious threat, and is taken seriously by anyone who deals with this type of individual. It is not a game to be undertaken by those with no experience, and a sense of overblown justice for all.

[Byrdie714]

Originally Posted by Jiro

By participating in this thread and tag-teaming with Byrdie - you are re-opening this can of worm. Secondly - I understand this issue quite perfectly and you are infamous for cleverly wording the situation to your favor. That alone is a violation of your ethical obligations and this is not the first time

Again - this is a case of unnecessary overreaction and this should be taken to PM with the mods.

No different than you are by tag-teaming with Naisho.

I don't think you understand the ethical side of this issue that has put me into a quandry this past week. I am also bound by a code of ethics as well.

Afterall the terms of agreement and the forum rules that were put into place on All Deaf was put in place for protection of all involved and can't be "cherry-pickin' " in terms of who gets to abide by it and who doesn't.

[Jiro]

Originally Posted by jillio

Exactly. Leave it to the mods to respond. Do not invite said person to the fake website to justify behavior that is illegal, has been substantiated, and in the mods opinion, was severe enough to warrant a ban.

then why are you participating in this and continuing to paint naisho as a stalker? Shame on you.

Originally Posted by jillio

It is great that you see yourself as some sort of vigilante out to protect other members, but the fact of the matter is, you overstepped your bounds, as well, when you made statements that could be perceived as threatening.

do you even know what I said or did beside that so-called threatening post? btw - in case you forget, I was not banned nor warned for that post because apparently - you overreacted.

Originally Posted by jillio

It doesn't matter who was the "first to know the identity of the stalker". Now you are resorting to juvenile justification for unjustifiable behavior.

The fact of the matter is, this is a situation that should have been left to the mods to deal with. Stalking is a serious threat, and is taken seriously by anyone who deals with this type of individual. It is not a game to be undertaken by those with no experience, and a sense of overblown justice for all.

right... and do they have any law degree? any experience in criminal investigation? counseling? In case you didn't know - I used to be a non-paid web investigator for cyber-fraud org which was defunct quite a while ago because of some bullshit battle with bigger name cyberfraud org named CyberAngels. I have wrote documentations for them regarding scams and stalking. Mind you - that is by no means expressing my interest in being mod. I left that ship a long time ago and I have no interest in being one. I like my "vigilante role" in here as you painted me.

[Jiro]

Originally Posted by Byrdie714

No different than you are by tag-teaming with Naisho.

I don't think you understand the ethical side of this issue that has put me into a quandry this past week. I am also bound by a code of ethics as well.

Afterall the terms of agreement and the forum rules that were put into place on All Deaf was put in place for protection of all involved and can't be "cherry-pickin' " in terms of who gets to abide by it and who doesn't.

again - all approved and cleared by mods and the man above. take it up to them. no need to spill it here.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Jiro

then why are you participating in this and continuing to paint naisho as a stalker? Shame on you.


do you even know what I said or did beside that so-called threatening post? btw - in case you forget, I was not banned nor warned for that post because apparently - you overreacted.


right... and do they have any law degree? any experience in criminal investigation? counseling? In case you didn't know - I used to be a non-paid web investigator for cyber-fraud org which was defunct a few years ago. I have wrote documentations for them regarding scams and stalking. Mind you - that is by no means expressing my interest in being mod. I left that ship a long time ago and I have no interest in being one. I like my "vigilante role" in here as you painted me.

So you were a volunteer. And in case you didn't know, there was someone with a law degree and two degrees in counseling involved. Perhaps, as a volunteer, you would do well to listen to those whose very license rests on upholding the ethical standards of their practices.

[Jiro]

Originally Posted by jillio

So you were a volunteer. And in case you didn't know, there was someone with a law degree and two degrees in counseling involved. Perhaps, as a volunteer, you would do well to listen to those whose very license rests on upholding the ethical standards of their practices.

and guess how I learned it Again, in case you didn't know - I did not offer any such counseling or legal advice. I simply took necessary steps within the best of my ability to handle this situation privately.... which is what you guys should have done.

Curious - are you hired or contracted by AD to serve as a counselor?

btw - that previous position required the knowledge of cyber laws and the technical expertise needed to investigate the matter. I was vetted by them